Fukushima Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants Fukushima part 2

Click For Summary
A magnitude-5.3 earthquake struck Fukushima, Japan, prompting concerns due to its proximity to the damaged nuclear power plant from the 2011 disaster. The U.S. Geological Survey reported the quake occurred at a depth of about 13 miles, but no tsunami warning was issued. Discussions in the forum highlighted ongoing issues with tank leaks at the plant, with TEPCO discovering loosened bolts and corrosion, complicating monitoring efforts. There are plans for fuel removal from Unit 4, but similar structures will be needed for Units 1 and 3 to ensure safe decontamination. The forum also addressed the need for improved groundwater management and the establishment of a specialist team to tackle contamination risks.
  • #1,381
Sounds logical .

Metal melts before the ceramic fuel so it's an unknown mix down there.

.
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
  • #1,382
jim hardy said:
Metal melts before the ceramic fuel so it's an unknown mix down there.

And probably not even a homogenic mix. At its present stay, there will hardly be much left in unoxidized metal form except for traces and the odd piece of scrap iron. Oxides of uranium, zirconium and iron should be abundant in the lava, of course. None of the debris formations seen by the diving robot inside the piedestal of unit 3 appear to me to have solidified out of water.
 
  • #1,383
Someone listed the temperatures above so knowing the flow rate could tell us the amount of activity going on in there.

I'm guessing they have stabilized the amount injected so that they are only injecting at enough rate to maintain the level up to where it is being maintained since it doesn't seem the heating is in danger of running away.

You would think that there was enough melting to "dilute" the fuel quite a bit.

All speculation on my part.
 
  • #1,384
HowlerMonkey said:
Someone listed the temperatures above so knowing the flow rate could tell us the amount of activity going on in there.

I'm guessing they have stabilized the amount injected so that they are only injecting at enough rate to maintain the level up to where it is being maintained since it doesn't seem the heating is in danger of running away.
Flow rates are published at least daily: http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2017/images2/handouts_170809_07-j.pdf Water is injected via core spray and the regular cooling pathway (forgot its name). But I'm not sure if it's really possible to calculate much with the data available.
 
  • #1,385
jim hardy said:
The way typical accident analyses read , i'd think
it's more likely there in case of weld failure at pressure during operation
it limits travel so the rod only drops a little bit , not fully ejecting from the core . That keeps the reactivity insertion smaller..

Perhaps a BWR guy can clear up our speculations ?

This is exactly right. Almost sounds like the wording right out of the USAR.

The metal structure underneath is the CRD support housing. It's designed to minimize the maximum reactivity insertion in a rod ejection event where the CRD mech weld suddenly catastrophically fails and ejects the rod.
 
  • Like
Likes MadderDoc and jim hardy
  • #1,386
  • #1,387
MadderDoc said:
None of the debris formations seen by the diving robot inside the piedestal of unit 3 appear to me to have solidified out of water.

One can "What If" it to death. I did in 2011. That discussion would be more apropos in the science fiction forum, though.

old jim
 
  • #1,389
jim hardy said:
One can "What If" it to death. I did in 2011. That discussion would be more apropos in the science fiction forum, though.

You are being dreadfully indistinct. Many what-if questions have been laid to rest since 2011. I fail to see how comments on results of a recent investigation of the situation in the space under the RPV of unit 3 would fit in a science fiction forum.
 
  • #1,390
HowlerMonkey said:
I'm guessing they have stabilized the amount injected so that they are only injecting at enough rate to maintain the level up to where it is being maintained since it doesn't seem the heating is in danger of running away.

They have actually cut down on the rate of injection, under the impression that it wouldn't lead to any significant temperature increase, such as to take some load off the waste water treatment facilities. Along with the muon measurements, Tepco made some interferences as to the possible whereabouts of the fuel from the RPV/PCV temperatures observed in connection with the reduction of the injection rates. In unit 3, they found that temperatures remained stable, and higher in the PCV than in the RPV. They took that as an indication where the fuel most likely would be.

As would be expected, in the case of unit 3, the reduced injection appears to have lowered the water surface inside the PCV. During the previous inspection the platform inside the PCV at the X-6 penetration was found fully submersed, while it was clear out of water during the recent expedition.
 
