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Paul Colby said:The basic interaction of GW with linear elastic materials is given by the equations I've quoted and are well known in the literature on bar detectors.
Is there a good summary reference?
Paul Colby said:The basic interaction of GW with linear elastic materials is given by the equations I've quoted and are well known in the literature on bar detectors.
How large do you expect this effect to be? It has to be limited, and I don’t see why this limit should be given by the speed of light instead of the speed of sound. If there wouldn’t be a limit you could put a floating LIGO mirror next to the end of the bar and instantaneously measure the length of the bar by comparing how mirror and end of the bar move with respect to each other. That would violate causality.PeterDonis said:However, atoms in the bar are much closer than 1mm apart, so we cannot assume that atoms are unaffected by neighboring atoms during the passage of the pulse. If we assume that atoms in the bar are roughly 1 nm apart (which is probably an overestimate), and that forces between neighboring atoms propagate at the sound speed in the bar (which is a substantial underestimate, since the macroscopic sound speed is the collective effect of many inter-atomic interactions and is slower than the individual interactions are), then neighboring atoms will affect each other's motion on a timescale of 0.0002 nanoseconds (200 femtoseconds), or a million times as fast as the GW pulse time. So we should assume that an atom at the end of the bar will not be able to move inertially in response to the GW pulse; its motion will be constrained by inter-atomic forces, so the amplitude of its vibration in response to the GW will be much smaller than that of an inertially moving particle. In your chosen coordinates, the coordinates of an atom at the end of the bar will change in response to the GW, while the coordinates of an inertially moving particle (such as a LIGO mirror) would stay the same.
mfb said:It has to be limited, and I don’t see why this limit should be given by the speed of light instead of the speed of sound.
mfb said:If there wouldn’t be a limit you could put a floating LIGO mirror next to the end of the bar and instantaneously measure the length of the bar by comparing how mirror and end of the bar move with respect to each other.
Yes, but this difference should depend only on a few meters of the bar (at LIGO frequencies) or whatever the speed of sound allows.PeterDonis said:It is perfectly possible for atoms at both ends of the bar to be moving differently from the respective LIGO mirrors next to them, without violating causality.
Did anyone claim that?PeterDonis said:But that is not the same as saying that the two ends of the bar must be moving inertially.
mfb said:They would shift relative to each other, by an amount just given by the GW amplitude and the instantaneous length of the bar.
mfb said:Did anyone claim that?
PeterDonis said:I thought that Paul Colby was claiming it, yes. It might be that he was only claiming it for sufficiently high GW frequencies, but if so, the concrete example he gave did not illustrate the claim, because the frequency he assumed in that example was much too low.
timmdeeg said:I'm still missing the key point regarding the inertial moving of the bar (except the 2 mm Paul Colby mentioned). To my understanding GW exert tidal forces on the bar. If its atoms would be in free fall (I think a valid synonym is force free) the distances between neighboring atoms would change accordingly. And these changes summed up would result in an overall change of the length of the bar. Why do tidal forces due to GW change interatomic distances as if the atoms were in free fall although these distances are determined by attractive electrostatic forces? Or in other words why (if I see it correctly) are tidal forces dominating electrostatic forces as if the latter wouldn't almost exist?
timmdeeg said:Just as an aside we have neglected atomic vibrations with frequencies typically ##10^{13}Hz##.
Anyhow thanks for your patience. I don't know the meaning of the underlined terms, but suspect it might be difficult to explain it in ordinary language. Please consider my layman level.Paul Colby said:Move inertially is defined as moving along a particular trajectory which, in this case, is staying at rest relative to the transverse traceless coordinates. Most of the atoms in the bar are moving along an inertial trajectory. There are changing interatomic forces but they net to 0 for most atoms in the bar. This change in the interatomic force arrises from the stress field induced by the GW. It nets to zero because this stress field has zero divergence. Geometrically the mechanical stress is due to the underlying geometry (or distance between inertial points) changing with time. If you find this confusing, you're normal.
No. I just mentioned atomic vibrations but wasn't sure if they are of any relevance regarding this discussion.Paul Colby said:Can you explain how this is important?
timmdeeg said:I don't know the meaning of the underlined terms, but suspect it might be difficult to explain it in ordinary language.
timmdeeg said:I understand that most of the interatomic forces cancel within the bar. But any two neighboring atoms feel these forces
Yes, understand, thanks for clarifying this point.PeterDonis said:If the forces on a particular atom cancel, then the atom feels no force, and is therefore inertial ("inertial" means "feels no force"). That's what "cancelling" means. The term "zero divergence" can be thought of as a fancy way of saying "the forces cancel".
timmdeeg said:Do you agree that the change of interatomic distances in a bar which is falling radially towards a black hole is so tiny that its length increase is negligible compared to the case were there was magically no electrostatic bonding between the atoms of the bar?
