Phase shift oscillator and circuit

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the performance of a phase shift oscillator circuit using a TL072 op-amp, focusing on the observed frequency discrepancies in simulations compared to expected values. Participants explore the implications of various parameters such as slew rate, simulation time, and circuit configuration on the oscillator's output frequency and waveform characteristics.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the frequency of oscillation observed in simulations is significantly lower than expected, with values around 22 Hz reported compared to a calculated frequency of 65 kHz.
  • There is a discussion on how the slew rate of the op-amp may affect both the frequency and the waveform shape, with some arguing that it introduces a negative phase shift.
  • Participants question the impact of simulation parameters, such as time resolution and end time, on the accuracy of the frequency output.
  • One participant suggests that a better waveform can be achieved by modifying the feedback resistor configuration and adding diodes.
  • There are inquiries about the expected DC output value and the peak-to-peak amplitude of the oscillations, indicating uncertainty about the circuit's performance.
  • Some participants express confusion over the relationship between simulation settings and the resulting frequency, with differing opinions on the necessity of certain parameters.
  • A later reply emphasizes the importance of using appropriate simulation times and resolutions to avoid inaccuracies in frequency measurement.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the reasons for the frequency discrepancies, with multiple competing views on the effects of simulation parameters, circuit design, and op-amp characteristics remaining unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings of the op-amp's phase shift characteristics at different frequencies, the effects of simulation settings on output, and the accuracy of PSpice in representing the circuit behavior.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in circuit simulation, phase shift oscillators, and the practical application of op-amps in electronic designs may find this discussion relevant.

suv79
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Homework Statement


upload_2016-2-13_18-16-57.png

upload_2016-2-13_18-17-20.png

Gain & phase response of TL072 op-amp
upload_2016-2-13_18-19-1.png


Homework Equations


'Frequency of oscillation was observed to be about 15 % lower'[/B]
Why ?

The Attempt at a Solution


upload_2016-2-13_18-24-39.png

so at this frequency the op-amp has 45 phase shift, but why will this impact the oscillator and lower the frequency.

PSpice simulation
upload_2016-2-13_18-32-10.png

analysis
upload_2016-2-13_18-33-34.png

why is my frequency 22 Hz
 
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how can i find an 'ideal op-amp' in PSpice ?
 
An ideal opamp model in PSpice is simply called up with "OPAMP".
Regarding your result - I suppose the critical parameter is the limited slew rate which drastically lowers the frequency (and causes a triangle form).
 
but would the slew rate effect the frequency or only distort the waveform,
the phase shift oscillator should producesa sine wave output.
 
suv79 said:
but would the slew rate effect the frequency or only distort the waveform,
the phase shift oscillator should producesa sine wave output.
Yes - the slew rate SR lowers the frequency because SR causes in addition a negative phase shift (delay corresponds with phase shift).
 
65 kHz is my worked out frequency but PSpice is 22 Hz
 
I have simulated your circuit - and the result is at 55 kHz.
What are the time steps you have chosen?
My choice: End of simulation 1ms and resolution 1µs.
Why such a large simulation time for 55 kHz(1s)?

Comment: A much better waveform can be achieved if you split the feedback resistor in two (33k=23k +10k) and connect two diodes (antiparallel) across the 10k resistor.
 
Last edited:
you got 55 kHz that is what it should be about 15% lower.
 
upload_2016-2-14_17-36-57.png

i think something is wrong with this iam still getting 22 Hz
 
  • #10
i have to write a report about why the circuit is 15% lower from designed frequency, when the TL072 op-amp was used.

have simulated your circuit - and the result is at 55 kHz.
What are the time steps you have chosen?
My choice: End of simulation 1ms and resolution 1µs.
Why such a large simulation time for 55 kHz(1s)?

Comment: A much better waveform can be achieved if you split the feedback resistor in two (33k=23k +10k) and connect two diodes (antiparallel) across the 10k resistor.

did you use PSpice to simulated the circuit? can you see any differences between your circuit and my one ?
 
