News Is the Israel Wall a symbol of oppression?

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The UN General Assembly passed a resolution urging Israel to dismantle the barrier separating it from the West Bank, which has been labeled the "Apartheid Wall" by critics, with a vote of 150 in favor, 6 against, and 10 abstentions. Israel, however, remains resolute in continuing its construction, citing security concerns and a reduction in terrorist attacks since the wall's erection. The debate centers on the wall's location, with arguments that it encroaches on Palestinian territory and disrupts daily life for Palestinians, while supporters claim it is a necessary measure for Israeli safety. The discussion also touches on broader themes of oppression, historical parallels to apartheid and Nazi Germany, and the portrayal of Palestinians in Israeli education, which some argue fosters animosity and misunderstanding. The conversation reflects deep divisions over the conflict, with participants expressing strong opinions on both sides regarding the legitimacy of actions taken by Israel and the Palestinians.
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http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1560739,00.html

The UN General Assembly overwhelmingly approved a resolution demanding that Israel comply with a world court decision and tear down the barrier it is building to seal off the West Bank. But a defiant Israel vowed to continue construction.

Tuesday's vote was 150 in favour, 6 opposed including the United States, and 10 abstentions.

What are your views on the wall?

My view: It's been nicknamed the "Apartheid Wall" and it dwarfs the Berlin Wall. It's just a massive symbol of oppression which should not exist in todays's society. Why they were allowed to build it is beyond me and I personally think it should go. Also, as I asked earlier, WHY did the US vote in favour of it staying up? :confused: :confused:
 
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well, part of the wall was built inside palestinian territory... furthermore, it made it impossible for the already compromized regular palestinians to get to school and work on the other side... I'm personally beginning to believe that israel wants to create terrorism, so that they have an excuse for getting rid of the palestinians so israel can be spread across the entire area...
nuff said...
 
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This barrier is just a temporary border line between
Israel and the Palestinian territories, a natural
continuation of a state border. Something like
this should have been built a long time ago but
internal politics prevented it. This border, even though
partly built for now and progressing slowly, has already
prevented the death of 200-300 Israeli citizens in
terrorist attacks for the past year or so, compared
to statistics of an earlier year. It also saved the lives
of some innocent Palestinians who could've suffered
due to higher Israeli anti-terrorist activities.

The whole argument is not about its existence but rather
about its location. It is not located on the 1967 lines.
(The difference is not serious - according to the recent plans.)
However, it would be illogical for Israel to errect a border
there. Since the Palestinian leadership currently has
no ability of proper government, chaos reigns in the Palestinian
territories and terrorist organizations dictate their own rule,
Israel has no one to nagotiate with for anything, and all it
can do is await better times while it rightfully protects itself.
 
btw, these references to Appertheid or Berlin or
completely out of place. Israel and the PA have different
defined territories and different people. There are
no simularities here whatsoever.

The US vote is abvious, right and brave. The US,
unlike so many other countries cares about peace
in its borders and in the world and the lives of
people, a peace which is currently threathened by
terrorism. And is not afraid of the Muslim dictatorships
and terrorist warlords, who strangely enough, are
considerd fully ligitimate in their pretty UN seats.
 
Why doesn't anyone compare it to the Great Wall of China? :frown:
 
Quite right.
But, we don't want to insult the Mongols. :wink:
 
Israel is doing today what Germany did in the approach to WW2.
 
Adam said:
Israel is doing today what Germany did in the approach to WW2.
Who was constantly attacking Germany "in the approach to WW2?"
 
Wasn't France the one fortifying prior to WWII? :-p
 
  • #10
As Israel has long been the dominant military force in the mid-east one wonders why they did not exercise their ability to dominate all their neighbors. That they haven’t is a remarkable testament to the noble qualities of the Israel citizen. The despotic leaders of the surrounding countries and the Palestinians should be very happy the Israelis merely built a wall.

In Adam speak; the Germans constructed La Ligne Maginot to fend off the French.
 
  • #11
Adam said:
Israel is doing today what Germany did in the approach to WW2.
Lebensraum und Grossraumwirtschaft, ja Herr Adam?

Am I the only one who caught Ariel Shiron's spellbinding speech on Temple Mount justifying territorial expansion to a mesmerized Israeli horde.
 
  • #12
GENIERE said:
As Israel has long been the dominant military force in the mid-east one wonders why they did not exercise their ability to dominate all their neighbors. That they haven’t is a remarkable testament to the noble qualities of the Israel citizen. The despotic leaders of the surrounding countries and the Palestinians should be very happy the Israelis merely built a wall.
Yes, I think they have shown remarkable restraint for the past 35 years. I think part of the reason they have is we have them on a leash. And the corollary to that is that if we stop giving them aid, the leash comes off...
 