Great. This clarifies what I was missing. Thanks a lot.PeterDonis said:This is a very different case from the case of a GW passing through a bar. In the GW case, the change in the metric coefficients is small (at least for all the cases under discussion in this thread) and periodic--which means it doesn't build up over time, it just oscillates. So the induced stress in the bar stays well within the elastic limit of the bar--i.e., it never permanently deforms its structure.
Paul Colby said:Can you explain how this is important? For a mass to move non-inertially one has to have a net force applied. The geometry of space is changed by the GW in such a way that the net force on most of the bar matter is zero. In fact the only (net) forces applied by the GW are the to the bar end surfaces[1].
pervect said:I don't think this can be right. If we have a bar in a slowly varying GW, so that the internal forces of the bar act fast enough to keep the particles of the bar the essentially at the same proper separation, only the center of the bar should have zero proper acceleration. This implies that there IS a net force on any particle not at the center of the bar. I did some more detailed calculations once upon a time of the necessary congruence to keep particles at a constant separation in a 2d plane, I'd have to dig it up, I'm not sure there is the interest. But basically, if all the particles of the bar were force-free, their separation from their neighbor would be changing.
Paul Colby said:the force due to the GW
In case 2 the atoms move inertially except those very close to the surface. So almost all atoms follow the change of the metric coefficients in free fall within their elastic limit if the GW passes by. Why then "can't the bar ends move fast enough to compensate for the distance change due to the GW" ? Because of the few atoms which are non-inertial?Paul Colby said:Well, there are two limiting cases both non-resonant, both quite different. In case 1) the frequency of GW is well below the lowest mechanical resonance, while in case 2) the GW frequency is well above the lowest mechanical resonance. By well above and well below let's say 3 orders of magnitude in each case. I was referring to case 2, not case 1, in the quoted text. In case 1) the ends of the bar can and will move to compensate for spatial distance changes due to the slowly varying metric. In case 2 the bar ends simply can't move fast enough to compensate for the distance change due to the GW.
timmdeeg said:You distinguished between two cases in #63.
In case 2 the atoms move inertially except those very close to the surface. So almost all atoms follow the change of the metric coefficients in free fall within their elastic limit if the GW passes by. Why then "can't the bar ends move fast enough to compensate for the distance change due to the GW" ? Because of the few atoms which are non-inertial?
Thanks. My problem is to understand that as you said "the bar ends simply can't move fast enough to compensate for the distance change due to the GW" even though the bar length "follows" the changes of the metric coefficients. I was naively thinking that if the bar length changes fast then its ends have to move as fast. Or at least almost as fast if one takes the forces on the boundary into account. And I'm not really sure why this reasoning is wrong.Paul Colby said:The length of the bar before the GW hits is ##L## with every atom (bit of bar) at rest. In the instant after the GW hits every atom is at exactly the same coordinate it was at prior to being hit by the GW, however, the distance between points has changed so the bar length is now, ##h_{xx}(t)L##. The bar is either compressed in length or stretched in an instant[1] depending on the GWs sign even though none of the atoms coordinates have changed.
timmdeeg said:I was naively thinking that if the bar length changes fast then its ends have to move as fast. Or at least almost as fast if one takes the forces on the boundary into account. And I'm not really sure why this reasoning is wrong.
Paul Colby said:You're 100% correct[1] in the limit you are discussing. The post you quote is the tail end of a long discussion in which different limiting cases were discussed. One thing that I think is an important takeaway is a deeper understanding of the interaction of GW with matter so you might be incline to read them. The post you quoted is referring to a very short duration GW pulse which is not slowly varying relative to the speed of sound in the bar.
[1] Well, the force due to the GW is applied just to the ends if the bar is made of isotropic materials. This is true in all cases.
pervect said:We can model the distributed bar as the limit of a lumped spring-mass system. There are two general cases When the springs are strong, we can more or less ignore the effect of the mass, and if the spring is really really stiff, the spring doesn't change length much under perturbing force and we have the classic rigid bar.
pervect said:If we can create a nearly born-rigid congruence of worldlines, there is no issue with changing coordinates away from the TT gauge coordinates, and instead using the Born rigid congruence.
PeterDonis said:I mention this because it was mentioned earlier in this thread that TT gauge coordinates are the ones usually used to analyze GW detectors (which AFAIK is the case), but also that in these coordinates the Newtonian formulation of continuum mechanics works as usual. In the light of the above remarks, I'm not entirely sure whether that is true--although it might still be a good enough approximation for weak GWs.
Paul Colby said:Seems to me the underlying assumption in the TT-gauge-Newton-works-as-usual approach is that the interatomic forces remain the same (as a function of distance) in a curved space-time.
Paul Colby said:I believe (i.e. I don't really know) that the same assumption is being made in the Born ridged coordinates.