Pilot wave theory, fundamental forces

msumm
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I read a short high-level article about the pilot wave interpretation of quantum mechanics and I have some questions.

Is there a good way to formulate that theory so that the only force on a particle is from the pilot wave (inertia, gravity, EM, ... move/effect the wave which in turn effects the particle)? Seems like people would have tried this, but I can't find anything when searching the web.

Also, the article claimed that pilot wave theory provides new, testable predictions. Where I can find more information about that?
 
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msumm said:
Is there a good way to formulate that theory so that the only force on a particle is from the pilot wave (inertia, gravity, EM, ... move/effect the wave which in turn effects the particle)? Seems like people would have tried this, but I can't find anything when searching the web.
According to the pilot wave theory, the only force on a particle is from the pilot wave. It is quite obvious from most treatments of the theory, but I don't know any reference in which this point is particularly emphasized.

msumm said:
Also, the article claimed that pilot wave theory provides new, testable predictions. Where I can find more information about that?
It would help if you could specify which article are you talking about.
 
Demystifier said:
According to the pilot wave theory, the only force on a particle is from the pilot wave. It is quite obvious from most treatments of the theory, but I don't know any reference in which this point is particularly emphasized.

Hi Demystifier,

But surely when you analyze the force equations there is a -\nabla V term as well as the quantum force term -\nabla Q (where V and Q are the respectively the classical and quantum potentials). This implies that the particles attract/repel each other as well as being pushed around by the pilot-wave, no?

Zenith
 
Regarding question 1: As Zenith said, that article seemed to imply that gravity, ... act on the particle (mathematically through a potential V). Demystifier, do you know where I can look to find the formulations in which the only force on the particle is the pilot wave?

Regarding question 2: The article was by Mike Towler at Cambridge University, but I can't find the link now. However, I don't know if that's relevant -- the article just mentioned (in a bullet) that pilot wave theory provides new, testable predictions, but it did not say what they were. I would like a reference to find out what they are.

Thanks
 
msumm said:
Regarding question 2: The article was by Mike Towler at Cambridge University, but I can't find the link now.

I've referred to the article that I think you mean in recent threads. You can find it at :

http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/PWT/towler_pilot_waves.pdf"

He also has a full on-line graduate course in pilot-wave theory at:

http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html"

However, I don't know if that's relevant -- the article just mentioned (in a bullet) that pilot wave theory provides new, testable predictions, but it did not say what they were. I would like a reference to find out what they are.

If you look in the sidebar link "Further Reading" in Towler's course there are links to hundreds of relevant papers. As regards testable predictions, presumably he means Valentini's non-equilibrium stuff leading to observable consequences in the cosmic microwave background etc. (though there are some other more flaky ones such as detecting possible violations of Pauli's exclusion principle, and/or using "lasers" - mounted on the head of a shark? - to detect whether particles held in traps are absolutely at rest in violation of Heisenberg uncertainty principle).

Looking at Towler's list you might read Valentini's recent "Beyond the quantum" article in Physics World, or the following three articles:

Inflationary cosmology as a probe of primordial quantum mechanics A. Valentini (2008).
De Broglie-Bohm prediction of quantum violations for cosmological super-Hubble modes, A. Valentini (2008).
Astrophysical and cosmological tests of quantum theory, A. Valentini (2007).

For the laser stuff, see the book "Quantum Cauasality" by Rigg.
 
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Great, thanks for the info Zenith.

Also, if the above refs don't include a formulation in which the only force on a particle is the pilot wave, I would still like to know if anyone knows of a ref for that.
 
zenith8 said:
Hi Demystifier,

But surely when you analyze the force equations there is a -\nabla V term as well as the quantum force term -\nabla Q (where V and Q are the respectively the classical and quantum potentials). This implies that the particles attract/repel each other as well as being pushed around by the pilot-wave, no?
That is certainly true. However, when I think about the pilot wave theory, I like to think of the wave function, and not of the quantum potential, as the fundamental quantity. The wave function guides the particle and the wave function by itself does not distinguish between classical and quantum force. All "force" is described by the wave function. (See however my next post which clarifies it more carefully.)
 
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msumm said:
Demystifier, do you know where I can look to find the formulations in which the only force on the particle is the pilot wave?
ANY paper on pilot wave theory describes how the motion of the particle is described only by the pilot wave (and the initial position of the particle). However, it is actually incorrect to say that the pilot wave determines the force. Namely, by definition a force is a quantity that determines acceleration, while the pilot wave determines the velocity. The initial velocity is not arbitrary in pilot wave theory, which is why it is somewhat misleading to formulate pilot wave theory in terms of forces and quantum potentials. The quantum potential is useful only to demonstrate similarity between classical mechanics and pilot wave mechanics, but the quantum potential does not have a fundamental role in pilot wave theory.

See also Section 4 in
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/0912.2666
 
Demystifier said:
The quantum potential is useful only to demonstrate similarity between classical mechanics and pilot wave mechanics, but the quantum potential does not have a fundamental role in pilot wave theory.

I see your point, but perhaps it's slightly misleading to present this as the settled view of the pilot-wave community. I know that the Goldstein group that you link to present it in this way, but many others (e.g. Peter Holland, Basil Hiley, and Peter Rigg, to name three authors of pilot-wave textbooks) argue quite vehemently the opposite position. This is particularly the case if one argues that the wave field is a repository of energy, along the lines I did in https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2369492#post2369492".

