Programs Parents Won't Pay for Physics Major

[MrsNemisis]

My dad and I have been discussing my academic future lately, and he has said that he won't pay for me to major in physics because of the extra time it would take me. He also says that if I decide to major in physics or any field that will take me more than five semesters (from now, not from start to finish), I will have to move out.

My biggest problem is that I started full time at community college when I was 16, and I had no idea what I wanted to do, so I just took the classes that looked fun, easy, or that I could get into for a particular term, and ended up with an AA in Langauge Arts. My math background isn't great. I took up to Algebra II in high school, but no geometry, and since I left high school early to attend college, that was as far as I went. In college, I took Intermediate Algebra and College Algebra. Looking back, I wish I'd taken at least through Calculus, but I didn't.

Now, at 18, I'm transferring to Cal State Fullerton for the Fall semester, and I have a better idea of what I want to do. Due to the sequence of classes I have to take for my Liberal Studies major (with an emphasis in the depiction of science in mass media), I'll be able to take Pre-Calc and Calculus, as well as Fundamental Physics and the lab that goes with it, but that will be as far as I can go.

I'm not allowed to work more than a part-time job, and this job has to pay for all of my extracurricular school expenses as well as savings and anything I want to do socially, so it's very difficult to save enough money to put myself through enough classes to get a second bachelor's degree, and even harder to find a school that will accept candidates for a second bachelor's degree, but I really want to do physics.

Also, I don't qualify for any student aid because of the amount of money my dad makes, but since he is supporting my brother, my step-mom, and me without any supplemental incomes, money is really tight, and my brother is starting college either next year or the year after.

A few other facts that may or may not be relevant: I haven't had any formal physics education because of how early I left high school, but I've read lots of mainstream physics books (Michio Kaku, Stephen Hawking, etc.) and I like to watch physics lectures online. I'm decent at math, but not great (pretty much all B's except for one F I got when I was taking 19 units of difficult classes, which I repeated and got a B in). I currently have Junior standing, and my dad has agreed to pay for five more semesters, but only if I can finish in five semesters.

I would really appreciate any suggestions, even though I know that this is pretty much an impossible predicament. Thanks for reading!

 

[ParticleGrl]

If you haven't had calculus yet, you don't know if you are good at math- everything before calculus is just accounting.

Also, physics isn't like the popular books. The best thing you can do- get yourself a copy of Kleppner and Kolenkow's Intro to Mechanics book and Purcell's Electricity and Magnetism and start working through them. See if you actually like the subject before you dive in headlong.

 

[mege]

While I forget the exact rules: if you are no longer 'living at home' you do not need to claim your parents income when applying for aid/loans. Even if you do have your parent's income accounted for: you should qualify for unsubsidized, basic loans.

If you don't mind answering: what reason has your father given for limiting you to 5 more semesters of school? (especially since you're only 18)

Personally, when I started school my father highly suggested that I get an engineering degree because of the marketability (I wanted to do Computer Science and both of my parents are Engineers). When I was 17-18 and going to college, who was I to argue? 10 years later, I never graduated with an engineering degree and am fairly close to a Physics BS. Point being: don't be afraid to ask some of the 'why?' questions of your parents (always respectfully, of course). The other thing to ask yourself is WHY do you feel the desire to go into physics? If you haven't taken any college-level math or science, you will have a long road ahead of you just because of class sequencing (could easily turn into 5 years). Maybe your best goal is to complete a degree in a field that you enjoy and is attainable and work on some of the math/science on the way (I imagine that even an English or teaching degree requires some sort of math/science - just don't take the easy way out!).

 

[MrsNemisis]

I've read some actual physics textbooks that I checked out from the library and I did enjoy them, not only popular books. My biggest reason for deciding which physics books I read is money. Popular science books are 10-20 dollars, while textbooks can be several hundred.

You have to be 24 to no longer claim your parents for financial aid, and I'm still living at home, so it doesn't really matter either way.

I've already taken two years of community college, and my dad told me that I can only take four years of school, but he gave me an extra semester in exchange for writing a book, so I have five semesters left.

I have had college level algebra, just not calculus yet, and I've dabbled a little with the Calculus for Dummies book.

 

[Harrisonized]

The road to becoming a physicist is long and hard without calculus. It's like trying to do pull ups without muscles. It just won't happen properly. If you only have 5 semesters left, I suggest you bail now. Learning all the mathematical tools you need may take you well over 3 semesters. After that, you have 2 semesters to do actual physics, or to actually understand the physics that you were forced to push through because you lack the math to actually understand it.