  • #11
could you email me your simulated circuit ?
 
  • #12
suv79 said:
could you email me your simulated circuit ?

I have simulated exactly your circuit using a realistic model for TL072.
Why didn`t you answer my question regarding simulation time amd time resolution??
 
Last edited:
  • #13
the time i used was 1 Second
upload_2016-2-14_21-4-47.png

but time resolution i have no idea.
upload_2016-2-14_21-5-42.png
 
  • #14
the run time should not change the frequency
 
  • #15
suv79 said:
the run time should not change the frequency
OK - if you know better I have no problems.
It seems you are very familiar with simulation programs.

I have again removed my explanation for the frequency variation in my answer#12.
I see no necessity to give you hints if you know better.
 
  • #16
but i don't understand what is wrong with my circuit, why is it not getting 55 kHz
 
  • #17
i have chanced the run time to 1m the freq is now 21 kHz
upload_2016-2-14_21-35-13.png

but where can i change time resolution ?
 
  • #18
What is the DC value of your circuit's output, and what value were you expecting it to be?

What pk-pk amplitude are the oscillations you are seeing?
 
  • #19
i have no idea how to work out the amplitude of the waveform
 
  • #20
upload_2016-2-15_14-55-14.png

why when the stop time is change dose it effect the frequency.
 
  • #21
upload_2016-2-15_14-58-48.png

red is 50 u
green is 100u
blue is 200u
 

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  • #22
I can't help because I don't use (or know about) Pspice (For a simple cct like this, I'd just build it!)

But going back to your first post, why do you say that the phase shift of the op amp is 45o at 55kHz? AFAI can see, it would still be close to 90o. It would appear to be 45o around 12Hz (and maybe 50MHz.) (Both taken from your graph - not checked by me.)

Looking at your Pspice output from an innocent perspective I wonder;
why your output amplitude is so small?
whether you would be able to see 50-60kHz oscillations?
what the waveform you are seeing really is?
what sort of mathematical accuracy Pspice is capable of? Does it give "digital noise" like rounding errors?

If I were you I'd listen to people like LvW, who know about this stuff.
 
  • #23
suv79 said:
why when the stop time is change dose it effect the frequency.

In my post#7 I gave you my simulation data (PSpice) with the result of app. 55kHz (clean sinewave).
I cannot understand why you didn`t try the same end time (1ms) and resolutiuon (1µs).

Are you aware that for an end time of 1s you expect to see on the screen 55000 oscillations? Does this make sense?
More than that, you should know that the simulator automatically selects a resolution (a certain percentage of the end time) which in many cases (as in yours) is bad because you had specified an end time which is much too large (1s).

That is the reason you see no sine wave - and the frequency is incorrect (too small).
Therefore you must override this automatic and specify a maximum time step as I did for my simulation.(1µs).
It should be possible for you to find out how you can command such an upper limit for the time step.

Furthermore, for a quick and save start of oscillations it is to be recommended to give one of the capacitors an "initial voltage".
Otherwise it takes a long time to see oscillations (if any).

EDIT: Which simulator are you using? Try ".print step" or "advanced options" for specifying the maximum time step.
 
  • #24
resolutiuon= .PRINT step ?
upload_2016-2-15_15-54-54.png

upload_2016-2-15_15-57-39.png
 
  • #25
i used, real time noise, which should help start the oscillation
upload_2016-2-15_16-5-42.png
 
  • #26
upload_2016-2-15_16-13-9.png

ok with the initial voltage on the capacitors this is much better :)

thank you LvW
sorry iam a bit slow
 

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  • #27
OK - I hope you have learned now how to simulater an oscillator:
* Use a simulation time of app. 20-50 periods (maximum)
* Use a resolution (time step) of app 1/1000 of the max. simulation time
* Provide a starting aid by using an initial voltage for a capacitor.
* For a better waveform (low distortions, lowTHD) use a smooth amplitude limiting device (diodes, for example).
 

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