  • #13
Really, Russ ?
How about - they just wan'na live in peace and just
be left the FXXX alone by all those crazy nutcases. :wink:
 
  • #14
drag said:
Really, Russ ?
How about - they just wan'na live in peace and just
be left the FXXX alone by all those crazy nutcases. :wink:
Yeah, wink...

...but if Canadians were blowing up busses and pizza parlors full of civilians on a weekly basis, we wouldn't wait 35 years to overrun them.
 
  • #15
russ_watters said:
Who was constantly attacking Germany "in the approach to WW2?"

You think there were no Jewish groups, communists, liberals, homsexuals, gypsies, blacks, and others who were annoyed with what Hitler was doing?
 
  • #16
GENIERE said:
In Adam speak; the Germans constructed La Ligne Maginot to fend off the French.
Germany:
- Forced relocations into controllable areas.
- Killing any leaders of the subject group.
- Basically oppressing the hell out of them.
- Teaching their own kids that Israelis are all thieving, murdering, sub-human scum.

Israel:
- Forced relocations into controllable areas.
- Killing any leaders of the subject group.
- Basically oppressing the hell out of them.
- Teaching their own kids that Palestinians are all thieving, murdering, sub-human scum.
 
  • #17
Jews:
- Were not carrying out regular attacks on civilian targets.
- Did not teach children that all Germans were subhuman scum.

Palestinians:
- Do carry out regular attacks on Israeli civilians.
- Do teach that Jews are subhuman scum.

When did your world get so one-dimensional, Adam?
 
  • #18
loseyourname said:
Jews:
- Were not carrying out regular attacks on civilian targets.
- Did not teach children that all Germans were subhuman scum.

Palestinians:
- Do carry out regular attacks on Israeli civilians.
- Do teach that Jews are subhuman scum.

Palestinians:
- Are not carrying out regular attacks on civilian targets.
- Do not teach children than Jews are subhuman scum.

Israelis:
- Do carry out regular attacks on civilian targets.
- Do teach their children that Palestinians are subhuman scum.

Some Palestinians, not "Palestinians", attack civilian targets. The IDF does it as a matter of policy.

loseyourname said:
When did your world get so one-dimensional, Adam?

The assertion that my world is one-dimensional lacks support. You waste energy by typing such drivel.

And now, for the educational benefit of those who clearly don't observe the world around them...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/DBFFC9EA-FB90-4A06-9C30-091D9B118EEE.htm
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8249433%255E1702,00.html
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=499003
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7567019%255E1702,00.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B6E27ADF-9E5B-45CD-A4CD-403A3BCF3D39.htm
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7543145%255E401,00.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/EE06A7BC-F8D2-4CE9-8A9F-DC2A62B2C133.htm
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/67979658-79FE-4CD1-83A4-7D378A081848.htm
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7473991%255E401,00.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/AE871B47-A5D9-428E-B8E5-26E52D387622.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,917834,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4629052-103681,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2828985.stm
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2828985.stm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/unitedstates/unpolicy/gen2003/0115us.htm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/veto/2002/1223israel.htm

HISTORY OF THE ISRAELI/PALESTINIAN CONFLICT

GENERAL:
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/ec8db69f77e7a33e052567270057e591/3b58e8d0adf62b5f852561230077c62d
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/025974039acfb171852560de00548bbe

HISTORY:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/d442111e70e417e3802564740045a309
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/c426c561856178058025647400468f80
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/40af4c8615bc9837802564740046f767

UN RESOLUTIONS:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/7f0af2bd897689b785256c330061d253
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/59210ce6d04aef61852560c3005da209?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,242
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/7fb7c26fcbe80a31852560c50065f878?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,338

MAPS:
http://domino.un.org/maps/pal_maps.htm
 
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  • #19
Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

PART ONE

Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs
Date:15/05/2001


Israeli school textbooks as well as children's storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray
Palestinians and Arabs as "murderers," "rioters," "suspicious," and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. Bar-Tal concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel.

"The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel. Within this frame of reference, Arabs were delegitimized by the use of such labels as 'robbers,' 'bloodthirsty,' and 'killers,'" said Professor Bar- Tal, adding that there has been little positive revision in the curriculum over the years.

Bar-Tal pointed out that Israeli textbooks continue to present Jews as industrious, brave and determined to cope with the difficulties of "improving the country in ways they believe the Arabs are incapable of."

Hebrew-language geography books from the 1950s through 1970s focused on the glory of Israel's ancient past and how the land was "neglected and destroyed" by the Arabs until the Jews returned from their forced exile and revived it "with the help of the Zionist movement."

"This attitude served to justify the return of the Jews, implying that they care enough about the country to turn the swamps and deserts into blossoming farmland; this effectively delegitimizes the Arab claim to the same land," Bar-Tal told the Washington Report. "The message was that the Palestinians were primitive and neglected the country and did not cultivate the land."

