Stargazing Struggling to Focus with New Telescope? Here Are Some Tips!

[Sheneron]

Hi,
I have just recently gotten a 8 inch dobsonian telescope. I have two lenses, a 9mm and a 30mm. I really enjoy going out and seeing the sky and I have a few questions to make my outings a little more successful.

The way I focus the telescope is my adjusting how far out/in the eyepiece is. Whenever I have the 30mm eyepiece in, the point where it focuses is when the eyepiece is as far back as it can possibly be and its almost a little shy. Lately I have been not completely putting the lense in the eyepiece holder so that I can better focus it. So is there a reason why the focus point is as far back as possible and is there anyway to correct that? When I use the 9mm it is not like that.

Also, I have been having trouble viewing and focusing some objects. For instance, last night I went out to view Saturn in the eastern sky. I located and began observing, but the object was very blurry and I couldn't hardly make anything out. Exchanging the 30mm for the 9mm only made things worse. The thing is that when I looked at the orion nebula in the top of the sky, it looked so good. Not blurry or anything. So I don't feel justified blaming it on the sky.

I have read that you should leave your telescope outside for an hour to acclimate to the temperature. And I didn't do that, so perhaps that was it. Also I am doing this around lights, but I am not in direct view of the lights so maybe that could be a large effect.

Sorry this is so long. If someone could tell me how to fix my 30mm focus or if that is normal, and maybe just general advice on to how to better optimize my viewing I would appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[russ_watters]

The way I focus the telescope is my adjusting how far out/in the eyepiece is. Whenever I have the 30mm eyepiece in, the point where it focuses is when the eyepiece is as far back as it can possibly be and its almost a little shy. Lately I have been not completely putting the lense in the eyepiece holder so that I can better focus it. So is there a reason why the focus point is as far back as possible and is there anyway to correct that? When I use the 9mm it is not like that.

Lack of sufficient focus travel is not uncommon - You can buy extension tubes for that. http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~category_id=optical_aids/~product_id=05123

Or, if you have a diagnoal, that will give you extra focus distance.

Also, I have been having trouble viewing and focusing some objects. For instance, last night I went out to view Saturn in the eastern sky. I located and began observing, but the object was very blurry and I couldn't hardly make anything out. Exchanging the 30mm for the 9mm only made things worse. The thing is that when I looked at the orion nebula in the top of the sky, it looked so good. Not blurry or anything. So I don't feel justified blaming it on the sky.

Well, what's the difference? With the Orion nebula, you used lower magnification and the nebula was higher in the sky: both decrease atmospheric distortion (or how noticeable it is). Saturn will be much better later iin the winter when you can view it higher in the sky.

I have read that you should leave your telescope outside for an hour to acclimate to the temperature.

It helps, but it is probably not a big factor at the magnifications you are using.

Also I am doing this around lights, but I am not in direct view of the lights so maybe that could be a large effect.

That affects your ability to see contrast and dim objects, but does not affect the resolution.

 

[montoyas7940]

Congrats on the new scope!

Tell more about it so I can have the proper amount of envy.

You might also try this on the 30mm.

http://www.optcorp.com/product.aspx?pid=9177

A parfocalizing ring will let you match the focus of your 30mm to the 9mm if they are different by at least the thickness of the ring.

I have never bought anything from the seller so I can't recommend.

 

[Waveform]

Another thing you may consider is collimating your scope. I have a 10 inch Newtonian reflector and I collimate it about every 4th viewing session. It helps with planetary and basically overall observation.

I prefer a laser collimator, however that is only personal preference.

Yes, it is a good idea to let your scope (mirror) adjust to the ambient temperature. Some Newtonian’s have a small battery operated fan mounted on the mirror to expedite the temperature balance.

A lot of these ‘little’ things will not show much of an improvement at low magnification but will certainly kick in a higher powers.

Yes, light pollution is certainly detrimental, especially in deep sky observation.

Have fun with it and enjoy your observations.

See how many Messier objects you can observe, also comets, large asteroids. The skies are full of interesting 'stuff'.

A basic tutorial site on collimating;
http://www.andysshotglass.com/Collimating.html

 

[turbo]

Congratulations on the scope. Lack of in-focus or out-focus travel is a common problem. You can withdraw the EP from the focuser slightly before clamping it with the set-screw, or buy extension tubes as suggested above. You have a good ratio with the 9mm and 30mm EPs. If you buy a 2x Barlow, that will give you the equivalent of a 4.5mm, 9mm, 15mm, and 30mm.