  • #1,391
MadderDoc said:
You are being dreadfully indistinct. Many what-if questions have been laid to rest since 2011. I fail to see how comments on results of a recent investigation of the situation in the space under the RPV of unit 3 would fit in a science fiction forum.
The remark was not meant as a criticism of your observation, though i see how it might have come across that way.
It was a 'whoa' to my own overactive imagination which thinks up (especially late at night).scenarios that do belong in a Sci Fi thread..

Just that to me the 'layer cake' resembles coral growths. I've no idea how they formed. I could as easily accept they're sedimentary.

If a melt through dripped molten metal into water i'd expect the steam to scatter it
If it dripped into a dry region i'd expect stalactites

I don't know what to make of the pictures.

I do apologize for the wording of my post , certainly no belittlement or criticism was intended. I was reining in my own fantasies albeit awkwardly.

old jim
 
  • #1,392
No worries, Jim. We're coming at this with different backgrounds, as I said I am not an R guy, but rather a C guy (for chemistry), and more distant a G guy (for geology, which was my first academic love). So of course I am looking at things from that perspective. Molten metal in water can produce very exciting phenomena, however the bulk of what you'd expect to come out from a RPV such as the Daiichi ones. would not be molten metal in its reduced form. Rather one should think of it as a lava-like substance, containing predominantly different oxides of uranium, zirconium, and iron. Lava formations look differently, depending on whether they solidified in air, solidified on dropping into water, or solidified from a submersed formation site.
 
  • #1,393
@jim hardy and others, I am glad to see a more realistic interpretation of the situation has started to solidify. I recall as recently as March 2017 seeing posts suggesting a large amount of the unaccounted for reactor fuel was likely still unmelted and 'intact' inside one or all of the RVs. And posts like this gained much credit and support here.

(https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...ear-plants-part-2.711577/page-61#post-5729504)

The fact remained that all relevant data and 1st hand statements directly from Tepco contradicted this scenario and pointed to clear signs of gross fuel damage, melt down and fuel escape yet this was largely looked over or ignored. Tepco have since continued to publish data and share information and I think now a more credible assessment of the condition inside the plant and extent of the accident can be formed. The more information we see released, the more we can account for what we see.

I theorized back in March that the images and data suggested that the deposits found inside Unit 1 were a result of concrete damage from gross fuel exit. A process known as spalling where a high heat source such as contact between ejected molten fuel and the PVC basemat would undergo a vigorous reaction, shattering and depositing sediment across the PVC floor (https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...ear-plants-part-2.711577/page-60#post-5726587).Supporting these images, were samples taken at the time which last month were found to be too inactive to be fuel based material. The latest videos from Tepco have now captured concrete underneath the reactors in this exact spalled state:

170721_01j50-1024x576.jpg

http://photo.tepco.co.jp/date/2017/201707-j/170721-01j.html

Notice the flaking and layering on the right hand surface. Typical of the high heat exposure you would expect from fuel contact. Now this is inside of Unit 3 but that goes towards my main point, a largely similar condition across the three units with signs of meltdown and RV penetration/ meltout/ ejection across all three units. In terms of Unit 1, the amount of damage to the basemat is very likely substantial if the amount of what looks like spalled concrete is an accurate indicator.

One of the clearest indicators of differences between how the accident proceed once the fuels left the RVs is the massive difference in their water levels. Unit 1 is completely flooded where as 1 and 2 are only holding small amounts. Whether that means 1 and 2 are 'good' and 3 is 'bad' or vice versa is difficult to say from this. Personally I hope something can be done to lower the viewing aspect of the Muon apparatus to try and locate more of the missing fuel to track it's progression after melting out of the RVs. That seems to be the next large unknown and could suggest which units are having the largest impact on the sites high groundwater contamination.
 
  • #1,394
I don't buy gross vessel bottom failure.
From Sotan's link in post 1207
underfukushima-jpg.jpg


Don't know what or where or how big this is
upload_2017-8-17_19-53-40.png

but were it fuel i don't believe they'd have got the robot in there.
 