This message, continued Bar-Tal, was further emphasized in textbooks by the use of blatant negative stereotyping which featured Arabs as: "unenlightened, inferior, fatalistic, unproductive and apathetic." Further, according to the textbooks, the Arabs were "tribal, vengeful, exotic, poor, sick, dirty, noisy, colored" and "they burn, murder, destroy, and are easily inflamed."

Textbooks currently being used in the Israeli school system, says Bar-Tal, contain less direct denigration of Arabs but continue to stereotype them negatively when referring to them. He pointed out that Hebrew-as well as Arabic-language textbooks used in elementary and junior high schools contain very few references either to Arabs or to Arab-Jewish relations. The coordinator of a Palestinian NGO in Israel said that major historical events hardly get a mention either.

"When I was in high school 12 years ago, the date '1948' barely appeared in any textbooks except for a mention that there was a conflict, Palestinians refused to accept a U.N. solution and ran away instead," said Jamal Atamneh, coordinator of the Arab Education Committee in Support of Local Councils, a Haifa-based NGO. "Today the idea communicated to schoolchildren is basically the same: there are winners and losers in every conflict. When they teach about 'peace and co-existence,' it is to teach us how to get along with Jews."

Atamneh explained that textbooks used by the nearly one million Arab Israelis (one-fifth of Israel's population) are in Arabic but are written by and issued from the Israeli Ministry of Education, where Palestinians have no influence or input.

"Fewer than 1 percent of the jobs in the Education Ministry, not counting teachers, are held by Palestinians," Atamneh said. "For the past 15 years, not one new Palestinian academic has been placed in a high position in the ministry. There are no Palestinians involved in preparing the Arabic-language curriculum [and] obviously, there is no such thing as affirmative action in Israel."
 
  • #20
Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

PART TWO

Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs
Date:15/05/2001

In addition, there are no Arabic-language universities in Israel. Haifa University, Atamneh points out, has had a steady 20 percent Arab student population for the past 20 years. "How can that figure have remained the same after all these years when the population in the north [of Israel] has grown to over 50 percent Arab?"

Answering his own question, Atamneh rattles off statistics that reflect excellent high school scores among Arab students which he contrasts to their subsequent lower-than-average performance in Hebrew-language college entrance exams given by the state.

"No major scholarships have ever been awarded to an Arab; there are no dorms for Arabs and no college-related jobs or financial aid programs. They justify this legal discrimination by the fact that we do not serve in the army. There are numerous blatant and official methods used to keep Palestinian Arabs out of the universities."

Absence of Palestinian Identity in Schoolbooks

Dr. Eli Podeh, lecturer in the Department of Islamic Studies and Middle East History at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, says that while certain changes in Israeli textbooks are slowly being implemented, the discussion of Palestinian national and civil identity is never touched upon.

"Passages from 'experts' about the existence of a Palestinian identity were introduced, but in general it appeared that the
textbook authors were not eager to adopt it," said Dr. Podeh, adding that "the connection between Palestinians in Israel and Arabs in Arab countries is not discussed. Especially evident is the lack of a discussion on the orientation of Palestinians to the [occupied] territories.
"While new textbooks attempt to correct some of the earlier distortions, these books as well contain overt and covert fabrications," said Dr. Podeh. "The establishment has preferred-or felt itself forced-to encourage the cover-up and condemn the perplexity."

One Israeli public high school student told the Washington Report that the contents of the schoolbooks and the viewpoints expressed by some teachers indeed have a lasting negative effect on youngsters' attitudes toward Palestinians.

"Our books basically tell us that everything the Jews do is fine and legitimate and Arabs are wrong and violent and are trying to exterminate us," said Daniel Banvolegyi, a 17-year-old high school student in Jerusalem.

"We are accustomed to hearing the same thing, only one side of the story. They teach us that Israel became a state in 1948 and that the Arabs started a war. They don't mention what happened to the Arabs-they never mention anything about refugees or Arabs having to leave their towns and homes," said Banvolegyi.

Banvolegyi, who will be a high school senior this fall, and then will be drafted into the Israeli army next summer, said he argues with his friends about what he regards as racism in the textbooks and on the part of the teachers. He pointed out a worrisome example of how damaging the textbooks and prevailing attitudes can be.

"One kid told me he was angry because of something he read or discussed in school and that he felt like punching the first Arab he saw," said Banvolegyi. "Instead of teaching tolerance and reconciliation, the books and some teachers' attitudes are increasing hatred for Arabs."

Banvolegyi spoke about his schoolmates who, he says, "are dying to go into combat and kill Arabs. I try to talk to them but they say I don't care about this country. But I do care and that's why I tell them peace and justice are the only ways to work things out."

Racist Israeli Upbringing

Considering what the schools have to offer, both Banvolegyi and Atamneh agree that the oral tradition is one of the few ways to get the story straight.

