Mathematically Modeling a Rolling Body with Slipping

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around mathematically modeling a rolling body with slipping, focusing on the dynamics of motion, friction, and the relationship between translational and rotational velocities. The original poster explores the behavior of a body in motion, particularly how points on the body move relative to the ground and each other during slipping and rolling phases.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to model the motion of a rolling body by considering it as a series of points and questions the effects of kinetic friction on these points. They raise questions about the acceleration of points on the body and the implications of their velocities during slipping and rolling. Other participants discuss the relationship between linear and angular accelerations and the role of friction in determining these dynamics.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants providing insights into the nature of friction and its effects on motion. Some participants suggest that a clearer specification of forces might simplify the problem, while others emphasize the importance of understanding the relative motions of different points on the body. There is a recognition of the complexities involved in the motion of points above and below the midpoint of the body.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the challenge of integrating the equations of motion and the implications of assumptions made about the system, such as the effects of friction and the conditions for achieving pure rolling motion. The original poster expresses a lack of familiarity with integration, which may affect their approach to the problem.

SilverSoldier
Messages
26
Reaction score
3
Homework Statement
I'm interested in finding a mathematical model that can be used to determine the positions of each point on a circular body having radius ##r##, rotating initially at an angular velocity ##\omega_0##, placed on a surface with friction. Suppose the friction causes a linear deceleration of ##a##, and angular deceleration of ##\alpha##.
Relevant Equations
Equations of linear and angular motion with constant acceleration
Basically, I want to know if my assumptions and workings are correct.

This is how I see this situation.

First, I'm viewing this body as a series of disconnected points, like I have in this animation I made, modeling purely rolling motion. Modeling the body like that worked in that case, and I'm assuming it will work here too. Please tell me if I am wrong.

1585587070269.png


Suppose ##P## to be the point that first contacts the surface. Because this body was initially rotating, this point would want to move backward relative to the surface, with velocity ##r\omega_0##.

So kinetic friction will act, and the object will be accelerated forward. First, does kinetic friction act only on this contact point? Or else, does it act on all points, and accelerate all points on the object at the same rate?

If the latter is true (and I have assumed it is true in my model), then it must further increase the velocity ##r\omega_0## of the topmost point making it move rapidly forward, and increase the horizontal velocity components of the other points above the midpoint, causing them also to move forward, whereas the lower points will be made to move backward. How is this possible?
Clearly, all points must move backward, until the object gets into purely rolling motion.

This is how I have actually modeled the object using the above assumptions.

First, because all points accelerate forward at ##a##, at a given time ##t##, their horizontal translational velocity component would be given by ##at##. The object's angular velocity ##\omega## at the same time will be given by ##\omega_0-\alpha t##, so the tangential velocity of a point due to its rotation would be ##r(\omega_0-\alpha t)##.

Thus, the net horizontal velocity of the contact point at time ##t## would be ##at-r\omega_0+r\alpha t##. When this horizontal velocity becomes ##0##, friction will stop acting, and the object will start purely rolling. That is, at time ##t=\dfrac{r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}##, it would start purely rolling.

Consider a general position ##P'## of point ##P##. Suppose it would have turned through an angle ##\theta## with respect to the new contact point. Let the translational velocity acting on it be ##v_t##, and its tangential velocity due to rotation be ##v_r##.

1585586667019.png


I can come up with the following definitions for ##\theta##, ##v_r## and ##v_t## as functions of time ##t##, as follows. Do point out any errors in them, if there are any.

$$
\theta(t)=\begin{cases}
\omega_0t-\dfrac{1}{2}\alpha t^2, & t\le \dfrac{r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}\\
\\
\dfrac{r\omega_0^2}{a+r\alpha}-\dfrac{\alpha}{2}\left(\dfrac{r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}\right)^2+\left(\omega_0-\dfrac{\alpha r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}\right)\left(t-\dfrac{r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}\right), & t >\dfrac{r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}\\
\end{cases}
$$

$$
v_r(t)=
\begin{cases}
r(\omega_0-\alpha t), & t\le \dfrac{r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}\\
\\
r\left(\omega_0-\dfrac{\alpha r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}\right), & t > \dfrac{r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}\\
\end{cases}
$$

$$
v_t(t)=
\begin{cases}
at, & t\le \dfrac{r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}\\
\\
\dfrac{a r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}, & t > \dfrac{r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}\\
\end{cases}
$$

Therefore, supposing the coordinates of ##P## on an ##xy## plane are ##(0,0)##, I can obtain the ##x## and ##y## coordinates ##(x(T), y(T))## of ##P## at any time ##T## where

$$
x(T)=\int_0^T v_t(t)-v_r(t)\cos\theta(t)dt,
$$

and

$$
y(T)=\int_0^T v_r(t)\sin\theta(t)dt.
$$

That's about it.