  • #1,395
Charles Smalls said:
I theorized back in March that the images and data suggested that the deposits found inside Unit 1 were a result of concrete damage from gross fuel exit.
Can any of you BWR guys tell whether these rod drives are up where they belong or down on the catch rack ?

upload_2017-8-17_19-57-36.png


upload_2017-8-17_19-59-27.png


upload_2017-8-17_20-0-11.png


pictures are from Sotan's link , http://photo.tepco.co.jp/date/2017/201703-j/170330-01j.html

"Sediment" to me suggests a clay - asbestos mix washed out from the insulation. Of course i don't know what that plant was insulated with. We got rid of our asbestos insulation somewhere around the fifteen year mark as best i recall..

I repeat - don't stretch the evidence.
 
  • #1,396
jim hardy said:
I don't buy gross vessel bottom failure.
By my understanding bottom failures are different between BWR and PWR. As far as I know for PWRs it is possible that the whole bottom breaks down, but for BWRs it is actually unlikely, since the molten material will (most likely) find its way through (or: around) the control rod mechanisms sooner than it would eat up the bottom head wall.

So in case of complete meltdown what we should look for is not a missing bottom, but big holes around some control drives.
Also, it won't look like the whole grading there would be hollowed out, but like big molten/deformed/missing sections across the floor there.

jim hardy said:
"Sediment" to me suggests a clay - asbestos mix
The sediment in U1 definitely looks like milled concrete. No clay or any fiber-like material there.

jim hardy said:
I repeat - don't stretch the evidence.
But also don't ignore it. U2 and U3 is still has some missing points, but for U1, the 'gross bottom failure' already has quite high probability.
 
  • Like
Likes Sotan, Charles Smalls and jim hardy
  • #1,397
Rive said:
By my understanding bottom failures are different between BWR and PWR. As far as I know for PWRs it is possible that the whole bottom breaks down, but for BWRs it is actually unlikely, since the molten material will (most likely) find its way through (or: around) the control rod mechanisms sooner than it would eat up the bottom head wall.

Exactly this. Not a gross collapse or pressurised rupture of the bottom head, but a situation where insufficient cooling gives the superheated fuel an opportunity to eat through weak points in the RV bottom head and bore it's way out of the reactor. Unit 2 has clear signs of undergoing this exact process. It has a mostly recognizable and intact CRD structures in the ceiling and a completely melted grated floor in the CRD room beneath:

u2_pedestal_scorpion_170209_02web.jpg


jim hardy said:
[We] don't know what or where or how big this is.

We know exactly where and how large this melt damage is. These images were taken in the CRD room directly underneath the Unit 2 reactor vessel. TEPCO published these schematics of the damage sizes back in February:
4kXQ0zI.jpg

(http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2017/images/handouts_170215_01-e.pdf)The red arrow indicates the position of the robot taking the images. The large pizza slice shaped missing grating in the middle of the photograph is the blue/red triangle section of grating in the schematic. The well known melted grating hole at the top of the photograph is the red square of the schematic. That section was originally said to be 1x1 meter. The other large amounts of missing grating that can be seen in this photograph and the above Jim Hardy post, are the grey area of the schematic which we now know is also missing. All in all there is large scale damage to the large amount of the CRD room floor. Whether this is entirely from contact with melted fuel or also caused partly by explosions/falling debris is unknown. Either way it is clear that a large amount of fuel in a melted state passed through this area directly below the reactor. This is the reason why the robot that entered through the X6 tunnel was never able to travel further into the pedestal and complete the rest of its planned inspection. The surfaces it was supposed to travel on had been melted or blown away. In Unit 3, the big difference was that Tepco used a swimming robot in and a flooded containment building, so the probe could essentially swim it's way up to the CRD rods regardless of whether the flooring had been melted away in the process of the accident.

All in all, the lion share of the fuel in the three units seems to be down and out. Down through the rv bottom heads and outwardly spreading across and into the PVC floors. The robot images, muon scans, tepco statements and contamination readings all point towards this being the case.
 
  • #1,399
Smalls hasn't learned from his previous incorrect assumptions.

You need information that does not yet exist to make the assumptions you are making.
 