"Unfortunately Israeli children's books are not an option for promoting equality in this society," said Atamneh, citing a book
written by Israeli writer/researcher Adir Cohen called An Ugly Face in the Mirror.

Cohen's book is a study of the nature of children's upbringing in Israel, concentrating on how the historical establishment sees and portrays Arab Palestinians as well as how Jewish Israeli children perceive Palestinians. One section of the book was based on the results of a survey taken of a group of 4th to 6th grade Jewish students at a school in Haifa. The pupils were asked five questions about their attitude toward Arabs, how they recognize them and how they relate to them. The results were as shocking as they were disturbing:

Seventy five percent of the children described the "Arab" as a murderer, one who kidnaps children, a criminal and a terrorist. Eighty percent said they saw the Arab as someone dirty with a terrifying face. Ninety percent of the students stated they believe that Palestinians have no rights whatsoever to the land in Israel or Palestine

Cohen also researched 1,700 Israeli children's books published after 1967. He found that 520 of the books contained humiliating, negative descriptions of Palestinians. He also took pains to break down the descriptions:

Sixty six percent of the 520 books refer to Arabs as violent; 52 percent as evil; 37 percent as liars; 31 percent as greedy; 28 percent as two-faced; 27 percent as traitors, etc.

Cohen points out that the authors of these children's books effectively instill hatred toward Arabs by means of stripping them of their human nature and classifying them in another category. In a sampling of 86 books, Cohen counted the following descriptions used to dehumanize Arabs: Murderer was used 21 times; snake, 6 times; dirty, 9 times; vicious animal, 17 times; bloodthirsty, 21 times; warmonger, 17 times; killer, 13 times; believer in myths, 9 times; and a camel's hump, 2 times.

Cohen's study concludes that such descriptions of Arabs are part and parcel of convictions and a culture rampant in Hebrew literature and history books. He writes that Israeli authors and writers confess to deliberately portraying the Arab character in this way, particularly to their younger audience, in order to influence their outlook early on so as to prepare them to deal with Arabs.

"So you can see that if you grew up reading or studying from these books, you'd never know anything else," said Atamneh.

"But in the case of Palestinians, we grow up 500 meters away from what used to be a town or village and is now a Jewish settlement. Our parents and grandparents tell us all about it; endlessly they talk about it. It's the only way."

Maureen Meehan is a free-lance journalist who covers the West Bank and Jerusalem.
 
  • #21
Great. We are supposed to educated by Al Jazeera and The Guardian.
 
  • #22
Al Jazeera is a very good news source. As is news.com.au. The BBC is quite good too. The Independent is ok. Globalpolicy has well-researched articles. The UN is generally a rather good source if information too.

Got any other logical fallacies and limp objections to make?
 
  • #23
Al Jazeera is a very good news source.

Good news source = agrees with Adam's leftist ideals.
 
  • #24
Yay. Another logical fallacy. When you decide to start making sense, come back and feel free to attempt an adult discussion.
 
  • #25
Yay. Another logical fallacy.

Would you care to explain?
 
  • #26
Adam said:
Palestinians:
- Are not carrying out regular attacks on civilian targets.
- Do not teach children than Jews are subhuman scum.

Israelis:
- Do carry out regular attacks on civilian targets.
- Do teach their children that Palestinians are subhuman scum.

Some Palestinians, not "Palestinians", attack civilian targets. The IDF does it as a matter of policy.

Now there's a dubious claim if I ever heard one. Given that the Palestinians have no formal military structure, what exactly are you considering to be a "civilian target" here?

The fact remains that the Jews were doing nothing of harm to Germany, and no Jews were carrying out any attacks on any targets, civilian or otherwise. That is not the case with the Palestinians in Israel. Your analogy is terrible flawed, partisan, and misleading and you know it. You love to use these dramatic example that don't apply to make a point you don't have. I've never once seen you present a reasonable, diplomatic assessment of a situation.

The assertion that my world is one-dimensional lacks support. You waste energy by typing such drivel.

You're living in the same world as Bush. There is good, and there is evil. Only one side is to blame in every conflict, and it is always the side that the US supports. The world is not that one-dimensional. To pretend that the Palestinians are blameless in this conflict and that the Israelis are behaving like the Nazis did in the 30's is ridiculous and does nothing to advance the Palestinian cause. People like you just make them look even worse. You are doing them a disservice. You would be better to keep your mouth completely shut and let humans that are capable of a multifaceted, complex analysis of military ethnic struggles speak for them.

All you do is polarize this forum and start arguments. Grow up.
 
  • #27
At the end of Adam’s amusing citation: “ Maureen Meehan is a free-lance journalist who covers the West Bank and Jerusalem.”

Maureen Meehan is a free-lance journalist based in the West Bank. She is married to Jiries Atrash, a Palestinian Authority official in Jericho.