Why do you want to do physics? Why not take some other science that doesn't take as much math (for example, chemistry) and make yourself employable?

 

[dh363]

If you already have been in college, I assume most gen ed requirements are done, right? Why would it take more than 5 semesters to essentially just cover the major coursework? Shouldn't be that hard to just take a bunch of classes if you can handle it.

 

[member 392791]

Why would he want you to leave with a degree in liberal studies which will earn you nothing? Even if it takes you more than 5 semesters to finish a degree that will get you a decent job (not saying physics does this).

 

[Mépris]

Why is doing it in 6 semesters impossible? You have the summer to learn calculus. Do it. Then start immediately with the books by Kleppner and Kolenkow or the Berkeley Physics Series. Kleppner has a "quick calculus" book but I'm not sure if this will be suitable for a first course.

Now, I'm only a student myself, so I may be wrong but from what I understand, it's okay to just learn the math needed for your physics classes. That can be done fairly quickly. Then, later, you can come back and and re-learn the math in a more rigorous way.

Anyway, you've already done two years of classes in liberal arts, which means that you probably won't have many general education requirements to take care of. Five semesters should be enough if you've already learned calculus and linear algebra on your own. The issue, though, is whether you'll be comfortable moving that quickly. And also whether it'll actually be a good thing. I've seen different extremes on this. I know of a college (in India) which uses Griffiths (E&M) and Goldstein+Landau/Lifgarbagez (Classical Mechanics) in their second semester, when most of those are junior/senior (and in some places, grad) level courses. There's also colleges who teach general physics I and II, followed by Classical Mechanics I and E&M, which they do again in the junior year, but with more sophistication.

 

[mege]

I've read some actual physics textbooks that I checked out from the library and I did enjoy them, not only popular books. My biggest reason for deciding which physics books I read is money. Popular science books are 10-20 dollars, while textbooks can be several hundred.

You have to be 24 to no longer claim your parents for financial aid, and I'm still living at home, so it doesn't really matter either way.

I've already taken two years of community college, and my dad told me that I can only take four years of school, but he gave me an extra semester in exchange for writing a book, so I have five semesters left.

I have had college level algebra, just not calculus yet, and I've dabbled a little with the Calculus for Dummies book.

Just as a note - you probably have 5 semesters of math left, at least, before you could do much upper-level physics. Even if you have all of your composition and humanities fulfilled - there are still 90+ credits of math/science you'll need to do.

Precalc/Trig > Calc 1 > Calc 2 > Calc 3 > Linear Algebra* > Differential Equations > upper division physics classes
*Linear Algebra can generally be taken any time after calc 2 coincidentally with Calc 3 or Diffeq (opinions vary on this a bit and can depend on your school) and Diffeq can be taken at the same time as some intermediate mechanics (though I don't suggest it)

 

[ParticleGrl]

you probably have 5 semesters of math left, at least, before you could do much upper-level physics.

Nonsense. I know tons of physicists (as in actual, practicing physicists) that never took diff eq. in college, did just fine. A lot of the math you can learn as you go.

You need calc 1, calc2, linear algebra, calc 3, but you can take them at the same time as other physics courses. Do calc1 with kleppner level mechanics, calc 2 with Purcell level E/M.

Then, calc 3, linear algebra, waves/optics. Next semester Griffith's level quantum, Griffith's level E/M (a cakewalk after Purcell), and Thornton-Marion level classical mechanics.

Final semester, quantum 2, solid state, thermo, particle physics if it interests you.

I think that should be enough at most schools to cover the major.

 

[Jorriss]

You need calc 1, calc2, linear algebra, calc 3, but you can take them at the same time as other physics courses. Do calc1 with kleppner level mechanics, calc 2 with Purcell level E/M.

I too know lots of people who have never taken diff eq and get by. Infact, some don't even take linear algebra and just learn it as necessary. Of course, I'd always recommend taking both but if you were really on a five semester timeline you'd have to make some sacrifices.

 

[Angry Citizen]

I know tons of physicists (as in actual, practicing physicists) that never took diff eq. in college

How is that possible..? I can't even imagine trying to do physics without a firm knowledge of differential equations. Its usefulness is beyond contestation. I sat an exam last semester, and I came across a spring problem. I couldn't remember the formulas, so I re-derived them from the differential equations. No way could I have done that without knowing the subject pretty well.