Holland and Hiley in particular have some serious-sounding arguments in their recent papers - which I could look up if I could be bothered - in which they claim to prove that the quantum potential is fundamental.

For the moment let's just say we don't know who's right - so I don't think it's true to say definitively, as you do, that the quantum potential does not have a fundamental role.
 
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  • #10
zenith8 said:
Holland and Hiley in particular have some serious-sounding arguments in their recent papers - which I could look up if I could be bothered - in which they claim that the quantum potential is fundamental.
I would like to see these papers if you know the exact references.

Anyway, what is your opinion? What is more fundamental, wave function or quantum potential?
 
  • #11
Demystifier said:
I would like to see these papers if you know the exact references.

Ditto.

Demystifier said:
Anyway, what is your opinion? What is more fundamental, wave function or quantum potential?

I'd like to chime in on this question.

It is known that the wavefunction and its corresponding Schroedinger equation imply the quantum potential (via the Madelung equations obtained from the polar decomposition of the Schroedinger equation), but that the converse is not true without an additional, ad-hoc constraint on the "phase function" (or "velocity potential" in hydrodynamics language), S(x,t), which couples to the probability density via the quantum potential. This additional constraint on S(x,t) turns out to be equivalent to the Bohr-Sommerfeld-Wilsion (BSW) quantization constraint, or, equivalently, the constraint that the derived wavefunctions encoding S(x,t) be single-valued. Without this ad-hoc constraint, there will be non-quantum solutions to the Madelung equations that do not corresponding to any single-valued wavefunction satisfying the Schroedinger equation. What this then implies is that the addition of the quantum potential to the otherwise classical Hamilton-Jacobi fluid equations, (which is essentially what the Madelung equations are), is not sufficient to establish a hydrodynamics that is equivalently expressible as the Schroedinger dynamics of a single-valued wavefunction. On the other hand, the single-valued wavefunction of QM and its dynamical equation (the Schroedinger equation) do contain all the physical information of the quantum potential, in addition to other essential physical information (the BSW quantization constraint), so as to allow for an equivalent reformulation via the hydrodynamic Madelung equations. Based on this established relation between the Schroedinger equation and Madelung equations, I think one is forced to conclude that the wavefunction is more fundamental than the quantum potential.

As an historical aside, the inequivalence between the Schroedinger equation and the Madelung equations was actually discovered twice in different (but related) contexts; the first time was by Takehiko Takabayasi in 1952, who showed that Madelung's hydrodynamic equations are not equivalent to Schroedinger's equation without the (in his own words) "ad-hoc" BSW quantization constraint on the velocity potential S(x,t) in Madelung's equations. Takabayasi also tried to argue that Bohm's 1952 causal interpretation of QM, which made use of Madelung's equations, was also inequivalent to QM, but this turned out to be wrong as we now know. The second time was by Timothy Wallstrom in 1988, in the context of stochastic mechanical derivations of the Schroedinger equation. Wallstrom showed that even though stochastic mechanical theories such as Edward Nelson's can derive the Madelung equations (and, consequently, the quantum potential), they do not derive the Schroedinger dynamics for a single-valued wavefunction without also imposing the ad-hoc BSW constraint on the velocity potential S(x,t) in the stochastic mechanical equations of motion. You can read more about all this in Wallstrom's concise 1994 paper:

Inequivalence between the Schrödinger equation and the Madelung hydrodynamic equations
Phys. Rev. A 49, 1613–1617
http://pra.aps.org/abstract/PRA/v49/i3/p1613_1

In my opinion, if one could find a dynamical justification for the BSW quantization constraint from the dynamics of the particles in stochastic mechanical theories, then one could reasonably claim that the quantum potential is more fundamental than the wavefunction in the context of such theories. In fact, if stochastic mechanical theories could successfully derive the Schroedinger equation, then even the deterministic pilot-wave theories would be "coarse-grained" approximations to the stochastic mechanical theories, and it would only appear on the coarse-grained level that the dynamics of the pilot-wave (wavefunction) and particles are Aristotelian. Moreover, the wavefunction would have to then be interpreted as an epistemic mathematical construct, rather than an ontic field. The quantum potential, on the other hand, would still be interpreted as an ontic potential energy field. So the success or failure of stochastic mechanical derivations of the Schroedinger equation clearly has direct and significant implications for your (Demystifier's) question.
 
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  • #12
Demystifier said:
zenith8 said:
Holland and Hiley in particular have some serious-sounding arguments in their recent papers - which I could look up if I could be bothered - in which they claim that the quantum potential is fundamental.
I would like to see these papers if you know the exact references.


Hi Demystifier,

Sorry for the slight delay. I was out of town for a few days and the thread slipped off the bottom of the page..

Just based on a quick search in "Further Reading" on http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html" , the following papers indicate what I mean (links on the page):

Schroedinger revisited: an algebraic approach, M.R. Brown and B.J. Hiley (2004).
See p. 9, paragraph 4

From the Heisenberg picture to Bohm, B. Hiley (2002)
Section 3, p. 7 onwards

Hamiltonian theory of wave and particle in quantum mechanics I: Liouville's theorem and the interpretation of de Broglie-Bohm theory, P.R. Holland (2001).
Section 1.2, p.6 "The role of the quantum potential"

Plus see the book by Rigg in the Textbook section at the top.
 