I always ask Rush Limbaugh when searching for the un-biased truth.
 
  • #28
loseyourname said:
Now there's a dubious claim if I ever heard one. Given that the Palestinians have no formal military structure, what exactly are you considering to be a "civilian target" here?
Are you claiming there are no innocent civilian Palestinians? If not, then what are you whinging about?

The fact remains that the Jews were doing nothing of harm to Germany, and no Jews were carrying out any attacks on any targets, civilian or otherwise.
Once again, you need to go to school and learn a little history. You may begin with these:
http://www.azenphonypress.com/books/forjews.html
http://www.pww.org/past-weeks-2000/The%20anti%20fascist%20resistance.htm
http://www.ushmm.org/research/jrbiblio/poland.htm
http://www.ushmm.org/research/
http://www.holocaust.com.au/mm/jewishresistence.htm
http://www.holocaust.com.au/mm/j_germany39.htm
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/arts/litResis.htm
http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/cooperation-resistance.shtml
http://www.rossel.net/Holocaust11.htm
http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/resistance.htm

If you had even the slightest familiarity with history, you would know that Jewish fighters formed groups all over the place and performed attacks against NAZI personnel and assets.

You're living in the same world as Bush. There is good, and there is evil. Only one side is to blame in every conflict, and it is always the side that the US supports.
Can you support this assertion?

All you do is polarize this forum and start arguments. Grow up.
I don't make the facts, I just report the facts. An adult might realize this. Read the information I supply, and learn.
 
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  • #29
GENIERE said:
At the end of Adam’s amusing citation: “ Maureen Meehan is a free-lance journalist who covers the West Bank and Jerusalem.”

Maureen Meehan is a free-lance journalist based in the West Bank. She is married to Jiries Atrash, a Palestinian Authority official in Jericho.

I always ask Rush Limbaugh when searching for the un-biased truth.

Once again, a logical fallacy. Do you have anything to say about the material, or only about the person?

Read and learn:
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#hominem
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_fall_adhominem_index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Then come back and contribute something.
 
  • #30
In fact, does anyone have anything other than an ad hominem to offer? Can anyone actually respond to the information supplied?
 
  • #31
Hurkyl said:
Would you care to explain?
See the post above, and the links regarding ad hominem responses.
 
  • #32
Adam said:
Are you claiming there are no innocent civilian Palestinians? If not, then what are you whinging about?

I don't make overly simply, one-dimensional claims the way you do. But the fact remains, Israel, for the most part, targets terrorists. Innocents that are killed are collateral. The Palestinians, on the other hand, largely target innocent civilians. If you criticize one side, why don't you criticize the other?

If you had even the slightest familiarity with history, you would know that Jewish fighters formed groups all over the place and performed attacks against NAZI personnel and assets.

You can't honestly be arguing that the Jews in the 30's were as guilty as the Palestinians are today because they fought back - and not nearly to the same extent - after the Nazis began imprisoning them and shipping them off to ghettos and death camps.

Where are the parallels Adam? Is Israel confiscating every single Palestinian business and bank account in the country? Are they hauling away every single Palestinian to forced-labor camps? Look, the Palestinians have a damn good case. Neither side is blameless here, and Israel may very well just as guilty. But you are hardly doing Palestine justice by presenting their case in such a skewed, one-dimensional manner.

Furthermore, why do you keep whining about ad-hominem attacks when in nearly every single post you insult someone's intelligence, call them ignorant, or tell them to slap their parent's? Do you honestly think you are being funny? Did you just get out of the 4th grade?

Can you support this assertion?

Are you kidding me? Every post you've made has been achived. Look through them yourself. Look at the amount of fights you get into and compare yourself with other users. If you have such strong evidential backing for your arguments, then present it and shut up. You don't need to get combative and insulting. You are degrading the forum and yourself.
 
  • #33
loseyourname said:
I don't make overly simply, one-dimensional claims the way you do.
Support the assertion or stop making such wild accusations.

But the fact remains, Israel, for the most part, targets terrorists. Innocents that are killed are collateral. The Palestinians, on the other hand, largely target innocent civilians.
Once again, read and learn:
http://www.dci-pal.org/statistics/indstats/total2002.html
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/Palestinian_killed_fact_sheet.htm

Just do a google search on the number of deaths. The IDF has killed thousands of civilians in the past few years. About thrice the number of civilians killed by all the other terrorist groups there combined.

And, once again, it is not "Palestinians" responsible. Please rid yourself of that ridiculously bigoted idea. It is a small minority of people. Unless you think Tim McVeigh being a terrorist makes "Americans" terrorists?