 

[turbo]

@OP: can you not pay your own way? I came from a very poor family, and by 1969 when I enrolled in college it was quite obvious that I would have to work my way through college - my parents just couldn't have afforded it. There was precious little financial aid awarded back then, perhaps because the Viet Nam war was in full swing, and lots of guys wanted to get student deferments. Still, I managed to work through college and pay my way. It wasn't easy, but it was do-able. My parents could not have done it. They helped as much as they could, but I carried the load.

 

[Mépris]

How is that possible..? I can't even imagine trying to do physics without a firm knowledge of differential equations. Its usefulness is beyond contestation. I sat an exam last semester, and I came across a spring problem. I couldn't remember the formulas, so I re-derived them from the differential equations. No way could I have done that without knowing the subject pretty well.

What a lot of physics majors do is take "Mathematical Methods for Physicists" or "Mathematical Physics" type courses. Here's a free one by James Nearing. On the page are a few more by other authors.

Also, take a look at this. They may not be the best example, seeing as they seem pretty "hardcore", in that they move quite fast. However, the webpage is easy to navigate, with full course descriptions and textbooks used. Good resource, imo.

So, some physics majors don't actually ever take a dedicated class to the math tools they use. They just learn them along the way or learn them from such "math methods" courses. A friend of mine, who's doing a PhD in HEP, suggests that one should go back and "formalise" the math they learned. Especially if they're working on highly mathematical stuff. In any case, going to back "formalise" would have been nice, whether it's useful or not. (provided one has the time)

 

[ilhan8]

you can become a self-taught physicist using this forum and internet mainly wikipedia articles of physics.
this is what I think. today, it is possible to become a self-taught scientist by the help of internet.
I think acedemic degree gives only a social status.

 

[MrsNemisis]

I put together a semester-by-semester list of the classes I need to take, and I added some foreign languages classes because I like to always be taking at least four classes. These meet all of the requirements, but with the necessary sequencing the best I could do was fit them into seven semesters. My dad will pay for five, but then I'm on my own for a year of schooling.

I've been trying to get a job, but it isn't easy. I applied at Starbucks, several fast food places, a bookstore, a department store, and Best Buy, but so far, no luck.

Semester 1
Chemistry 115 Introductory General Chemistry (4)
Math 125 Precalculus (5)
Upper Division G.E. 1 (3)
Japanese 203 Intermediate Japanese-A (5)

Semester 2
Chemistry 120A General Chemistry (5)
Math 150A Calculus (4)
Upper Division G.E. 2 (3)
Japanese 204 Intermediate Japanese-B (5)

Semester 3
Chemistry 125 General Chemistry for Engineers (3)
Math 150B Calculus (4)
Physics 225 Fundamental Physics: Mechanics (3)
Physics 225L Lab (1)
German 101 Fundamental German-A (5)

Semester 4
Math 250A Multivariate Calculus (4)
Upper Division Science Elective (3)
Physics 226 Fundamental Physics: Electricity and Magnetism (3)
Physics 226L Lab (1)
German 102 Fundamental German-B (5)

Semester 5
Physics 227 Fundamental Physics: Waves, Optics, and Modern Physics (3)
Physics 227L Lab (1)
Physics 300 Survey of Mathematical Physics (3)
Physics 380 Methods of Experimental Physics (3)
German 203 Intermediate German-A (3)

Semester 6
Physics 310 Thermodynamics, Kinetic Theory and Statistical Physics (3)
Physics 320 Classical Mechanics (4)
Physics 330 Electromagnetic Theory (4)
Physics 340 Modern Physics (4)

Semester 7
Physics 414 Physics of the Solar System (3)
Physics 454 Introduction to the Solid State of Matter (3)
Physics 455 Introduction to Quantum Physics (3)
Physics 476 Atomic/Molecular Physics (3)
Physics 481 Experimental Physics (3)

Any new advice based off of this plan? I think I can test out of pre-calc if I study over the summer, but I'm not 100% sure. I don't think I can get out of any of the other classes, except depending on which upper division science elective I pick, it might double count as one of my upper division G.E. classes.