  • #1,400
HowlerMonkey said:
Smalls hasn't learned from his previous incorrect assumptions.

What are you referring to? I stand by everything I have voiced so far. The one caveat is the location of the X-6 entrance AKA "top or middle of the PVC"-gate. The point I was trying to convey was that relative to the original starting location of the fuel (inside the rv) to the likely end location of the fuel (the PVC floor), the elevated 500Gy/hr reading near the X6 entrance was given the elevated location and the revised number fit much better with my expected progression of the accident. As I said in my #1333 post, many circumstances or chain of events could have caused a 530 Sv/hr reading around that area but it fits much better to have that number revised down which it was. Remember 'down and out' is what I have been putting forward. That is the likely path the fuel in the 3 reactors took and where I expect the largest of the contamination readings in the PVC floor/basemat area. Relative to the starting location, not from the top of the PVC itself. If nitpicking basic grammar is the sole argument against my hypothesis I have no problem with that.

HowlerMonkey said:
You need information that does not yet exist to make the assumptions you are making.

I disagree. I see no problem with making assumptions or speculating so long as it's done in a measured and responsible way. That means citing relevant, credible sources, giving a logical scientific or historical basis and an agenda free presentation i.e. not endulging in fear mongering or rumours. As far possible I've done that. You hope when the data does arrive, it confirms or supports those assumptions you put forward. I made (at times) some unpopular assumptions on Unit 2 fuel meltout, a negative Unit 3 muon scan, and spall deposits in Unit 1 and so far data has come back to support each of those. That means I can be confident that my understanding of the situation at Fukushima and the progress of situation from 2011 to today is on the right track. That my understanding is relatively sound and I am well enough informed to asses the events. Remember this is the true meaning of scientific method. To begin with the hypothesis you want to prove and interpret the data from there.

Again if there is any actual scientific or mechanics based fault in any posts I have made, feel free to raise them. Typos not included.
 
Last edited:
  • #1,401
HowlerMonkey said:
You need information that does not yet exist to make the assumptions you are making.
However, the already existing information allows to make such assumptions on far more solid base than we used to make here way back.

At this point it is already the 'no gross damage on bottom head' line is, which is more in need of fitting informations and backing. The 'gross damage on bottom head' gained the support of Mr Occam.
 
  • #1,402
Now i see,
this
upload_2017-8-19_8-58-2.png


is the area depicted in Charles Small's post , image oriented about 90 degrees CCW from the drawing

What a mess.

I wonder how i missed those last February ?
 
  • #1,403
Rive said:
since the molten material will (most likely) find its way through (or: around) the control rod mechanisms sooner than it would eat up the bottom head wall.

So in case of complete meltdown what we should look for is not a missing bottom, but big holes around some control drives.
Also, it won't look like the whole grading there would be hollowed out, but like big molten/deformed/missing sections across the floor there.

Quite plausible.
One man's "big hole" is another man's "localized breach ".
 
Last edited:
  • #1,404
MadderDoc said:
Molten metal in water can produce very exciting phenomena, however the bulk of what you'd expect to come out from a RPV such as the Daiichi ones. would not be molten metal in its reduced form. Rather one should think of it as a lava-like substance, containing predominantly different oxides of uranium, zirconium, and iron.

Hydrides too ?
 
  • #1,405
(I'd just like to say that I for one love the discussions here and have nothing against trying to read as much as possible into the information made public by Tepco and others involved. That opinions differ sometimes, is only normal. But thank you all who contribute!)

Here's a video of April 2017 from NHK.


"The road to decommissioning 2017. The nuclear fuel debris. The "wall" that must be faced" would be a tentative translation of the title. It was aired after the investiga
tions in Unit 1 and 2 that showed the "sediments" and the missing grating, among others. NHK talked to experts and even enhanced some of the images and videos taken by Tepco.

