Positive charge atomic form-factor

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Discussion Overview

This discussion revolves around the concept of the positive charge atomic form-factor, particularly in the context of elastic and inelastic scattering processes in atoms. Participants explore the nature of the positive charge cloud in atoms, its comparison to negative charge smearing, and the implications for scattering experiments.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe the positive charge atomic form-factor fnn'(q) as representing the positive charge cloud in atoms, which is distinct from the Hofstadter form-factor related to nuclear size.
  • It is noted that the positive charge cloud may be significantly larger in excited states, such as in Rydberg atoms, due to the nucleus's motion around the atomic center of inertia.
  • There is a suggestion that the shape of the positive charge cloud in Hydrogen resembles atomic orbitals but is scaled down to shorter distances.
  • Some participants question whether the positive charge cloud is simply analogous to nuclear shells, with one suggesting that the term "nuclear" is misleading and should be referred to as "a nucleus shell in atom."
  • Participants discuss the conditions under which atomic nucleus shells can be observed, emphasizing the role of fast charged projectiles and the challenges in distinguishing between elastic and inelastic scattering processes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the realism of the positive charge smearing compared to negative charge smearing. There is no consensus on whether the positive charge cloud is equivalent to nuclear shells, with some agreeing and others questioning this characterization.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes references to specific experimental conditions necessary for observing the positive charge atomic form-factor and the complexities involved in measuring elastic versus inelastic scattering events. Limitations in distinguishing these processes are acknowledged.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying atomic physics, scattering theory, and the behavior of atomic charge distributions in various states.

Have you ever heard/learned of the positive charge atomic formfactor before?

  • Yes, I have.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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    4
  • Poll closed .
Bob_for_short
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IT IS A POLL!

I would like to learn if you've ever heard of the positive charge atomic form-factor before my asking this question. The positive charge atomic form-factor fnn'(q) stands at the nucleus charge Z and describes the positive charge cloud in atoms for elastic scattering at large angles (n→n). It also describes inelastic scattering channels - hitting nucleus by a projectile excites an atom (n→n'). The elastic and inelastic positive charge atomic form-factors are entirely determined with atomic wave functions ψn(r) and they have nothing in common with the Hofstadter form-factor describing the proper nucleus size. The positive "cloud" size may be very big if the initial and the final atomic states ψn(r) are excited and metastable, like in Rydberg atoms. This is just effect of the nucleus motion around the atomic center of inertia. Physically it is of the same nature as the negative (electron) charge atomic form-factor Fnn'(q). The numerical difference is just in the "could" sizes - the negative one is larger (an), the positive is smaller ((me/Mp)an for Hydrogen, for example). Correspondingly the scattering angles where these form-factors work differ essentially - at small and large angles.

The details can be found in my article "Atom as a "dressed" nucleus" in arXiv (http://arxiv.org/abs/0806.2635).

Do not hesitate to leave your answer and thanks for participating in this poll.

Bob_for_short.
 
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You can also leave your opinion on whether the effect of the positive charge smearing in atoms seems to you as realistic as the negative charge smearing or not. Of course, if you have not studied this subject (scattering from atoms, atomic form-factors), leave nothing.

Bob_for_short.
 
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The positive charge cloud in Hydrogen is of the same shape as usual atomic orbitals but scaled down to much shorter distances. See figures for 2p and 3p states. Isn't it beautiful? I added a couple of other pictures.
 

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isnt that just the nuclear shells?
 
granpa said:
isnt that just the nuclear shells?

The term "nuclear" is associated with the strong interactions. It is better to say "a nucleus shell in atom".

Yes, the positive charge cloud is an atomic nucleus shell.

Bob.
 
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Final remark (it is explained in details in "Atom...") concerning observation of these atomic nucleus shells. It is possible in the elastic scattering processes when the initial and the final states of the target atom is the same: ψn(r)→ψn(r). We have to deal with fast charged projectiles whose de Broglie wave-length is smaller than the cloud size. And we have to scatter them at large angles.
In these conditions a fast charged projectile transfers a big momentum to the nucleus so the atom can get easily excited (inelastic processes: ψn(r)→ψn'(r)). In reality it is difficult, without special experimental facility, to distinguish the elastic from inelastic processes. When one observes only the scattered projectiles, all cross section (elastic and inelastic events) are added up experimentally. It is called the inclusive cross section. It is easy to show that the inclusive cross section dσinclusive=∑dσn→n' is reduced quite accurately to the Rutherford cross section, as if the target nucleus were "free" and situated at the atomic center of inertia. This fact explains why the notion of point-like particle finds the "experimental" support. In specially designed experiments one can distinguish the elastic dσn→n from inelastic cross sections and obtain the figures presented above.

The journal version of "Atom..." is available at the Central European Journal of Physics site: http://www.springerlink.com/content/h3414375681x8635/?p=14dbc7f5eda74d6886686dc5b899036d&pi=0

Bob_for_short.
 
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The poll ends up today.
 
Last edited:
The poll had 870 visitors, they left 0 replies "Yes" and 5 replies "No", that is it.
 

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