 

[Nabeshin]

How is that possible..? I can't even imagine trying to do physics without a firm knowledge of differential equations. Its usefulness is beyond contestation. I sat an exam last semester, and I came across a spring problem. I couldn't remember the formulas, so I re-derived them from the differential equations. No way could I have done that without knowing the subject pretty well.

The reason is that most differential equations which show up in undergrad physics problems are either a) ones you can write down the solution to immediately (SHO, for example), b) those you can integrate fairly straight forward, c) those which have a known solution, but you're not expected to derive (bessel functions, etc.), or d) those which aren't solvable analytically. It's nice of course to know how to do a) and c), but it's not really strictly necessary. As for practicality, I certainly haven't used the method of integrating factors or characteristic equations of second order equations ever in my undergraduate physics.

 

[Nabeshin]

I put together a semester-by-semester list of the classes I need to take, and I added some foreign languages classes because I like to always be taking at least four classes. These meet all of the requirements, but with the necessary sequencing the best I could do was fit them into seven semesters. My dad will pay for five, but then I'm on my own for a year of schooling.

I've been trying to get a job, but it isn't easy. I applied at Starbucks, several fast food places, a bookstore, a department store, and Best Buy, but so far, no luck.

Semester 1
Chemistry 115 Introductory General Chemistry (4)
Math 125 Precalculus (5)
Upper Division G.E. 1 (3)
Japanese 203 Intermediate Japanese-A (5)

Semester 2
Chemistry 120A General Chemistry (5)
Math 150A Calculus (4)
Upper Division G.E. 2 (3)
Japanese 204 Intermediate Japanese-B (5)

Semester 3
Chemistry 125 General Chemistry for Engineers (3)
Math 150B Calculus (4)
Physics 225 Fundamental Physics: Mechanics (3)
Physics 225L Lab (1)
German 101 Fundamental German-A (5)

Semester 4
Math 250A Multivariate Calculus (4)
Upper Division Science Elective (3)
Physics 226 Fundamental Physics: Electricity and Magnetism (3)
Physics 226L Lab (1)
German 102 Fundamental German-B (5)

Semester 5
Physics 227 Fundamental Physics: Waves, Optics, and Modern Physics (3)
Physics 227L Lab (1)
Physics 300 Survey of Mathematical Physics (3)
Physics 380 Methods of Experimental Physics (3)
German 203 Intermediate German-A (3)

Semester 6
Physics 310 Thermodynamics, Kinetic Theory and Statistical Physics (3)
Physics 320 Classical Mechanics (4)
Physics 330 Electromagnetic Theory (4)
Physics 340 Modern Physics (4)

Semester 7
Physics 414 Physics of the Solar System (3)
Physics 454 Introduction to the Solid State of Matter (3)
Physics 455 Introduction to Quantum Physics (3)
Physics 476 Atomic/Molecular Physics (3)
Physics 481 Experimental Physics (3)

Any new advice based off of this plan? I think I can test out of pre-calc if I study over the summer, but I'm not 100% sure. I don't think I can get out of any of the other classes, except depending on which upper division science elective I pick, it might double count as one of my upper division G.E. classes.

Just eyeballing, this looks really inefficient. Your first two semesters are spent, in essence, just taking precalc and calc. I realize that the math background is a bit of an issue, but really this is where you can maybe cut down two semesters. If, for example, you self-studied these topics before hand, you could really start in your semester 3 without losing anything towards the physics major. It might be difficult since likely your grasp of precalculus and calculus will be weaker than if you took a formal course, but if you are determined to get it done in five semesters this is an option.

(Or are three semesters of chemistry required for your physics major? If so, this changes a little, but you can still likely trim a semester out.)

 

[MrsNemisis]

The first chemistry class is a prerequisite because I didn't take it in high school, and the others are degree requirements. Pre-calc is a similar situation, but the other calculus classes are also degree requirements. None of the foreign languages are required.

 

[Mépris]

^
Then you can cut down on the language classes. Choose one of German or Japanese and then pick up the rest on your own, when you find the time. Look up the website "AllJapaneseAllTheTime" or "AJATT".

 

[MrsNemisis]

The problem is that cutting down on language classes won't cut semesters because of the sequence required with the calculus and physics classes. I only added the language classes after I made a schedule of the degree requirements and prerequisites to fill in gaps so that each semester has at least four classes.

 

[Mépris]

Having one class less means you have more time to study the physics and math. It also means you can find more time to rest, since you will also be working part-time.