It is 49 minutes long and, unfortunately, only in Japanese, but I found the animations shown throughout the video extremely interesting and suggestive. They might come in handy in the controversy regarding how the bottoms of the RPVs were pierced or damaged during the accident. Of course they are just models, and here and there NHK stresses that the true situation is not yet known - but I suppose they do convey the opinions of the various experts that were consulted, and perhaps even the opinion of Tepco, regarding the meltdown process as it proceeded in the 3 damaged units. See 0:56, 2:07, 5:55, 7:30 (the investigation in Unit 1 PCV), 9:55 (Unit 2 meltdown and investigation and the very high radioactivity readings), 12:28, 20:40 (the possible source of those high readings somewhere up in the PCV of unit 2)... and so on, I think it's worth clicking on the video progression bar every couple of minutes or so.

(I could translate what's being said if anyone is interested in certain points of the video but sadly I don't have the time for a full translation at the moment.)
 
  • Like
Likes Azby, krater, Charles Smalls and 1 other person
  • #1,406
jim hardy said:
Hydrides too ?

No metal hydrides. They wouldn't be stable in that kind of environment.
 
  • #1,407
Charles Smalls said:
The latest videos from Tepco have now captured concrete underneath the reactors in this exact spalled state:

170721_01j50-1024x576-jpg.jpg

http://photo.tepco.co.jp/date/2017/201707-j/170721-01j.html

Notice the flaking and layering on the right hand surface. Typical of the high heat exposure you would expect from fuel contact. Now this is inside of Unit 3 but that goes towards my main point, a largely similar condition across the three units with signs of meltdown and RV penetration/ meltout/ ejection across all three units. In terms of Unit 1, the amount of damage to the basemat is very likely substantial if the amount of what looks like spalled concrete is an accurate indicator.

The frame is from the second video inspection inside the unit 3 pedestal. The whiteish eroded supposedly concrete surface seen to the right would be the inside pedestal wall. It is not clear at which height above the floor, however the inspection on that day was supposed to be about locating the grating platform under the CRDMs. Consistent with that, the metal structure about center of the frame could be the remaining wall mounts for the platform. If that is the case, the camera is looking at the pedestal wall somewhere well above the PCV floor. This does not seem to me a likely spot to see fuel/concrete interaction.

Now, seeing the grating 'wasn't there', possibly the camera took some detour, or a dive deeper to make these images, in which case there is, I believe, a circular metal structure along the pedestal wall rather close to the PCV floor. Still we are looking at a vertical concrete surface. Certainly, I have thought about where or if I might see signs of fuel/concrete interaction in the videos from unit 3, however I left it as indeterminate, under the impression, that much material appears to have landed in the bottom section af the pedestal, and on top of that some sedimentation has occured. IOW, I am not sure I would be able to see spalled concrete down there, if there were any, seeing it might have been covered by other material.
 
Last edited:
  • #1,408
MadderDoc said:
This does not seem to me a likely spot to see fuel/concrete interaction.
Spalling does not necessarily requires direct concrete-fuel interaction. It requires only heat.

At the time of RPV break the whole bottom of RPv were red (yellow?) hot I guess.
After the break there was a shower of yellow (white?) hot material under the RPV.

However, i cannot say that what we see there is spalling for sure: it more looks like broken down plaster.
 
Last edited:
  • #1,409
Rive said:
Spalling does not necessarily requires direct concrete-fuel interaction. It requires only heat.

At the time of RPV break the whole bottom of RPv were red (yellow?) hot I guess.
After the break there was a shower of yellow (white?) hot material under the RPV.

However, i cannot say that what we see there is spalling for sure: it more looks like broken down plaster.

It's pretty much guaranteed. Concrete spalling occures anytime you have molten fuel ejection from an RPV into a dry PVC which we know happened in all three Units. You can read a lot about the process and what potential implications Tepco are facing in many of the published journal papers and conducted experiments on loss of coolant (LOCA) and station black out (SBO) accidents. They have been modelling and testing how they progress since the 1980s. MCCI Concrete-Fuel Interaction and Corium Coolability, BWR containment failure analysis during degraded-core accidents and Simulation of a BWR Lower Head RV in an Accident are all good reads. This paper is especially good because it's a straight forward essay and compares a lot of previous experiments with a whole section on spalling in nuclear accidents.