 

[Sheneron]

Thank you for all the advice so far. I am going to go out again tonight to do some more observing. Id really like to see Jupiter tonight but I don't think it will happen given my horizon.

My scope came with a laser collimator and I have been trying to collimate every time before I go out; However, the guide that came with my scope was very incomplete. In fact, the guide was actually for a previous version of the scope which was a fair bit different so that is a little bit frustrating. I am going to try to collimate again using a different guide.

Part of my problem is that it is so cold when I go out that its hard to fiddle around with the scope because my fingers are freezing and I am also in a rush to see what I want to because my body is also cold.

Yeah I have been looking for some messier objects. Any particular suggestions for this time of year? I have been really wanting to see some good galaxies and globular clusters.

 

[Sheneron]

Oh a couple other things...

How often do you clean your scope, what parts do you clean, and what with?

 

[turbo]

Sheneron, if you are going to observe in winter-time you must dress in many layers. My rule of thumb in northern climates is to dress like you are going to spend a day ice-fishing, then add at least another layer because of the relative inactivity involved in peering through a telescope.

As for cleaning, unless your scope somehow gets exposed to lots of dirt and dust, you should just leave it alone. A bit of dust on the primary or secondary mirror is not going to degrade the image, and you can easily damage the coatings of the mirrors with improper cleaning.

 

[Waveform]

Yes, dress warm. When you are observing there is not much actual physical effort, so one can get cold rather quick (been there got the tee shirt).
If you plan being out for some time you can purchase foot and hand warmer pouches. I find they are not the best but better than nothing.

As for cleaning the optics, I totally agree with turbo-1. It is best to leave it alone. A certain amount of dust will not cause an observing problem.
The aluminum coating on the optics in only in the order of 90nm ±10nm thick. It takes very little to damage the surface.
Even the mirrors with SiO2 coating on the aluminum have their tolerable limits.

We have a 18 inch Newtonian at our observatory. It has been in a rural unattended, unheated building now for several years and with the amount of normal usage the dust accumulation has really not affected the quality of observing.

If however it becomes absolutely essential for one reason or another to clean the optics. The best solution is 50% distilled H2O and 50% alcohol using cotton swab material.
The actual cleaning done very, very lightly.
It is amazing how easy it is to mar the surface.

Clear skies

Ron

 

[Sheneron]

Alright, I will forget about cleaning the telescope.

I am trying to collimate the scope right now, and I only have a laser collimator. I have been reading online and it seems a lot of people like to use a collimator cap versus a laser. Well I also read I should collimate my collimator, which seemed like a good idea so I did. Here is a picture of how far off the laser is when I rotate it by 90 degrees:

http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scanhq9.jpg

The markings on the bottom are inch markings, so that is quite small; however, there still is some error there. Will that little bit make a noticible difference in not quite correctly aligning my mirror? Would it be wise to invest in a different collimation device other than a laser?

 

[Waveform]

Unfortunately, I cannot see you jpg for some reason or another.

Yes, I have used collimator caps and I find them great.

I only use the laser primarily because it's fast. Thing is, if the scope is kept in good 'alignment' it only takes a short time to 'fine tuning' when observing. This can be done on only a couple of minutes.

Yes, some people will use nothing but a collimator cap, some like the Cheshire sight tube.
Personally I think it it very good.

Will that little bit make a noticeable difference in not quite correctly aligning my mirror?

This may be an argumentative point, but Yes.

I have found with mine, they can be just ever so slightly off and they will not perform as well as their potential.
As the magnification goes up the performance can drop of almost exponentially.

I apologize if I sound 'sticky or critical ' here, but anyone observing should have the very best views they can get. It keeps the interest and enjoyment up.

LOL, it's like the guitar.
If I play, the instrument has to be in true tune. If it's just a bit off, the same amount of enjoyment and sound is just not there.

 

[Sheneron]

Thanks for the advice so far Waveform I appreciate it.

So would you recommend getting a collimation cap or Cheshire sight tube? I would like to have the best collimated scope as possible and if that little uncollimated bit of the laser will make a difference then perhaps it would be better to use a more reliable method. It seems hard to get the laser collimator perfectly collimated, so I think I will look into both of those in order to get the best seeing possible.