 

[Angry Citizen]

Consider doing the first two semesters at a community college on the cheap, then transferring it to a university. Ask your father to pay for the five semesters at university, and you can work/get aid for the part done in community college. Presto!

 

[Pyrrhus]

you can become a self-taught physicist using this forum and internet mainly wikipedia articles of physics.
this is what I think. today, it is possible to become a self-taught scientist by the help of internet.
I think acedemic degree gives only a social status.

This is nonsense. I would ignore this advice.

 

[Harrisonized]

The problem is that cutting down on language classes won't cut semesters because of the sequence required with the calculus and physics classes. I only added the language classes after I made a schedule of the degree requirements and prerequisites to fill in gaps so that each semester has at least four classes.

Your schedule looks much more plausible than the "5 semesters" you were talking about earlier. What kind of physicists are you going to be? It seems like you're taking a lot of single classes on unrelated physics subjects. Why are you taking "survey of" classes? Are they required? Also, what do the classes called "experimental" physics encompass? You should always try to take labs one semester after you take the lecture for the class (or concurrently, if you think you can handle it).

I'm not the first to say this, but cut either Japanese or German. There's no point in taking more than one language. Ideally if you didn't have to take a language, you shouldn't. You're going to forget it all in a few years anyways, and you're paying money to learn it when you can learn it for free at home, by traveling to the country and living there, or by talking to friends. You're also being graded on how well you learn the language, which I personally think is stupid, but that's how universities rip you off; by selling classes that you don't need.

Did you really put it into make your schedule four classes per semester? Because it seems like German makes five every time. If you really want to take more classes, you should be taking more physics classes in specific areas of concentration so that you can prepare for research or some other physics-related job rather than an extraneous language.

The reason is that most differential equations which show up in undergrad physics problems are either a) ones you can write down the solution to immediately (SHO, for example), b) those you can integrate fairly straight forward, c) those which have a known solution, but you're not expected to derive (bessel functions, etc.), or d) those which aren't solvable analytically. It's nice of course to know how to do a) and c), but it's not really strictly necessary. As for practicality, I certainly haven't used the method of integrating factors or characteristic equations of second order equations ever in my undergraduate physics.

This is very difficult to believe. You were a physics major? The SHO, which you specifically mention, requires the use characteristic equation. Have you tried to solve the DE for damped harmonic oscillators? Have you come across the E/M differential equations for LRC circuits? Have you never brute forced your way through the Schrodinger equation? These are not only undergrad problems, they are lower-division undergrad problems.

Unless you're exaggerating and giving bad advice.

you can become a self-taught physicist using this forum and internet mainly wikipedia articles of physics.
this is what I think. today, it is possible to become a self-taught scientist by the help of internet.
I think acedemic degree gives only a social status.

I lol'd. It's possible, but highly improbable and implausible. Also, Wikipedia is crap for learning.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Why do you want to major in physics as opposed to just taking courses in it? I think the answer to that question might be useful in charting a path.

 

[Nabeshin]

This is very difficult to believe. You were a physics major? The SHO, which you specifically mention, requires the use characteristic equation. Have you tried to solve the DE for damped harmonic oscillators? Have you come across the E/M differential equations for LRC circuits? Have you never brute forced your way through the Schrodinger equation? These are not only undergrad problems, they are lower-division undergrad problems.

I stand by what I said. For all the specifics you mention, I would just write down the solution since I know the general form for all of them. I have very, very rarely needed to invoke any of the full machinery from a DE class. Now, obviously I know general forms because I have used it so many times and derived it myself in a DE class, but my point is that it's possible to get by without taking the class. I'm not advocating doing this, just saying that it's possible. Looking back, any of the stuff (characteristic equations) that could be useful from DE one could easily learn through a week or two of self-study.

 

[Angry Citizen]

Also, Wikipedia is crap for learning.

For learning physics, yes, but back to your point regarding foreign languages, I've learned quite a bit of French just from Wikipedia and Wiktionary. It's a bit of a catch-22 to learn foreign languages by living in a foreign country - in order to live in a foreign country, command of the language is generally required, particularly if you intend to hold a job.

 

[MrsNemisis]

The majority of the physics classes I listed are required for the degree, including the surveys. The seventh semester fits the required number of physics electives and fits into the sequence well.