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  • #13
zenith8 said:
Hi Demystifier,

Sorry for the slight delay. I was out of town for a few days and the thread slipped off the bottom of the page..

Just based on a quick search in "Further Reading" on http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html" , the following papers indicate what I mean (links on the page):

Schroedinger revisited: an algebraic approach, M.R. Brown and B.J. Hiley (2004).
See p. 9, paragraph 4

From the Heisenberg picture to Bohm, B. Hiley (2002)
Section 3, p. 7 onwards

Hamiltonian theory of wave and particle in quantum mechanics I: Liouville's theorem and the interpretation of de Broglie-Bohm theory, P.R. Holland (2001).
Section 1.2, p.6 "The role of the quantum potential"

Plus see the book by Rigg in the Textbook section at the top.

On my behalf, thanks for these refs, Zenith.

By the way, not to be pushy, but are either of you (Zenith and Demystifier) interested at all in discussing the question (about the fundamentality of the wavefunction vs quantum potential) that I suggested an answer to? I was really expecting that it would be discussed.
 
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  • #14
Zenith, thanks for the references.

Maaneli, #11 was a great post. I mostly agree with it.
 
  • #15
Demystifier said:
Zenith, thanks for the references.

Maaneli, #11 was a great post. I mostly agree with it.

Thanks. Out of curiosity, which parts do you disagree with?
 
  • #17
Demystifier said:
Well, I think it is not completely clear whether the Walstrom argument is correct or not. See Sec. IV of
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0609109

Ah, I've studied that paper recently, and I found several problems with Smolin's arguments. First, his arguments are only applied to the artificial and trivial case of the Schroedinger equation on a circle, whereas the arguments of Takabayasi and Wallstrom apply to the Schroedinger equation in 2 dimensions or greater. And for even just 2 dimensions, Smolin's claim of a well defined mapping between solutions of the Nelson equations and solutions of the Schroedinger equation, is problematic. For example, Valentini and Bacciagaluppi have pointed out that for just one node in a 2 dimensional wavefunction, moving the line across which psi is discontinuous will in general produce a different wavefunction, so that the mapping between solutions of the Schroedinger and Nelson equations is not well defined; and for the case of more than one node, the mapping seems even more ill-defined.

Additionally, Valentini and Bacciagaluppi pointed out that even for the case of the circle, it is problematic to allow discontinuous wavefunctions to be physical wavefunctions, since, as is well known, discontinuous wavefunctions can have divergent values of observables such as the variance of the total energy, the mean kinetic energy, etc.. This is why physical wavefunctions are required to be continuous, or more precisely, that their first derivatives be square-integrable, so that the wavefunctions form a Sobolev space. Smolin does not address this point, aside from a brief comment on page 9 where he asserts that the expectation value of the Nelsonian energy is well defined. But even if so (and he doesn't explicitly show this for the general case), how is this to be reconciled with the fact that the standard definitions of operator expectation values (using the derived discontinuous wavefunctions) are divergent for the aforementioned observables? And if Smolin is going to use the Nelsonian definition of energy expectation values, instead of the standard quantum mechanical definitions, how can he claim that Nelson's theory derives standard quantum mechanics? Smolin does not address any of these inconsistencies.

Lastly, Wallstrom explicitly showed in his 1994 paper that if one allows S(x,t) to be arbitrarily multi-valued in Nelson's equations (so that the derived wavefunctions are arbitrarily multi-valued, as Smolin wants to allow), then this leads to non-quantized values of angular momentum for the case of a 2-dimensional central force problem. In other words, Nelson's stochastic mechanics would not be empirically equivalent to standard quantum mechanics, because it would predict non-quantum values of angular momentum for a well established quantum mechanical situation.
 
  • #18
Thanks Maaneli. Are you talking about the book by Valentini and Bacciagaluppi, or about another reference I am not aware of?
 
  • #19
Demystifier said:
Thanks Maaneli. Are you talking about the book by Valentini and Bacciagaluppi, or about another reference I am not aware of?

Not the book, private communications. But Valentini did tell me that he plans to publish these criticisms in his next book.
 
  • #21
Demystifier said:
I see.

By the way, in August there will be a workshop on de Broglie-Bohm theory, for the case you are interested:
http://www.vallico.net/tti/tti.html

:smile:

I know. I'm one of the invited speakers. See the list of invitees.
 
  • #22
Maaneli said:
I know. I'm one of the invited speakers. See the list of invitees.

Not fair. No-one invited me. Even after I blew one of the organizers in the stationery cupboard after I saw him give a lecture.

And whenever Dr. Chinese tells people who to ask about pilot-wave theory, he always says, "search for posts by Demystifier". Don't know why I bother.

Feeling neglected. Sulk. :smile:
 
  • #23
zenith8 said:
Even after I blew one of the organizers in the stationery cupboard after I saw him give a lecture.

:smile: Are you serious by any chance?
 
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  • #24
Maaneli said:
:smile: Are you serious by any chance?

As far as I know, I'm the only female in the entire world interested in quantum foundations. There are at least fifty men and no women on the list of invitees at the de Broglie-Bohm conference. Obviously even my extreme measures didn't help..
 