My question is if this approach is correct, or if there's anything wrong in it. By the way, I have very little knowledge of integration; I just know that the area under a velocity vs. time graph gives displacement :-p, and I would appreciate it if you could explain everything in the simplest terms possible.

Thank you very much for taking your time :smile:😄
 
Physics news on Phys.org
I didn't read all your equations, but in general there will be a friction force at the contact point that will determine a) the linear acceleration of the CoM; and, b) the angular deceleration. These will, therefore, be related by some equation.

Equation of any point of the wheel can be determined from the position of the centre of mass (as a function of time) and the angle of rotation (as a function of time).

If you specified things in terms of the frictional force it might be simpler.

PS the relationship between a) and b) above will depend on the moment of inertia of the wheel.
 
SilverSoldier said:
does kinetic friction act only on this contact point?
Clearly it only acts directly on the current point of contact, but by rigidity it acts on the body as a whole.
I see you are thinking of the acceleration of the body as the sum of the linear acceleration of its mass centre and a rotational acceleration about that centre. This is good, but even better if you do likewise with forces and velocities.
SilverSoldier said:
If the latter is true (and I have assumed it is true in my model), then it must further increase the velocity ##r\omega_0## of the topmost point making it move rapidly forward, and increase the horizontal velocity components of the other points above the midpoint, causing them also to move forward, whereas the lower points will be made to move backward. How is this possible?
Clearly, all points must move backward, until the object gets into purely rolling motion.
Which points are moving forwards and which backwards at any instant will not be immediately obvious. It will require equations to figure that out. Yes, points below halfway will move to the left relative to the centre, but maybe not relative to the ground.
SilverSoldier said:
Let the translational velocity acting on it be ##v_t##, and its tangential velocity due to rotation be ##v_r.##
As those are not orthogonal, you could easily confuse yourself viewing it that way.
 
haruspex said:
Yes, points below halfway will move to the left relative to the centre, but maybe not relative to the ground.

Well, the equations I have obtained are relative to the ground, and they tell me that points above the midpoint move to the right relative to the ground, and points below the midpoint move to the left relative to the ground. That is not possible, is it?
 
SilverSoldier said:
Well, the equations I have obtained are relative to the ground, and they tell me that points above the midpoint move to the right relative to the ground, and points below the midpoint move to the left relative to the ground. That is not possible, is it?

If the wheel is not moving forward but spinning on a frictionless surface then that is what will be happening. Any point on the wheel from 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock will be moving backwards. If it grips slightly and starts to move forward, then some points on the rim near the contact point will still be moving backwards relative to the ground. This will get less and less as it accelerates and slips less.

In fact, it's only once the wheel is rolling without slipping that the contact point will be instantaneously stationary and points on the rim will trace out a cycloid relative to the ground.
 
SilverSoldier said:
Well, the equations I have obtained are relative to the ground, and they tell me that points above the midpoint move to the right relative to the ground, and points below the midpoint move to the left relative to the ground. That is not possible, is it?
For after it has achieved rolling, you have
##
v_r= r\left(\omega_0-\dfrac{\alpha r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}\right) =r\left(\dfrac{a\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}\right) ##
##
v_t= \dfrac{a r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}##
and the net forward velocity of point P' is
##
v_t-v_r\cos(\theta)=\dfrac{a r\omega_0}{a+r\alpha}(1-\cos(\theta))##
This is never negative.

Prior to achieving rolling, it will be negative for some range of theta.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: PeroK

Similar threads

  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
1K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
6K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
4K
Replies
2
Views
880
  • · Replies 40 ·
2
Replies
40
Views
4K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
1K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
6K
  • · Replies 97 ·
4
Replies
97
Views
6K