Physics 414 Physics of the Solar System (3)
Physics 454 Introduction to the Solid State of Matter (3)
Physics 455 Introduction to Quantum Physics (3)
Physics 476 Atomic/Molecular Physics (3)
Physics 481 Experimental Physics (3)

The labs are all co-requisites, so I have to take them in the same semester, and I don't count labs as separate classes, so the German would only make four. I can't take more physics classes per semester because of the sequence they have to be taken in.

Right now I'm interested in particle astrophysics primarily, but I kind of jump around, so I may be interested in something new by the time I finish my degree.

The reason I want to major in physics is that I'd like to go to graduate school, and the majority of the graduate schools I've been looking into require that your undergrad degree be in physics or a closely related field.

Experimental Physics class description: Experiments using analog, digital, and integrated circuits, including filtering circuits, diodes, transistor amplifiers, operational amplifiers, triggers, and digital logic. Introduction to automated experimentation. (1 hour lecture, 6 hours laboratory). Instructional fee required.

 

[R.P.F.]

How is that possible..? I can't even imagine trying to do physics without a firm knowledge of differential equations. Its usefulness is beyond contestation. I sat an exam last semester, and I came across a spring problem. I couldn't remember the formulas, so I re-derived them from the differential equations. No way could I have done that without knowing the subject pretty well.

If you have enough mathematical sophistication, learning the amount of DE that is sufficient for undergraduate physics is a breeze.
As a math major, I feel the math in undergraduate physics can be learned by a decent math major in one semester.

 

[Jorriss]

As a math major, I feel the math in undergraduate physics can be learned by a decent math major in one semester.

Considering a math major takes all of calculus, linear algebra and differential equations already, I'm sure they could learn much of the remainder in a semester. But that does not mean in one semester the math major would be as apt at using the new math in physics.

 

[R.P.F.]

Considering a math major takes all of calculus, linear algebra and differential equations already, I'm sure they could learn much of the remainder in a semester. But that does not mean in one semester the math major would be as apt at using the new math in physics.

what do you mean by 'new math in physics'? Do you mean using math in a physical context?

What I was trying to say was once you learned the hard stuff, it is very easy to come back and pick up the easier stuff you missed. I never took DEs, but I never had a problem with Euler-Lagrange or the schrodingers equation. The math was pretty ad hoc and I was able to learn it quickly. At that time I was already taking analysis and algebra. I essentially get annoyed when physics majors kept talking about how weird the Dirac function was, because it is really not that weird if you know that it is a functional, not a function.
But of course mathematical muscles do not guarantee you a good understanding of the physics. I was the top student in my quantum class but there is this physics major who had great physical intuition that I could never have.

 

[Jorriss]

what do you mean by 'new math in physics'? Do you mean using math in a physical context?

I was just referring to mathematical techniques not covered in an intro calculus/diffeq/LA course. Could be calculus of variations, complex analysis, greens functions, integral transforms, whatever.

Anyways, I'd respond to the rest of your post but I don't want to derail this thread =/

 

[Vanadium 50]

If you want to go to grad school, it's not a good idea to be skipping classes. While I am sure there were people who learned differential equations "on the street", I wouldn't want to try and deal with filling the gaps in my mathematics at the same time I was learning the physics. Considering there are filler courses in there anyway, I'd add Math 250B and drop one of them.

Fundamentally the problem is that by the end of Term 5, you are roughly at the stage of a typical sophomore in June. It's possible that you can complete the degree in one more year, but not zero more years. And since you want to go to grad school, you can't easily decide not to take certain classes.

 

[MrsNemisis]

If you want to go to grad school, it's not a good idea to be skipping classes. While I am sure there were people who learned differential equations "on the street", I wouldn't want to try and deal with filling the gaps in my mathematics at the same time I was learning the physics. Considering there are filler courses in there anyway, I'd add Math 250B and drop one of them.

Fundamentally the problem is that by the end of Term 5, you are roughly at the stage of a typical sophomore in June. It's possible that you can complete the degree in one more year, but not zero more years. And since you want to go to grad school, you can't easily decide not to take certain classes.

I'll definitely consider Math 250B over one of the language courses once the time comes.

I wish I'd started taking more math and physics classes in community college, but I basically just took whatever my dad told me I should, which was primarily English and communications. The only upside is that I have all of my lower division general ed out of the way.

 

[Jorriss]

I'll definitely consider Math 250B over one of the language courses once the time comes.