  • #25
zenith8 said:
As far as I know, I'm the only female in the entire world interested in quantum foundations. There are at least fifty men and no women on the list of invitees at the de Broglie-Bohm conference. Obviously even my extreme measures didn't help..

There are a few other women interested in quantum foundations. Off the top of my head, Vishniya Maudlin, Hilary Greaves, Doreen Fraser, Jenann Ismael, and Ruth Kastner. But none of them (with the exception of Vishniya) are especially interested in pilot-wave theory. And Vishniya is likely to come anyway with her husband, Tim Maudlin.
 
  • #26
Maaneli said:
There are a few other women interested in quantum foundations. Off the top of my head, Vishniya Maudlin, Hilary Greaves, Doreen Fraser, Jenann Ismael, and Ruth Kastner. But none of them (with the exception of Vishniya) are especially interested in pilot-wave theory. And Vishniya is likely to come anyway with her husband, Tim Maudlin.

So you've got to marry one of them? Jesus, I thought 5 minutes in a cupboard would be enough.
 
  • #27
zenith8 said:
Not fair. No-one invited me. Even after I blew one of the organizers in the stationery cupboard after I saw him give a lecture.

And whenever Dr. Chinese tells people who to ask about pilot-wave theory, he always says, "search for posts by Demystifier". Don't know why I bother.

Feeling neglected. Sulk. :smile:
I think it helps when you have a lot of published papers in peer reviewed journals, because then people take you more seriously. Even if more published papers does not make you more clever.

Anyway, if you are not invited it does not mean that you cannot come. Personally, I would like to meet you there.
 
  • #28
Demystifier said:
Personally, I would like to meet you there.

I concur. At the very least, you could make the workshop more entertaining. :wink:

That wink is for Zenith, just to be clear.
 
  • #29
Maaneli, do you know what will you talk about there?
 
  • #30
Demystifier said:
Maaneli, do you know what will you talk about there?

Yes, I plan on giving a talk on the current paper I'm writing, in which I propose a solution to "the quantization problem" (I use this phrase to refer to the criticisms by Takabayasi and Wallstrom) of stochastic mechanics, by deriving the otherwise postulated current velocity expression from the classical Zittebewegung particle models of either de Broglie (for the spinless case) or Barut-Zanghi (for the spin-1/2 case), since both models already imply the Bohr-Sommerfeld-Wilson quantization condition as a direct consequence of their dynamics, and both models can be incorporated into Nelsonian diffusion processes. I'll then discuss the implications of stochastic mechanical derivations of quantum theory for the physical interpretation of the configuration space wavefunction (in particular, that it should no longer be regarded as an ontological field or 'causal agent'), and the particle dynamics in deBB theory (in particular, that the deterministic guiding equation becomes an average of the mean forward and backward drift velocities, and the Aristotelian symmetry of the deBB particle dynamics becomes an approximation). And if time permits, I'll then speculate on the deeper theory suggested by stochastic mechanics itself, and the open research problems to work on towards that deeper theory.

I may also give a second talk, if I'm allowed. I'm thinking the second talk to be on the relation between nonlocality and time-symmetry in stochastic mechanics. More precisely, how the emergence of the nonlocal, nonseparable, wavefunction on configuration space is directly related to the time-symmetrization conditions impose on the diffusion processes in stochastic mechanical theories. To illustrate this, I would use the examples of Nelson's formulation, and Garnet Ord's entwined-path models.

How 'bout you?
 
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  • #32
Will there be a transcript of these talks made available online? Since my last little "tussle" regarding dBB I've felt the need to broaden my horizons and learn more about it. I'm still not buying it, but then, I find it somewhat hard to accept TCI as well.

@Zenith: Come now, the Salahis made it into the damned White House, just walk on stage and start talking. ;)
 
  • #33
Frame Dragger said:
I'm still not buying it
What would you emphasize as your main problem(s) with it?
 
  • #34
Demystifier said:
What would you emphasize as your main problem(s) with it?

Hmmm... Right now I don't know that I feel comfortable in my knowledge of dBB, and I'm a skeptical logical positivist with a phenomonological bent. My respect for dBB grows as I research it, but it still seems... arbitrary. I appreciate how much more... sense... it makes that wavefunction collapse, and it's much more appealing than, "shut up and calculate!".

Specifically however, the entire concept of the pilot wave seems terribly convenient. It's impressive that dBB survived Bell's theorem by going non-local when LHV theories died, so I'm not discounting it. I suppose that Zenith was right and in the end I'm more concerned with he utility of the theory than I am with the interpretation. She said, and I agree, that perception shapes thinking. I'm not sure that it matters in this case however. SQM has produced results that have produced further results, even if on its own it is a probabilistic and not necessarily accurate description of nature. Given that, until an Interpretation becomes necessary to explain events AND make progress, it seems that anyone is free to posit a view re QM.

Now, here is where I abondon all pretense of formality and tell you my final issue with the Pilot Wave theory. The Pilot Wave seems like the deterministic hand of god, vs the natural unpredictablity and unexplained depths of TCI. I don't know that anything beyond preference matters at this point, and given that I am leery of the seemingly intuitive theory (dBB).
 
  • #36
Demystifier said:
Concerning the arbitrariness, perhaps this thread
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=252491
might convince you that it is not so arbitrary as it looks at first sight.