I used that guide and spent sometime collimating my scope yesterday. My instruction manual left out the part about adjusting the tilt of the secondary in order to reflect the light into the center of the primary. The manual only told me to get the laser collimator to reflect back onto itself properly by adjusting the tilt of the primary, but it said nothing about centering the primary with the secondary. I mean how could it leave that part out? So I did those steps and I looked at Venus and it was the best I have seen yet, and the difference of having a properly collimated scope made a huge difference with my 9mm, it was great. I am going out again tonight.

Clear skies!

 

[Waveform]

Just a personal preference, I would use the Cheshire sight tube. Easy to use, inexpensive and quite accurate.

Yes absolutely agreed, sometimes instruction manuals leave a lot to be desired.

In fact I think some technical writers don't seem to have a good grasp on communication.

 

[Sheneron]

How does this one look? Is this a good price?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00009R7RJ/?tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[Waveform]

Yes, It seem to be a relatively good price. Similar to the one I have.

The thing with accessories such as this, if and when you ever get the aperture fever and decide to get to a larger scope, theses thing will work.

Adapters such a 'T' rings for cameras, 1.25" to 2.00" eyepiece adapters and such are readily available and not expensive by any means.

Just slightly off topic for a moment. I had the 10" Newtonian out last night. The moon and Orion nebula were awesome. I found the transparency quite good last night before it clouded over. However, it was a dress warm night.

Yup, I did a collimation before I took it out.

 

[russ_watters]

Collimation for low power observing can be done adequately with a device like that, but I would suggest collimating with a star for high power observing or at the very least as a double-check of the laser collimation method. Some info:

STAR COLLIMATON



A star test is required as a verification of whatever method you use. That means a star test for collimation. The best site I have found that explains how to star collimate is here. If the collimation method you use proves accurate via a star test, then you should stick with that. One word of caution: a precise star collimation check must be done in the best of seeing conditions. Simply defocusing on a star and evaluating the concentricity of the diffraction rings is good enough to get in the ballpark, but won't tell you if you're gnat's *** on. That requires an in focus star with a steady airy disc and that requires very good seeing. Don't be lulled into a false sense of security by those apparently perfect out of focus diffraction rings. They are not precise enough to get that final tweak for perfection.



WHY BOTHER?



So, really, how important is collimation? In my experience with my XT10, it is critical. With a slower f/6 or f/8 telescope, it is still critical, you just don't have to be as accurate as with the f/4.7 XT10. I can say for certain that 1/30th of a turn on one of the collimation knobs will mean the difference between seeing 4 craterletes in Plato and 9 craterletes. It could make the difference in spying the Enke division in Saturn's rings. More often than not, though, poor seeing will mask any errors that may exist in your collimation. If the seeing is bad, you might not see any craterletes in Plato or even the Cassini division in Saturn's rings no matter how accurately you are collimated. But why miss an opportunity to see such detail because of something you have complete control over?

http://www.tomhole.com/Barlowed%20Laser.htm

Note that they suggest using a barlow with the laser.

Here's more on the star test: http://legault.club.fr/collim.html

 

[Redbelly98]

It's a good idea to avoid moisture condensation on the optics, which can happen when you bring a telescope indoors after spending time out in the cold. What do people do about this?

My approach (in my limited observing experience) was to cap/cover the telescope and all eyepieces before bringing them back inside. My thinking is that will keep the indoor moist warm air from contacting the optics.

 

[russ_watters]

My approach (in my limited observing experience) was to cap/cover the telescope and all eyepieces before bringing them back inside. My thinking is that will keep the indoor moist warm air from contacting the optics.

That's about the best thing you can do. Beyond that - don't use a humidifier inside.

 

[Waveform]

Yes, this really tends to be a problem when moving a scope between temps, humidity, and dew points.

Personally I also cap the optics if I have move the scopes. However, I primarily leave the scope out.
I have it well covered and protected.

This is why a lot of people will build small observatories (shed's, small out building and such with sliding roofs). It minimizes moving the telescopes and also the wide swings in temperature.

Even the 80mm refractor, I try to leave it out, much as possible.

However, if circumstances warrant the scope must be brought in, then I agree with russ_watters unless you want to start playing around with 12volt Dew Heaters.