I wish I'd started taking more math and physics classes in community college, but I basically just took whatever my dad told me I should, which was primarily English and communications. The only upside is that I have all of my lower division general ed out of the way.

Maybe I missed this but why does your dad want you to be taking english courses so badly?

 

[MrsNemisis]

Maybe I missed this but why does your dad want you to be taking english courses so badly?

I've always enjoyed creative writing, so he just assumes that a career in English is the best decision for me, but I hate all the literature involved (I'm a fan of genre fiction like sci-fi and urban fantasy).

 

[Angry Citizen]

New advice: Run far, far away from anything your dad tells you to do, academically speaking. Careers in English are even rarer than careers in physics.

 

[MrsNemisis]

I had another discussion with my dad about it and he explained that he just wants me to get in and out with a bachelor's degree as quickly as possible because he doesn't think that the subject your bachelor's degree is in matters. I can see why he thinks this, because his BA is in Linguistics, his MA is in Education, and he teaches high school computers. For me, though, I want to pursue a PhD in physics, which is impossible without doing my undergrad in physics or a closely related field.

 

[GregJ]

...I want to pursue a PhD in physics, which is impossible without doing my undergrad in physics or a closely related field.

Did you mention this fact to him? If so, what was his reply?

In my experience, people who go to university studying a subject that they do not wish to study usually drop out before finishing or change subject (at a far greater end cost than if they started on a course that they wanted).

 

[MrsNemisis]

Did you mention this fact to him? If so, what was his reply?

In my experience, people who go to university studying a subject that they do not wish to study usually drop out before finishing or change subject (at a far greater end cost than if they started on a course that they wanted).

I told him, but he just keeps saying that he doesn't thing physics is "my thing" and that I should just give it up and do something else =(

 

[xdrgnh]

Well how about go to college anyway and if you are excelling in then he might change his mind. 5 semester is a long time. His mind can change by then.

 

[MrsNemisis]

Well how about go to college anyway and if you are excelling in then he might change his mind. 5 semester is a long time. His mind can change by then.

The problem with that is that he pays every time I register, so he sees the classes I pick before I have the opportunity to get good grades in them.

 

[deRham]

This is tough. I think you'll have to spend extra time getting physics background up to snuff if you're going to succeed in graduate school.

If your dad just wants you to get a degree by 5 semesters, sign up for an easy major - the easiest you can, perhaps, and see if you can persuade him to minor in physics or so, and study physics in all the time you aren't working to pass your major's classes (which should be quite easy, and not suck your time hopefully). You should be earning A's in physics and math classes in all likelihood if a physics PhD is what you want, but a mixture of many A's and a few B's should be OK.

You probably won't be done at the end of 5 terms, might need to wait a year or two before applying to graduate programs, perhaps take some physics courses as non-degree-seeking-student, and get letters from the professors you learn from.

It's crucial to get past the stage of earning B's in math classes though. You have to be very, very solid on your fundamentals if you're going to hope to contribute to research.

Given that you are 18, I think you have a lot of time before I'd consider you getting too old. Even if you continued studying physics for 4 more years, you'd still be only 22 by the time you'd attend graduate school, and even at a slow pace, a lot can happen in 4 years.

 

[marly]

Like others have mentioned I think you should drop your foreign language classes and concentrate on your math/physics studies.

When I started reading the beginning of your thread I wondered why your Dad was pushing you in a different direction than physics. Later in the thread you said that he said physics isn’t “your thing”. My question, is it your thing?

I don’t want to discourage you, but is physics your passion? What I mean by this is, when you were taking your College Algebra class were you fascinated with the math you were being taught? Did you sit outside of class studying math topics on your own and trying to learn more?

I’ll use myself as an example. I barely finished High School and I got my HS diploma even though I barely passed my HS Algebra class. While I have no proof, I think my Math teacher gave me a passing grade in it just because she felt sorry for me and wanted me to get my HS diploma. Once I finished HS I didn’t start college until 13 years later.

When I tested for my math at my college they put me in the remedial math courses. My first semester was basically 2 + 2 = 4, fractions, etc. Then I moved up each step for each semester. I don’t consider myself some super smart person, but I got an A in College Algebra, an A in Pre-Calculus, and an A in Calculus (Calculus II for me next fall).