That is fascinating, and is part of dBB's ability to outlive virtually every respectable theory. However, between the highly reductionist TCI, and dBB... TCI seems more in line with LESS "added" elements. Non-Local HV's, a purely theoretical pilot wave... it all makes for a theory that keeps up with TCI, but the one argument I haven't seen properly defended is just Occam's Razor. I read one defense of that one linked by Zenith, but while TCI is incredibly WEIRD, it doesn't make as many assumptions to stay deterministic.

I don't believe that TCI is a fully accurate description of quantum behaviour, or how it becomes macroscropic... however, the word of Interpretations is the world of metaphysics. I suppose dBB strikes me as slightly more contrived than TCI, and therefore less useful as a working theory.
 
  • #37
Frame Dragger said:
I suppose dBB strikes me as slightly more contrived than TCI, and therefore less useful as a working theory.

Yeah - TCI is massively useful. For example:

"From these arguments we must conclude that it is meaningless to assign to the free electron a magnetic moment" (c) Bohr, Heisenberg et al. (1928)

People were still telling Hans Dehmelt up to the 1980s to stop trying to measure it because Bohr had 'proved' using the Copenhagen interpretation that it couldn't be done. Today the magnetic moment of the electron is probably the best measured number in the whole of science and Dehmelt has got a very nice prize sitting on his mantelpiece.

Perception shapes thinking.
 
  • #38
zenith8 said:
Yeah - TCI is massively useful. For example:

"From these arguments we must conclude that it is meaningless to assign to the free electron a magnetic moment" (c) Bohr, Heisenberg et al. (1928)

People were still telling Hans Dehmelt up to the 1980s to stop trying to measure it because Bohr had 'proved' using the Copenhagen interpretation that it couldn't be done. Today the magnetic moment of the electron is probably the best measured number in the whole of science and Dehmelt has got a very nice prize sitting on his mantelpiece.

Perception shapes thinking.

True, but utility leads to progress, and as strange and unlikely as TCI is it has lead to progress. Let's face it however, it's issues just such as the ones you cite that have more and more people like me, listening to people like you. Once upon a time I would have had to burn you at the stake! ;)

I think I'll stay on the fence... with a tilt towards TCI. Not for the sake of rhetoric, but they both are so clearly incomplete that I'm happy to examine both ideas and keep them in mind when confronting cardinal issues of apparent QM behaviour.

Edit: To be fair, the magnetic moment of the electron was not a TYPICAL blunder by Bohr, although it was typically Bohr. TCI has a better record of producing results (whatever you attribute that to, teaching/student bias included) although it has its major problems. So does dBB... but dBB is just that little bit more... "complete". At this point, completion in the dBB Interpretation smacks of bias towards a more classicist and deterministc view. Not for everyone, but many. TCI is just... the math without apoligies or meaningful philosphophy... which probably makes it the least metaphysical, and therefore the most valuble.
 
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  • #39
Frame Dragger said:
True, but utility leads to progress, and as strange and unlikely as TCI is it has lead to progress.

You have no evidence whatsoever that more progress wouldn't have been made if people had believed deBB from the start. It's the same mathematics but a clearer conceptual picture, so I rather suspect there would have been.
Frame Dragger said:
Non-Local HV's, a purely theoretical pilot wave... it all makes for a theory that keeps up with TCI, but the one argument I haven't seen properly defended is just Occam's Razor. I read one defense of that one linked by Zenith, but while TCI is incredibly WEIRD, it doesn't make as many assumptions to stay deterministic..

.. I suppose dBB strikes me as slightly more contrived than TCI, and therefore less useful as a working theory.
(1) Occam: Just for the record, deBB adds no math that is not already there - everything follows from one semantic change in the meaning of the word 'probability'. It also eliminates the - to most people uncompelling - postulates about measurement (so it actually has fewer premises..). It gives a completely new interpretation of quantum phenomena in which e.g. probability plays no fundamental role. The descriptive content is identical but the theories are not equivalent at all. There is no basis to apply Occam here.

(2) You can't moan about the theory being non-local unless you yourself can explain entanglement in a better way. And you can't - we already discussed this. In fact, I seem to recall you said 'I believe in nonlocality'.

(3) As for being contrived - OK, let's work this through. For a start, you're confusing Copenhagen with instrumentalism/shut-up-and-calculate.

Let's start with the equations of quantum mechanics (the Schroedinger equation, say). Here are three typical choices:

* Instrumentalism: assume that we can never know what the mathematical objects in the theory represent (or that we don't care) and just look at the probabilities of experimental results. Perfectly reasonable if you just want to build stuff.

* deBB: assume that the mathematical objects in the theory correspond to things that actually exist. This is also perfectly reasonable if you want to build stuff (it's the same maths) but it makes completely clear what is happening in an individual quantum event and hence guides thinking.

* TCI: because we are in thrall to the latest 1920s philosophical fashion which we heard in a Danish pub assume that one of the two mathematical objects in the theory corresponds to something (God knows what?) that exists er.. only when humans look at it, and insist (with no evidence whatsoever) that nature must be fundamentally probabilistic. Allows you to build stuff but makes everyone who studies it utterly confused (witness the hordes of students posting here).

Now, if we asked a panel of independent witnesses to say which of those options is more contrived, what do you think they would say?
Not for everyone, but many. TCI is just... the math without apoligies or meaningful philosphophy... which probably makes it the least metaphysical, and therefore the most valuble.