If you criticize one side, why don't you criticize the other?
I do. But this thread is about the ethnic cleansing activities of Israel. Now before you whinge about that too, please read the definition of ethnic cleansing: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic cleansing

You can't honestly be arguing that the Jews in the 30's were as guilty as the Palestinians are today because they fought back - and not nearly to the same extent - after the Nazis began imprisoning them and shipping them off to ghettos and death camps.
You really didn't read the information supplied, did you? Israel is doing today exactly what the NAZIs did prior to WW2. I have supplied the information. Read it. Learn something. Israel is forcing Palestinians into ghettos. Israel is forcing Palestinians to wear markers. Israel is killing huge numbers of Palestinian civilians. This is all well documented. And some few Palestinians are killing Israelis, just as some few Jews before and during WW2 were killing Germans. It is a myth that the Jews during WW2 did nothing to resist.

Where are the parallels Adam? Is Israel confiscating every single Palestinian business and bank account in the country? Are they hauling away every single Palestinian to forced-labor camps?
Please read again what I have written, rather than what you imagine I have written. Israel is currently doing what the NAZIs did prior to WW2. The death camps didn't really get going until during WW2, or so I believe.

Look, the Palestinians have a damn good case. Neither side is blameless here, and Israel may very well just as guilty.
The state of Israel and the few Palestinian terrorists are equally guilty.

But you are hardly doing Palestine justice by presenting their case in such a skewed, one-dimensional manner.
I have presented facts. None of these have been refuted. You have focused entirely on me, personally.

Furthermore, why do you keep whining about ad-hominem attacks when in nearly every single post you insult someone's intelligence, call them ignorant, or tell them to slap their parent's? Do you honestly think you are being funny? Did you just get out of the 4th grade?
And there we go again. Ad hominems. I have presented loads of information. Read it and learn.

Are you kidding me? Every post you've made has been achived. Look through them yourself.
Don't try to shift the burden. The burden of proof rests squarely on your shoulders. Prove your words or sit in the corner like a good lad.

If you have such strong evidential backing for your arguments, then present it and shut up.
Done. Now read it.

You don't need to get combative and insulting. You are degrading the forum and yourself.
Please read through your collection of ad hominems in this thread.
 
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  • #34
Adam said:
In fact, does anyone have anything other than an ad hominem to offer? Can anyone actually respond to the information supplied?

Anyone at all?
 
  • #35
Huh. I just read through the entire thread again. I am the only one who has provided information on the subject. Typical.
 
  • #36
Many of us can have written on our tombstone:

I lived, I hated, i died!
 
  • #37
I read all your links Adam, i see nothing of value to this discussion.

Adam said:
And, once again, it is not "Palestinians" responsible. Please rid yourself of that ridiculously bigoted idea. It is a small minority of people. Unless you think Tim McVeigh being a terrorist makes "Americans" terrorists?

Its also not israelis responsible. Its a small group of Israelis who have actually killed Palestinians. This group is probably smaller than the palestinian terror groups. Yet you portray all Israelis as nazis. This is what appears to be one dimensional Adam, and after careful studying i can confirm your discussions are often one dimensional objects.
 
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  • #38
See the post above, and the links regarding ad hominem responses.

Maybe you should read your own links. Argumentum ad hominem is not always a fallacy.
 
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  • #39
studentx said:
Its also not israelis responsible. Its a small group of Israelis who have actually killed Palestinians. This group is probably smaller than the palestinian terror groups.
Actually this Israeli group has over 1.5 million members, and an annual budget of more than nine billion US dollars. It's called the Israeli Defence Force.

Yet you portray all Israelis as nazis.
Please support this assertion.
 
  • #40
Hurkyl said:
Maybe you should read your own links. Argumentum ad hominem is not always a fallacy.

Please read this thread. All occurences of it here are.
 
  • #41
GENIERE said:
Many of us can have written on our tombstone:

I lived, I hated, i died!

It is true, many can. I won't, as I don't particularly hate anyone. If you are referring to the IDF, then I think it is important to understand the indoctrination which occurs within the ranks. They are basically taught that all Palestinians, and all Arabs, are murdering scum who must be treated with extreme suspicion at best.
 
  • #43
Please read this thread. All occurences of it here are.

If you read your links, you'd also know that the proper refutation of a fallacious argumentum ad hominem isn't simply calling it fallacious.
 
  • #44
Simply identifying an ad hominem, to how what it is, is enough to nullify it as a logical argument. If it is a logical fallacy, it is not a logical argument. Points raised in conjunction with the logical fallacy may be rational (I haven't seen any in this thread), but they are rarely so.
 
  • #45
Anyway, Hurkyl, are you going to continue swimming with the school and focus on Adam The Magnificent, or will you make an attempt at commenting on the material I have provided? Once again, I am thus far the only person to provide something other than a personal opinion.
 
  • #46
Actually I'm more interested in the argumentation than the subject of the debate. I don't mean to be insulting, but I simply don't understand why you think you're making a point.
 