When I was taking my math/physics classes what made get through them was my passion. I would sit two hours every night seven days a week working math problems. I worked math problems until my hand hurt. I would sit in meetings and instead of doodling I would work math problems that I took with me. My College Algebra professor mentioned Euler and I started reading everything I could about Euler (and others). I would spend hours and hours on my math studies. When I was between semesters I would take online math courses to try and get ahead. I took the MIT OpenCourseWare Single Variable Calculus (18.01) class. I bought the textbook and the study guide. I watched every video and I worked every problem. Then I took the calculus class at my college for credit and I got an A. I worked just as hard in my physics classes too and I was able to pull an A out of them as well. – Don’t be fooled, I studied for hours to get those grades.

So my question is this: do you love math and physics that much? Do you love it enough to study for hours every night? Do you love it so much that you want to get an A in all your math and physics classes?

You don’t have to sleep, eat, and breathe math/physics classes, but you should at least love them enough to the point where even if you aren’t any good at them (like me), you can still get an A simply based on the passion of learning more.

If you haven’t expressed any passion for math or physics in the past, then your Dad might be confused about the sudden shift from English to Physics. (It’s a pretty big shift). If you do love math/physics that much, then prove it! To hell with your Dad and get your PhD in Physics. It’s going to be a lot of work, but if you have the passion, you can do it.

 

[MrsNemisis]

I think that I do have a lot of the passion, but I've been shoved toward English my entire life because that's what my grandma is into, and because my dad doesn't think that I'm very intelligent and he thinks that English is an easy degree that is more at the level he perceives me to be at than Physics. Naturally, I would have to disagree.

A little background for the one class I've ever failed in my entire education: When I took College Algebra the first time, it was my second semester as a full time college student (I took one class each semester of my sophomore year of high school before testing out and going to college full time). I was also taking American Politics, Composition and Critical Thinking, Abnormal Psychology, Contemporary Topics in Biology, and Physical Geology along with the lab course that went with it. This added up to 19 units. I was 16 years old. It was a bit much for me at the time, and I really dropped the ball with math.

It isn't that I don't like math; quite to the contrary, other than that first time I took College Algebra, I'd always been pretty good at it and enjoyed it, too. My dad was understandably pretty upset over that math grade, and he yelled at me for a LONG TIME afterwards, and still hasn't dropped it years later, and a lot of the things he said to me and continues to say discouraged me up until a few months ago when a friend in my Japanese class asked me for some help studying for a math test he had coming up, and I realized that, before my family had convinced me that I would never be any good at math, I had really enjoyed it, and I also really enjoyed helping the friend study.

That experience has encouraged me to give math another try without taking into account how bad at it my dad thinks I am, and I think that if I put my heart into it, I'll do really well :)

 

[ParticleGrl]

How is that possible..? I can't even imagine trying to do physics without a firm knowledge of differential equations. Its usefulness is beyond contestation. I sat an exam last semester, and I came across a spring problem. I couldn't remember the formulas, so I re-derived them from the differential equations. No way could I have done that without knowing the subject pretty well.

Its useful, but the thing is by the time you can take a diff eq course (at least where I did undergrad, and many others I talked to) you had been solving diff eqs in physics classes for so long that you knew the parts of diff-eq that were useful very well. We had been solving the Schreodinger equation and Maxwell's equations and studying the solutions for many semesters before I took a formal class in differential equations. I learned names for techniques I was already using (we factored operators like you do for a characteristic equation solving the quantum simple harmonic oscillator, series solution came up for the hydrogen atom, as did spherical harmonics, etc). The techniques I learned in diff eq that I hadn't used previously in a physics class haven't really come up again. I can't remember using a Wronskian in anywhere outside my diff-eq class in college.

If you are limited in time, the thing to do is take the physics courses, and just enough math to get by. The math techniques you need for physics will show up time and time again in the physics classes. Diff eq can be useful, but if you have to make cuts, cut math.

 

[MrsNemisis]

Thanks for all the replies! My dad said that if I take two semesters of the Liberal Studies major with a few lower-division physics classes thrown in and I still want to do physics afterwards then he'll reconsider, but I don't know if it's worth throwing away a year. That leaves me with three semesters to pay off on my own, and I'd really like to avoid student loans until grad school :(

 

[Jorriss]

and I'd really like to avoid student loans until grad school :(

The benefit of graduate school in physics - it's a job too, they pay you to go!

 

[MrsNemisis]

The benefit of graduate school in physics - it's a job too, they pay you to go!

Wow, that's like the icing on the cake :)