But who says metaphysics is not useful? Take the guy in the https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=372423" who's going on about the momentum being imaginary in classically-forbidden regions. His whole argument (though he won't have noticed this because he will have been taught that philosophy is pointless) is based on the idea that an actual particle is tunneling through the barrier and that it has an actual momentum given by quantizing the expression 'mv'.

Now of course, if you do assume that particles exist (deBB) then an examination of the Schroedinger current tells you that their momentum is not given by the quantum equivalent of mv but by something else (because of the existence of the quantum force or particles being pushed around by the wave field). So the quantum-mechanical 'momentum' operator only gives the true momentum of a particle in the classical limit i.e. when the wave component is passive. Thus when you 'measure' the momentum in a quantum system, you are not in fact measuring anything at all. This is what people mean by 'contextuality'. So when people make physical arguments about 'the uncertainty in the momentum' they always talk as if they mean the actual uncertainty in the actual momentum of some particle even though, strictly speaking, \Delta p as defined by Heisenberg refers to one component of the stress tensor of the wave field.. (see Peter Holland's deBB textbook). Ho hum.

With hindsight we can now see how impractical, inhibiting ideas came to dominate and distort the entire development of quantum theory. The early quantum physicists attributed to nature a limitation we can now see was simply a deficiency of contemporary thought. [Holland, 1993]
 
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  • #40
zenith8 said:
You have no evidence whatsoever that more progress wouldn't have been made if people had believed deBB from the start. It's the same mathematics but a clearer conceptual picture, so I rather suspect there would have been.



(1) Occam: Just for the record, deBB adds no math that is not already there - everything follows from one semantic change in the meaning of the word 'probability'. It also eliminates the - to most people uncompelling - postulates about measurement (so it actually has fewer premises..). It gives a completely new interpretation of quantum phenomena in which e.g. probability plays no fundamental role. The descriptive content is identical but the theories are not equivalent at all. There is no basis to apply Occam here.

(2) You can't moan about the theory being non-local unless you yourself can explain entanglement in a better way. And you can't - we already discussed this. In fact, I seem to recall you said 'I believe in nonlocality'.

(3) As for being contrived - OK, let's work this through. For a start, you're confusing Copenhagen with instrumentalism/shut-up-and-calculate.

Let's start with the equations of quantum mechanics (the Schroedinger equation, say). Here are three typical choices:

* Instrumentalism: assume that we can never know what the mathematical objects in the theory represent (or that we don't care) and just look at the probabilities of experimental results. Perfectly reasonable if you just want to build stuff.

* deBB: assume that the mathematical objects in the theory correspond to things that actually exist. This is also perfectly reasonable if you want to build stuff (it's the same maths) but it makes completely clear what is happening in an individual quantum event and hence guides thinking.

* TCI: because we are in thrall to the latest 1920s philosophical fashion which we heard in a pub assume that one of the two mathematical objects in the theory corresponds to something (God knows what?) that exists er.. only when humans look at it, and insist (with no evidence whatsoever) that nature must be fundamentally probabilistic. Allows you to build stuff but makes everyone who studies it utterly confused (witness the hordes of students posting here).

Now, if we asked a panel of independent witnesses to say which of those options is more contrived, what do you think they would say?


But who says metaphysics is not useful? Take the guy in the https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=372423" who's going on about the momentum being imaginary in classically-forbidden regions. His whole argument (though he won't have noticed this because he thinks philosophy is pointless) is based on the idea that an actual particle is tunneling through the barrier and that it has an actual momentum given by quantizing the expression 'mv'.

Now of course, if you do assume that particles exist (deBB) then their momentum is not given by the quantum equivalent of mv but by something else (because of the existence of the quantum force or particles being pushed around by the wave field). So the quantum-mechanical 'momentum' operator only gives the true momentum of a particle in the classical limit i.e. when the wave component is passive. Thus when you 'measure' the momentum in a quantum system, you are not in fact measuring anything at all. This is what people mean by 'contextuality'. So when people make physical arguments about 'the uncertainty in the momentum' they always talk as if they mean the actual uncertainty in the actual momentum of some particle even though, strictly speaking, \Delta p refers to one component of the stress tensor of the wave field.. (see Peter Holland's deBB textbook). Ho hum.

With hindsight we can now see how impractical, inhibiting ideas came to dominate and distort the entire development of quantum theory. The early quantum physicists attributed to nature a limitation we can now see was simply a deficiency of contemporary thought. [Holland, 1993]

"...This allows you to build stuff." When it comes down to it, this is what matters right now. You see the formalism of TCI or Instrumentalism as restrictive, and the coherent explanation of dBB is freeing. I don't. I see the concrete, but unlikely conjectures (not the math, but the interpretation of what that means) made by dBB as supporting a more anthropic and comfortable view of physics. TCI essentially says that the math is an accurate description of the system, and therefore whatever the math says is true. Hence, dead-cat, live-cat, +observer in box with cat, etc...

Is it confusing? Yes. Does it seem likely? I don't know. You say things like, "Corrosponds to something (God knows what?)", but that shows a human fallacy. Why do you take your intuitive experience to be more reliable than the math which allows us to, as you say, "build stuff"? I suppose I'm Instrumentalist willing to work with TCI, or even dBB and MWI, but I don't buy any of them. I DO believe that there is a description beyond the utility of the math, but I don't think we're at the point of forming a coherent description.