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  • #47
Hurkyl said:
Actually I'm more interested in the argumentation than the subject of the debate. I don't mean to be insulting, but I simply don't understand why you think you're making a point.
That's what I've always considered to be the most intriguing thing about Adam.
 
  • #48
If you read other peoples' posts in this thread, you will not see information provided, as I have done. You will see:
  • Attacks on the credibility of the sources of information, including news services (including USA news services), the United Nations, even dictionaries.
  • Comments about my alleged bias, which has zero to do with the information presented, and is actually unidentified thus far by other users.
  • Blind refusal to even peruse the information supplied.
  • Flat out insults such as "Grow up".
  • Many accusations made without any support.
  • And from two PF mentors, a continuing effort to shift the focus of the thread toward a user, taking it off topic.

Once again, kids: Try to focus on the topic, and on the material provided.
 
  • #49
Strange, Adam... :wink:
Living in Australia, you probably know about
Israeli school textbooks more than me... :biggrin:
It's just that, I've been trying to remember
Israeli school books which portray arabs as
evil murderers and couldn't remember any.
Then again, I've only studied in an Israeli school
starting from the fourth grade, maybe it was
during the first 3 years that I missed. :wink:

Anyway, the best part, is that you consider
information coming from an organization that
accepts Iran and the US as having an equal status
(security council excluded) and allows both to equally
affect that information - a fully trustworthy source.
UN information is fitted for UN policy, UN policy
is fitted for UN members majority, UN members
majority on questions concerning Israel comes
from a multitude of always one-sided Arab and
Muslim countries (prospering democracies, for the
most part :wink: ) and countries (like those of the EU)
that care about their own economical and political relations
with the Arab and Muslim countries a lot more than some
tiny injustices they do - it's called politics. Of course,
then they need to justify their policy to the average
citizen in simple terms of right and wrong. :wink:

Live long and prosper.
 
  • #50
Adam said:
Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

PART TWO
"Suppression of provocative language and incitments to hatred and violence in Israeli and Palestinian school textbooks and the media" - The Example of Israeli Textbooks
The Example of Israeli Textbooks
CMIP focuses its research on official policy, i.e. on textbooks and curricula in use in schools that are under the responsibility and/or supervision of the official authorities. In the case of the Israeli textbooks, in that it has also reviewed about 50 schoolbooks of the ultra-orthodox (H'aredi) sector. The reason for this exception being that although being outside government supervision, this sector which encompasses less than 10 % of the Israeli education system, receives public funding.

The Israeli textbooks were examined according to criteria set out by UNESCO and CMIP. CMIP has found that the Israeli textbooks respond positively to all these criteria, despite the deterioration that has occurred in the political situation since the end of 2000.

- The "other", the Palestinians, are recognized and accepted, and they are not stereotyped and prejudiced. With the exception of a few examples in ultra orthodox textbooks, CMIP did not find stereotypes, prejudices or patronizing terminology towards the Arabs and the Palestinians, in Israeli textbooks.

- A particular effort to avoid prejudices and to guard against generalizations. On prejudice, the following is to be found in a textbook for Grade seven:
"Many people think: The dove is a bird that pursues peace. This belief is incorrect; it is a prejudice: people believe it without checking it. There are a lot of prejudices. For example:


1.The Jews control the world and exploit all those who live in it.
2.The blacks are inferior; they are incapable of being scientists.
3.The Arabs only understand the language of force...
Be ready to explain orally why these are prejudices." (I Understand, 1993, p.259)

- Regarding generalizations, an elementary textbook on reading comprehension concludes a story on how a Jewish girl was saved by an Arab woman by stressing:"The Arabs are like the Jews. … There are nasty people among them and there are decent people and … they should not be labeled" (What is the Interpretation? Comprehension B, pp. 184-188).

- Generalizations and patronizing terminology are to be found in H'aredi textbooks, such as: "We [the Ishmaelites] cannot accept the Torah, it is difficult for us not to steal" [Everything in its Time, first grade reader, 1995, pp.233-234). "There is no logical explanation for the strange vision of the flight of the Arab fellaheen … It seems that they did not strike any roots in this land, did not connect to it in any way. They dwelled in it, for hundreds of years, but did not settle in it They were like foreigners to it, like wayfarers who rest along the way" (Our Childhood, 1989, p. 350)

- Recognition and acceptance of the Palestinians as a people, are to be found: "The Jews and the Arabs were two national communities struggling over the same piece of land and the British could not establish peace between them… During the 1930's, Arab nationalist movement evolved all over the Middle East. Many of the Arabs of Eretz Yisrael also began formulating a national consciousness - in other words, the perception that they are not just part of the larger Arab nation, but are also Palestinians.." [The twentieth Century- On the threshold of tomorrow, Grade 9, 1999, p.44). Or a text referring to the content of the Oslo agreements reads "the PLO was recognized [ by Israel] as the legitimate leadership of the Palestinians". (Europe without borders, pp. 63-64).