 

[mgb_phys]

Another technique is to put the scope inside a garbage bag and close the end while outside. The scope is then packed in dry air before you bring it indoors.

 

[russ_watters]

However, if circumstances warrant the scope must be brought in, then I agree with russ_watters unless you want to start playing around with 12volt Dew Heaters.

Well - depending on where you live and what equipment you use, they may be a requirement. They are for me.

 

[Sheneron]

Thanks for the advice, and thanks for telling me about covering the scope to prevent dew; I didn't know that should be done.

 

[Sheneron]

Hi again
I am trying to collimate my telescope for tonight, but I am having some problems. I am stuck on the first step... I am using a cheshire eyepiece which I just bought.

The first step reads: Insert eh Collimation eyepiece into the focuser far enough that the bottom edge of the barrel appears slightly larger than the outer edge of the secondary mirror when looking through the site hole.

The problem that I am having is that I can not even see the edge of my secondary mirror. The secondary mirror fills up the entire barrel, and then just a little bit more. What should I do? Is that normal?

 

[Sheneron]

Wait, nevermind

 

[Sheneron]

Ok, new problem. I can see the edge of the secondary mirror as well as the secondary mirror holder. However, I can't see the bottom edge. What I need to do is adjust that upwards from the perspective of looking through the focuser. I know that turning the screw in the center adjusts is left and right, but how do I adjust it up and down?

 

[russ_watters]

What is the model of the telescope?

 

[Sheneron]

This is my scope:
http://www.telescopes.com/telescope...humellz8deluxedobsonianreflectortelescope.cfm

I should add, the manual that came with the scope is grossly incomplete and did not even mention adjusting the secondary mirror at all.

Oh and I should add again, The secondary mirror is held by 4 support beams. It looks the same as the scope in this video: http://www.andysshotglass.com/Collimating.html

 

[Sheneron]

I found this website: http://www.adur-astronomical.com/collimation/astro babys collimation guide.htm

and my scope has screws the same as that for adjust the spider vanes. However, mine are so tight that I can not turn any of them. Does anyone have experience with this? I'd like some advice before I really try to twist them.

 

[Sheneron]

Yes, the secondary mirror is not centered with the primary when looking down the OTA. I need to figure out how to adjust the spider vanes so that I can center it. I was hoping to go out tonight, so if anyone know anything you know where to find me. Thanks.

 

[Sheneron]

I called the company to make sure I could turn those screws, and yes I can. So I think I am getting it! Can't wait to go out tonight with a perfectly collimated scope. I will also try the star collimation.

 

[Redbelly98]

Great! FYI, it may be easier to do the collimation and finder-scope alignment in daytime.

Good luck.

Mark

 

[Sheneron]

Nevermind, I am still having a problem. No matter what I do I can't get the secondary mirror centered. When looking through the sight-tube, the secondary mirror is centered in the x-axis, but it is not centered in the y-axis. I can see the top of the secondary with some room, but I can't even see the bottom at all.

 

[montoyas7940]

Is the secondary too close to the primary?

 

[Sheneron]

No I am talking about the other direction. I have it centered in that direction. When I look through the focuser I can only see the top and not the bottom no matter how I adjust the spider vanes. Does anyone know how to fix this?

 

[Sheneron]

How exactly centered does the secondary mirror need to be? Does it make a large difference?

 

[Sheneron]

...now my screw aren't even tilting the mirror. I can't figure out at all how to get this collimated. I have been trying basically all night. So frustrating... another night lost.

 

[Redbelly98]

Since none of us are there to see with our own eyes what is going on, you might try finding an amateur astronomy club in your area. There are many of them scattered throughout the U.S., you can probably find the closest one with a google search.

Most clubs hold monthly meetings, and have members that are more than willing to help out somebody with their first telescope. Try bringing your scope to the next meeting, leaving it in the car at first. Then ask around with the people you meet there if anyone could help aligning it after the meeting's over.

p.s. Or, you may find that trying this in daytime when you're less tired works better too

 

[Sheneron]

I guess it would be best to get people to help me. I have been doing it during the daytime, still no luck. I understand the whole collimation process, I understand everything I need to do and what I am seeing when I look through the collimation eyepiece, but I can't get anything to move. I can't get the mirror to tilt (anymore), and I can't get the secondary to move towards or away from the primary.