The image from the video is good because it's above the water line so you can clearly make out the textbook morphology of heat induced damage where the material breaks up in a characteristic layered sheet-like manner. But it's just an example. The real spall site of interest is directly outside the Unit 1 pedestal doorway to the PVC. This is the presumed pathway any molten fuel would have flowed along as it left the RV and the latest data shows that the deposited material found there is too inactive to be the fuel itself. That indicates that the fuel did pass through or under that area.As for this new Tepco video... to get an idea of how the Tepco investigation team is puting together it's own data is fascinating. So many interesting images:

KdmBFW3.jpg

(00:59) straight away we see a model suggesting they presume all three PVC's were essentially dry at the time of fuel melt through. It looked that way for 1 and 2 but I thought as 3 is so flooded, it may have been so at the time of the accident but the flooding of the building seems to be something that happened later on. As far as concrete-fuel interactions, if there was no quenching at the time of core exit, it leaves the basemat more open to core damage.
padHMYT.jpg

(02:14) This is one of the most interesting images. As said before, RVs that have CRDs and other equipment that load from the bottom are inherently weaker by design. If you want to keep a liquid substance in a container, having holes in the bottom instantly makes that more difficult. This particular plumbing out let seems to be what Tepco suspect was the primary fuel escape route and shows how you can have gross fuel exit but still see a relatively intact CRD structure as we see. The disturbing thing from this and the other image above, is that they think the RV could have been breached even before the rest of the fuel had melted.
WweUqVQ.jpg

(02:17) This suspected outlet also goes on to explain very well the particular 'spray and splatter' pattern of the hot fuel exit and why we see the CRD room floor grating was melted away in the manner it was.
19v7cco.jpg

(13:42) There is the 1x1 meter central melt hole mentioned here the other day which confirms the overall scale of the damage.
iBEnLgv.jpg

(01:12) This graphic shows the molten fuel flowing straight out of the pedestal into the PVC with the splatter along the way. This is where the spalling would primarily occur.
vB66jCp.jpg

(08:05) This seems to refer to the Unit 1 survey but should be pretty much the same across the three units with the molten fuel exiting the pedestal door into the PVC proper. That black mass is supposed to be the fuel but according to the handout report, the sample readings came back to low to be fuel which is why I am more confident of my original 'spalled concrete with fuel around or under this area' assumption.
GJK1gMl.jpg

(33:25) This is the other interesting section. Now that muon, robot investigations and site data all indicate gross fuel exit across the three units, the next question becomes where the fuel went from there and can that be used to explain the other situations on the site such as the persistent groundwater contamination on site. I had assumed that the burrowing action of the fuel into the basemat combined with explosion/earthquake damage had allowed the fuel to interact with the ingress of site groundwater to cause the contamination problem there. Basically with the fuel going under the PVC/pedestal floor. Tepco appear to be working with a different assumption.
OYrH30M.jpg

(34:03) According to this graphic, they suspect hot molten fuel somehow made it's way into the suppression pool and burned through the bottom of the torus to contaminate and leak water from there.
BWHyQSx.jpg

(34:09) They seem to be experimenting with different concrete consistencies and mixtures so they can get a mix to pipe into the suppression and plug the suspected leaks. I do not know enough about the plant design to say if this is actually the natural progression for fuel escape or what amounts of fuel would have traveled into that area. I find it strange the molten fuel could travel through that plumbing but they think they can use the same pipework to get a decent concrete delivery.
xiTFXE0.jpg

(46:20) Apparently they think the torus leak is the main site causing the groundwater contamination and is still a major issue for the recovery effort.

Many many thanks Sotan, this was a gem of a find.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Azby and Sotan
  • #1,410
Thanks Charles, I too found it interesting for the suggestive animations and graphic depictions. Let me point out, though, that I am not sure how much in that is Tepco. NHK made that video and they do say they consulted many experts and Tepco's results... but I am not sure all those are in fact the hypotheses Tepco is working with. (It may well be so, but...)
NHK has aired quite a few of those special programs. They had another great one about the contaminated water, one about the first hours of the accident... But I found them too late and there is the language barrier too. This one was pretty recent though.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 14K ·
473
Replies
14K
Views
4M
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
49K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
6K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
16K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
4K
  • · Replies 763 ·
26
Replies
763
Views
274K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K