Given that dBB is a coherent description of apparently QM behaviour in a manner that is not purely probabilistic, I suppose you could say that in my eyes that makes it wrong from the outset. Yes, dBB is a construction that CURRENTLY holds up, but it wouldn't take much experimental or observational evidenence for it to be brushed aside. In my view, dBB (as I've said before) is more of an "option" waiting in the wings if TCI and Instrumentalism stop panning out. The thing is... they haven't yet, and the margin by which dBB can rely on Pilot Waves and particles instead of a true duality is slim. The fact that TCI is also a shakey theory or borne of academia is purely tu quoque. If the situation were reversed, a person positing TCI could make the same argument about exlusionist practictices, etc. In essence, they are both worth considering, and then the terms cancel.

EDIT: What if the universe operates in such a way that we can only ever hope to come CLOSER to a meaningful Interpretation, but ultimately can only guess and "build stuff" (which from a philosphical POV and not a physics one, is not unlikely or unreasonable). In addition, I do believe you apply Occam's Razor to the CONCEPTS which are introduced to explain the math in dBB/QM. TCI just says that the math which clearly shows everything being a function of probabilities, is literally right. This may seem counterintuitive, or silly, but it introduces no unecessary concepts not mandated by the math. dBB introduces a Pilot Wave and (now) non-local hidden variables. To say that I must give a better explanation of non-locality (entanglement) is also tu quoque. My response is that it is a poorly understood phenomenon, not yet well explained by any existing interpreation, and therefore the Instrumentalist approach is best.

What is so wrong with accepting the conditional and fluid nature of theory and knowledge? If medicine progresses as expected, we may all live long lives; long enough to see more than one theoretical framework be born and die. Get too wedded to one at your own peril, which may be the best argument for practicality of all time.
 
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  • #41
Frame Dragger said:
argument I haven't seen properly defended is just Occam's Razor. I read one defense of that one linked by Zenith, but while TCI is incredibly WEIRD, it doesn't make as many assumptions to stay deterministic.
Occam razor is a vague argument, because the notion of "simplicity" is not well defined.
Anyway, if you accept the argument that purely probabilistic interpretation of QM is simpler than Bohmian QM, then, by the same argument, you should also accept that a purely probabilistic interpretation of CLASSICAL mechanics is simpler than the standard deterministic view of classical mechanics. For the details see
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0505143 [Found.Phys.Lett. 19 (2006) 553]
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/0707.2319 [AIPConf.Proc.962:162-167,2007]
So, would you say that a purely probabilistic interpretation of classical mechanics is better or more convincing than the standard view of classical mechanics?
 
  • #42
zenith8 said:
But who says metaphysics is not useful? Take the guy in the https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=372423" who's going on about the momentum being imaginary in classically-forbidden regions. His whole argument (though he won't have noticed this because he will have been taught that philosophy is pointless) is based on the idea that an actual particle is tunneling through the barrier and that it has an actual momentum given by quantizing the expression 'mv'.

Hmm .. I guess you mean me. Interesting that you seem to think you know my (or anyone else's) opinions on philosophy without discussing them with me.

For the record, I definitely do not think philosophy is useless ... and I have no preference for either TCI or dBB (so far). I am a bit confused about why people seem to think one has to have a favorite. I have found it incredibly instructive to see how the different interpretations deal with different problems in Q.M. Perhaps my point of view will change as I learn more about dBB ...
 
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  • #43
Demystifier said:
Occam razor is a vague argument, because the notion of "simplicity" is not well defined.
Anyway, if you accept the argument that purely probabilistic interpretation of QM is simpler than Bohmian QM, then, by the same argument, you should also accept that a purely probabilistic interpretation of CLASSICAL mechanics is simpler than the standard deterministic view of classical mechanics. For the details see
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0505143 [Found.Phys.Lett. 19 (2006) 553]
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/0707.2319 [AIPConf.Proc.962:162-167,2007]
So, would you say that a purely probabilistic interpretation of classical mechanics is better or more convincing than the standard view of classical mechanics?

That definitely seems like reductio ad absurdum to me... Classical mechanics was a stepping stone on the way to notions of relativity and probability. Simplicity is relative within a given system. That said, of course arguments can be made for both sides; that's why dBB is around when virtually all of its compatriots died in the great "Bell's Theorem Pogrom" ;) and subsequent 'cuts'.

Like SpectraCat, I don't HAVE to stick to one Interpretation in my daily life (a luxury, I realize), so I don't. If I had to choose, I've shown that I'm ultimately Instrumentalist/Phenomonologist/Skeptic. It's not the most comfortable state of mind, but it works for now.
 
  • #44
Frame Dragger said:
Like SpectraCat, I don't HAVE to stick to one Interpretation in my daily life (a luxury, I realize), so I don't. If I had to choose, I've shown that I'm ultimately Instrumentalist/Phenomonologist/Skeptic.

Indeed, you were a Copenhagenist this morning.
 
  • #45
zenith8 said:
Indeed, you were a Copenhagenist this morning.