- Achievements of the other are recognized. "However, the Arabs were not simply cultural middlemen, they were also creators of culture. For example, they were the first to discover the existence of infectious diseases. They were also the first to build public hospitals. Because of their considerable contribution to various scientific fields, there are disciplines that to this day are called by their Arabic names, such as algebra. The Islamic religion also influenced the development of culture. The obligation to pray in the direction of Mecca led to the development of astronomy, which helped identify the direction according to the heavenly bodies. The duty to make a pilgrimage developed geography and gave a push to the writing of travel books. These books, and the Arabs' high capability in map drawing, helped develop trade. To this day, merchants use Arabic words, such as bazaar, check and tariff. Since the language of the Koran is Arabic, the Muslims spent much time researching the Arabic language and grammar." (From Generation to Generation, Vol.b, 1994, p. 220)

Another quote from an eighth grade History textbook refers more specifically to the Arabs of Palestine: "In general we are mistaken in regard to a great people… This is the mightiest, most excellent people in physical attainments and in the skill of its understanding. We must not belittle its rights [of the Arab people in Palestine]. The Hebrew people respect not only the personal rights of each person, but rather the national right of each nation and tribe" (From Conservatism to Progress, 1996, p. 374).

- Political disputes are presented objectively and honestly. Controversial issues are addressed: the historian Benny Morris, namely that "the main catalyst for the flight was the attacks by the Hagana, Etzel, Lehi and Israel Defense Forces and not the calls or instructions of the leaders of Arab countries or of the Supreme Arab Council and the Mufti." (From Exile to Independence - The History of the Jewish People in Recent Generations, vol. 2, 1990, p. 312).

- The point of view of the other side is presented: "About half a year after Anwar Sadat entered into office he proposed to the Government of Israel to commence political negotiations (February 1971). Israel treated Sadat's proposal with scorn out of the feeling of power and superiority that had taken hold of Israeli society following the Six Day War. After his proposal had been rejected and the political stalemate continued, Sadat decided to go to war. He proclaimed that he was prepared to sacrifice a million soldiers in order to liberate the territories that Israel had captured. He even threatened Israel that, if it did not withdraw from the Sinai Peninsula, it would pay a high price. Israel saw his words as empty boasting. But Sadat continued with his preparations and he and the President of Syria, Assad, decided to launch an attack against Israel during the course of 1973" (K. Tabibian, Journey to the Past - The Twentieth Century, By Dint of Freedom, 1999, p. 313).

- Simulation games are used to help the pupil internalize other views:
"4. Divide into groups representing Jewish journalists and Palestinian journalists who have been sent to cover the discussion in the United Nations Organization leading to the Partition Resolution.
A. Prepare a report that will include details about the discussion in the United Nations Organization, the position of some of the states participating in it and the results of the discussion, the vote and reactions to the resolution...
C. Discuss with the whole class the differences between the reports of Jewish journalists and those of the Palestinian journalists". (K. Tabibian, Journey To The Past - The Twentieth Century, By Dint of Freedom, 1999, p. 294).

"You are to take part in a simulation game, the purpose of which is for you to reach the maximum regional cooperation that will ensure by peaceful means a fair division of water, to understand the special needs of each country in the region ..."… The parties participating in the discussion must reach a rational arrangement that is in accord with the treaties on water rights. The condition for the approval of the arrangement for the division of water is its acceptability to the representatives of all the countries participating. The arrangement is to be approved by the representative of the United Nations... The game continues until arrangements have been reached between all the countries" (Water in the Era of Peace - Learning Unit about the Water Problem in our Region and Ways to Solve it, 2000, pp. 151-152).

- Examples of tolerance and respect include explicit mention of the Arabs and Muslims' attachment to the Holy Land, to Jerusalem and to their holy sites there: "The Land of Israel in general, and Jerusalem in particular, have been sanctified more and more in Islamic thought - as Islam has developed and spread, both religiously and geographically. As Islam absorbed more and more of the world conquered by it, so it adapted and Islamized the values that it absorbed, including the holiness of the Land of Israel, its flora and its water, living in it, the sanctity of being buried in it and the like. All these became from that time onwards part of orthodox Islam... The expression of the holiness of the Land of Israel and Jerusalem in Islam can be found in the erection of the pair of mosques on the Temple Mount". (H. Peleg, G.Zohar… This is the Land - Introduction to Land of Israel Studies for the Upper Grades, 2000, pp. 161-162.)


-

Peace is not advocated as utopia, but depicted as a concrete achievement resulting from men's actions, through talks, negotiations and compromises, taking into account the legitimate interests of the other side. The principles and commitments of the Oslo agreements are provided, including their territorial significance. (This is the Land - Introduction to Land of Israel Studies for Upper Grades, 2000, pp. 20-21).
 
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