B Light beams and their reflection

AI Thread Summary
In a discussion about light beams and their reflections, participants explore the visibility of laser beams in smoke and their reflections in mirrors. They note that while the laser beam can be made visible with smoke, the reflection in the mirror appears disconnected from the beam itself. The conversation touches on the nature of ordinary mirrors and virtual images, with some confusion about how light travels and scatters. Ultimately, the consensus is that scattering is key to visibility, but the effect is often too subtle to be perceived without sufficient illumination. The discussion raises questions about visibility in different environments, such as outer space, where scattering is minimal.
  • #51
elou said:
I don't know.
If you can't think of an alternative to scattering to explain how we see illuminated objects, then why do you question that it is scattering?
 
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  • #52
A.T. said:
If you can't think of an alternative to scattering to explain how we see illuminated objects, then why do you question that it is scattering?
I am, rightly or wrongly, not convinced. I was hoping to find a clear answer one way or another.
 
  • #53
elou said:
If we are looking not at something being illuminated, but at its reflection on a mirror, what is exactly happening that makes the mirror reflect the object, and us see the reflection.
A mirror does "specular reflection". Most ordinary objects (trees, grass, sand, concrete, wood, birds, hands, etc) do "diffuse reflection". As @Ibix tried to say without using the big words.

In specular reflection, an incident ray is all reflected in a single direction. You know: angle of reflection equals angle of incidence. This is characteristic of smooth surfaces. In terms of wave optics (think Huygen's principle), the ray path is one that extremizes path length, at least locally. Importantly, this means that the first derivitive of path length with respect to impact location is zero. Small deviations from the center of line result in wave forms that interfere constructively.

By contrast, microscopially rough surfaces tend to reflect diffusely. Small deviations from the center line result in significant variations in path length. There is no constructive interference.

With specular reflection, nearly equal angles of incidence yield nearly equal angles of reflection. A beam of light is all reflected the same way. The angle of reflection yields information on the location of the source.

With diffuse reflection, the angle of reflection tells us nothing about the angle of incidence. The location of the illumination source is not determinable by observing the diffusely reflected light.

We "see" a point on an illuminated object because the portion of the light that is emitted in a very narrow fan-shaped arc stays aligned with the rest of that fan-shaped spray all the way to our eye. The lens of the eye is then able to focus all of that incident light at a single point on the retina that corresponds to the angle of incidence on the eye. This yields what might be seen as a two-dimensional hemispherical bit map of the light incident on the eye. The rods and cones in the eye corresponding to bits in the bit map.

Post-processing in the eye and the visual cortex mean that the bit map metaphor is not technically apt. The sensing bioware is surprisingly complex. But it is good enough for purposes of the ray optics we are discussing.
 
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  • #54
jbriggs444 said:
A mirror does "specular reflection". Most ordinary objects (trees, grass, sand, concrete, wood, birds, hands, etc) do "diffuse reflection". As @Ibix tried to say without using the big words.

In specular reflection, an incident ray is all reflected in a single direction. You know: angle of reflection equals angle of incidence. This is characteristic of smooth surfaces. In terms of wave optics (think Huygen's principle), the ray path is one that extremizes path length, at least locally. Importantly, this means that the first derivitive of path length with respect to impact location is zero. Small deviations from the center of line result in wave forms that interfere constructively.

By contrast, microscopially rough surfaces tend to reflect diffusely. Small deviations from the center line result in significant variations in path length. There is no constructive interference.

With specular reflection, nearly equal angles of incidence yield nearly equal angles of reflection. A beam of light is all reflected the same way. The angle of reflection yields information on the location of the source.

With diffuse reflection, the angle of reflection tells us nothing about the angle of incidence. The location of the illumination source is not determinable by observing the diffusely reflected light.

We "see" a point on an illuminated object because the portion of the light that is emitted in a very narrow fan-shaped arc stays aligned with the rest of that fan-shaped spray all the way to our eye. The lens of the eye is then able to focus all of that incident light at a single point on the retina that corresponds to the angle of incidence on the eye. This yields what might be seen as a two-dimensional hemispherical bit map of the light incident on the eye.

Post-processing in the eye and the visual cortex mean that the bit map metaphor is not technically apt. But it is good enough for purposes of the ray optics we are discussing.
A very nice summary of reflection phenomena.
 
  • #55
elou said:
not convinced.

I have a feeling you will never be convinced.
 
  • #56
elou said:
I am, rightly or wrongly, not convinced. I was hoping to find a clear answer one way or another.
I have a feeling that you are demanding 'spoon feeding' about this. If you put a postage stamp to cover the beam, all the light will be reflected / blocked and you will see a red disc and there will be a shadow behind it. If you put a grain of rice in the beam, it will block / reflect some / most of the beam. If you put a speck of dust, you will see it because it reflects a small proportion of the beam. For very small items, the light may be scattered in all directions due to diffraction.

Google "Scattering of Light" and read around the topic. Put in a bit of your own effort and figure out why you are not getting this. I think you just like all the attention you are getting from PF.
 
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  • #57
elou said:
what is exactly happening that makes the mirror reflect the object, and us see the reflection
Our eyes see light that enters the eye.

If you are in a dark room you cannot see anything because there is no light to enter your eye from anything.

If you turn on a light bulb in the room then light from the bulb hits your hand and scatters in all directions. One of those directions is from your hand to your eye. That light enters your eye and you see your hand.

If there is a mirror in the room then there are two directions from your hand to your eye. The direct one described above, and one that reflects off the mirror. So light can reach your eye by scattering off your hand in two directions. You can see the back of your hand directly (for example) while light from the palm of your hand scatters off the palm in all directions including the one that hits the mirror and reflects to your eye.
 
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  • #58
Dale said:
Our eyes see light that enters the eye.

If you are in a dark room you cannot see anything because there is no light to enter your eye from anything.

If you turn on a light bulb in the room then light from the bulb hits your hand and scatters in all directions. One of those directions is from your hand to your eye. That light enters your eye and you see your hand.

If there is a mirror in the room then there are two directions from your hand to your eye. The direct one described above, and one that reflects off the mirror. So light can reach your eye by scattering off your hand in two directions. You can see the back of your hand directly (for example) while light from the palm of your hand scatters off the palm in all directions including the one that hits the mirror and reflects to your eye.
You can lead a horse to water. . . . .
 
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  • #59
elou said:
I was hoping to find a clear answer one way or another.
Then clearly explain what is still unclear.
 
  • #60
sophiecentaur said:
You can lead a horse to water. . . . .
... but you can't make him think.
 
  • #61
As far as I am concerned, this thread can be closed.
 
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  • #62
That was the “horticulture” saying, iirc.
 
  • #63
The problem seems to be not that @elou doesn't understand our explanations, it is that he doesn't believe them. Obviously, people can believe whatever they wish. That doesn't mean they can call it science.

I think at this point, the best advice is that he spend the $5 on a cheap laser pointer and see whatever what he has been told matches observation or not.
 
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  • #64
Here's another thing to explain. The image in a mirror is reversed, left to right, right? Why is it not also reversed top to bottom? Is it an effect of gravity? Will it be different in outer space? I think if @elou can work this out he will be on his way to answering the laser question.
 
  • #65
elou said:
As far as I am concerned, this thread can be closed.
I am glad we could help.
 
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