 

[Sheneron]

At this point, I am just hoping I didn't mess anything up. Because like I said none of the screws are moving anything anymore. Luckily I have quite a warranty on the scope, but that is such a hassle. Next break from school I will have to call the company to see if I can get it working again.

I was debating whether to try to get it perfectly collimated and adjust the secondary mirror and now I wish I hadn't. Hopefully I will be able to find someone that can help me.

Thanks for the help so far.

 

[Waveform]

You don’t want the secondary mirror moving latterly to the primary mirror. If any adjustment are made in the secondary it will only be angular (tilt) to the primary.
If you are having problems with the then go back to the laser. Some times it is easier to alight the two optical axes when you can see the results.

Sight the scope on a distant object, preferably a star and leave the focuser at that point.
Insert the laser in the eyepiece, adjust the tilt of the secondary, until the beam is centered on the primary mirror, then adjust the primary to return the beam to the center of the secondary.
This will put you quite close to collimated At least enough for good viewing.

Try not to get frustrated. Under the very best circumstance the process can take 20 minutes to several hours depending on the initial alignment of the scope.

Just to quickly interject. This is no help to you of course, however several years ago I had a 8 inch Celestron that I almost pulled my hair out trying to collimate.
In the end I found out the spider was defective and prevented a good collimation.
This is probably not the case here. I am under the impression Orion produces good scopes.

I really feel sorry now that I mentioned collimation. It really should not have caused this much of a problem.
However, at times it can be a pain.

 

[montoyas7940]

In the end I found out the spider was defective and prevented a good collimation.
This is probably not the case here. I am under the impression Orion produces good scopes.

Maybe he does have a defective spider.
I am suspicious of his secondary position. Because he has the focuser stroke problem in addition to the collimation problem.

 

[Sheneron]

I think I really need to get someone to look at it, I am just not yet sure who. There is no way I can get the company to help me over the phone, plus the manual it came with is no help at all.

I thought you had to adjust the secondary's position in addition to the tilt in order to center it under the focuser?

 

[Waveform]

Maybe he does have a defective spider.
I am suspicious of his secondary position. Because he has the focuser stroke problem in addition to the collimation problem.

Yes exactly montoyas, I concur...

He should not be having these problems collimating. If the mirror supports, both primary and secondary and scope are 'true' regardless of how far out of alignment one gets, it can still be brought back to relatively good collimation.

 

[Sheneron]

What should I do?

 

[Chronos]

Loosen your mirror mount screws [the ones on the tube, not mirror mount to mirror[.

 

[Sheneron]

The ones that connect the spider vane to the tube?

 

[Waveform]

The screws on the spider control the right angle movement of the secondary mirror. The screws on the primary and secondary mirror control the linear angle between them.

The idea of collimating is to have both the primary and secondary ‘looking’ directly at each other then projecting to the eyepiece.

Think of a laser at the eye piece. The beam going to the center of the secondary mirror, reflecting at a right angle to the center of the primary mirror.
The primary mirror being adjusted to reflect the beam back to the center of the secondary, then to the eyepiece.
This is what you are attempting to adjust for.
In some scopes this will take only several minutes, in others it will absolutely try your patients.

When you have the optical axis optimally ‘lined up’ you have done all you can. The observing view after that point will depend on the eyepiece and the tolerance (wavelength) the mirror was produced to.

Do you have an astronomy club in your area?

 

[Sheneron]

Relatively close, yes. I guess I will try to get there sometime soon. The problem is that I am in school so I don't go home very much, and when I do its for short periods. Would it be acceptable to bring my telescope to the club on the very first time I meet them? I don't want them to think I am using them.

Also, I understand the collimation process quite well at this point. I have read and watched so many things about it to try to get mine to work. If I understand correctly then you want the the eyepiece centered with the secondary mirror, which is done with collimation cap. Well with my scope, the secondary mirror (when viewed through the collimation cap) is centered to the left and right but not up and down. I can only see the top half of the secondary mirror. Furthermore, at the current time, I can no longer tilt the secondary mirror or move it whatsoever. The screws seem to be doing nothing. I am wee bit scared because this scope was a big investment...

 

[montoyas7940]

We are the blind monks examining the elephant...

 

[Chronos]

The ones that connect the spider vane to the tube?

Not those, the ones holding the primary mirror mount.