Play nice now... It's not easy to find your way in the world of interpretations of quantum theory. I still consider myself essentially an adherent of TCI, however from a practical point of view I'm obviously flexible. Part of that flexiblity is that none of the existing interpretations are without their gaping holes, or assumptions. A Pilot Wave and hidden variables, or wavefunction collapse and entanglement... it's not really the greatest choice of all time. That said, as counterintuitive as it may be, TCI seems to require the fewest additional elements to work. If I were to be in any situation outside of a debate over interpretations, I would generally just leave it as metaphysics and move on.

Beyond that, I refer to my earlier posts on the subject, and would simply say that the best description for QM is the most effective at describing the system and making predictions. dBB seems more concerned with just keeping alfoat.
 
  • #46
Ok, it's clear I need to do some homework to keep up with these discussions. I am looking for a good text on Bohmian mechanics. Would anyone recommend the recent book by Durr and Teufel? Is there a better choice? I would appreciate recommendations by zenith, maaneli and demystifier, or anyone else who is an expert on the subject.
 
  • #47
SpectraCat said:
Ok, it's clear I need to do some homework to keep up with these discussions. I am looking for a good text on Bohmian mechanics. Would anyone recommend the recent book by Durr and Teufel? Is there a better choice? I would appreciate recommendations by zenith, maaneli and demystifier, or anyone else who is an expert on the subject.

I'll second that. Feel free to make it a big reading list.
 
  • #48
SpectraCat said:
Ok, it's clear I need to do some homework to keep up with these discussions. I am looking for a good text on Bohmian mechanics. Would anyone recommend the recent book by Durr and Teufel? Is there a better choice? I would appreciate recommendations by zenith, maaneli and demystifier, or anyone else who is an expert on the subject.

Even though it's modern, I find Duerr and Teufel's book pretty poor - too much of the wrong sort of mathematics - not enough physics. And there's something about the pompous tone of the book that makes you want to hit them.

Peter Holland's 1993 book 'The Quantum Theory of Motion' is an exhaustively detailed presentation of the whole theory - essentially recalculating every result in standard QM from this new perspective. If you don't mind the excessive detail, it's great for the non-relativistic stuff. It's less good for the relativistic stuff (which wasn't that well developed back then anyway but never mind). D+T don't touch the relativistic stuff at all.

There's a new book by Peter Rigg called "Quantum Causality" which is a really good little discussion monograph - I like it. He unfortunately tries to rename the theory as the 'Causal theory of quantum mechanics' so no-one will actually know what it's about from looking at the title.

You could also read Bohm + Hiley's 'The Undivided Universe' from the same year as Holland, but I wouldn't bother yet (they're too clever to bother with boring details, and they mix in far too much speculative nutter stuff to make it a good introductory textbook).

If you just want a decent summary, [PLAIN]http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html" is good (there's also a 60+ slide popular lecture on the same site which I really like). Obviously he lacks the detail of a proper textbook but he manages to pack a surprising amount in (he doen't get very far into the relativistic theory either).

Antony Valentini is apparently writing a comprehensive textbook that should be out this year. This won't help you at the moment obviously but it will be the one to read, I'm sure. His recent historical study "Quantum Theory at the Crossroads: reconsidering the 1927 Solvay Conference" (2009) - also available online - was a revelation to me regarding the historical context.

A final decent option might be reading some of the review articles. There is a comprehensive list of Bohm/pilot-wave references with links on Towler's [PLAIN]http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html" (Click 'Further Reading' in the right hand column).
 
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  • #49
zenith8 said:
Even though it's modern, I find Duerr and Teufel's book pretty poor - too much of the wrong sort of mathematics - not enough physics. And there's something about the pompous tone of the book that makes you want to hit them.

Peter Holland's 1993 book 'The Quantum Theory of Motion' is an exhaustively detailed presentation of the whole theory - essentially recalculating every result in standard QM from this new perspective. If you don't mind the excessive detail, it's great for the non-relativistic stuff. It's less good for the relativistic stuff (which wasn't that well developed back then anyway but never mind). D+T don't touch the relativistic stuff at all.

There's a new book by Peter Rigg called "Quantum Causality" which is a really good little discussion monograph - I like it. He unfortunately tries to rename the theory as the 'Causal theory of quantum mechanics' so no-one will actually know what it's about from looking at the title.

You could also read Bohm + Hiley's 'The Undivided Universe' from the same year as Holland, but I wouldn't bother yet (they're too clever to bother with boring details, and they mix in far too much speculative nutter stuff to make it a good introductory textbook).

If you just want a decent summary, [PLAIN]http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html" is good (there's also a 60+ slide popular lecture on the same site which I really like). Obviously he lacks the detail of a proper textbook but he manages to pack a surprising amount in (he doen't get very far into the relativistic theory either).

Antony Valentini is apparently writing a comprehensive textbook that should be out this year. This won't help you at the moment obviously but it will be the one to read, I'm sure. His recent historical study "Quantum Theory at the Crossroads: reconsidering the 1927 Solvay Conference" (2009) - also available online - was a revelation to me regarding the historical context.

A final decent option might be reading some of the review articles. There is a comprehensive list of Bohm/pilot-wave references with links on Towler's [PLAIN]http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html" (Click 'Further Reading' in the right hand column).

I agree with zenith's recommendations. And Towler's further reading list is in fact the most comprehensive archive on the subject available anywhere.
 
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  • #50
Thanks very mich Zenith, Maaneli.
 
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