Simple relativistic harmonic oscillator

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of a relativistic harmonic oscillator model, particularly in the context of nuclear fission and optical phenomena. Participants explore the implications of this model for understanding nuclear reactions and the behavior of light in dispersive media.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a numerical model of a one-dimensional harmonic oscillator, suggesting it could represent a reaction coordinate for a liquid drop actinide nucleus during neutron absorption.
  • Another participant challenges the nuclear-physics application, stating that the mass parameter should be considered an "inertial parameter" and noting the significant uncertainties in calculating it.
  • Concerns are raised about the anharmonicities in the model and the quantum-mechanical nature of nuclear vibrations, which may not align with classical harmonic oscillator assumptions.
  • A participant acknowledges the simplicity of their model but emphasizes the need to understand the chaotic motion involved in fission, proposing a reaction coordinate analogy from chemical kinetics.
  • Discussion shifts to the potential relevance of the model in analyzing optical phenomena, particularly in dispersive media where the refractive index can significantly affect light propagation.
  • One participant notes that the speed of light in relativity is not altered by the refractive index of a medium, suggesting a distinction between classical optics and relativistic effects.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of the relativistic harmonic oscillator to nuclear fission, with some agreeing on the model's limitations while others propose alternative contexts for its use. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific applications and implications of the model.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the model, including the dependence on approximations for inertial parameters and the complexities of quantum mechanics in nuclear systems. There is also an acknowledgment of the need for a more nuanced understanding of the relationship between classical and relativistic effects in different contexts.

photonist
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In the attached file, I have formulated a simple one dimensional harmonic oscillator and solved the model numerically. Such a model might represent a simple reaction coordinate along which a liquid drop actinide nucleus might split after absorbing a neutron. Clearly the complete model involves multiple modes and highly non-linear behaviour of the Hook's Law spring constant. But at least the approach this problem seems relatively simple.
 

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Hi, photonist,

Welcome to PF!

Cool idea! However, I don't think the nuclear-physics application is right.

Fist off, the mass parameter is not going to be the mass defect. This kind of thing is generically known as an "inertial parameter" in nuclear physics, and it is very difficult to calculate. There are various approximations that can be written down for them, based on, e.g., low-amplitude oscillations of a classical, nonviscous liquid drop. But in reality, these approximations are only good to within about an order of magnitude. One reason is that nuclei are superfluid in the ground states. The only thing that really *is* straightforward to calculate is the inertial parameter after scission, which is just what you would expect classically for two separate bodies.

In the case of spontaneous fission, the order-of-magnitude theoretical uncertainty in the inertial parameter swamps any relativistic corrections. The relativistic corrections are quite small, since the fragments are not highly relativistic.

In addition, the anharmonicities are huge, especially when you're talking about fission (as opposed to a simple vibration of the nuclear shape about its equilibrium). Also it's a quantum-mechanical system, not a classical one. And nuclear vibrations at small amplitudes are typically not very highly collective, which means that it isn't really very accurate to think of them as pure shape oscillations; they're more like somewhat coherent superpositions of some small number of different single-particle excitations.

-Ben
 
HI Ben:
Thanks for your comments. Generally I agree with you--for one thing, the motion I posit is too simple.

However, the problem is interesting considering that fission in the odd actinides is occasioned by a thermal neutron--the energy gain is tremendous!

It is true that the droplet can be considered a superfluid and the Hook's Law constant is a measure of the separation of the neutron and proton fluid sub-components. But even so, when the thermal neutron is absorbed there has to be a path along a reaction coordinate (just as in chemical kinetics) established from the chaotic motion. A better approach would be to consider just how that is accomplished.

But the reason I looked into this problem was not to contribute to the liquid drop model, but rather to establish for myself a coherent special relativistic account of the harmonic oscillator problem to correct errors I found on the web. The liquid drop model appeared to be a possible case where the oscillator model would apply.

The novel feature of increasing odd harmonics as the maximum potential energy approaches the 'rest' energy suggests a decomposition mode. As the ratio approaches 1, the motion becomes 'unbound' (subject to the caveats mentioned).

Curious.
 
Ben:

You've pretty much disposed of fission as a potential candidate for my relativistic harmonic oscillator. There is of course plenty of MeV physics for which such analysis might be useful.

But what about a strongly optically dispersive medium on the short/long wavelength side of the absorption/gain line in which the refractive index can become really large. In effect the speed of light within a certain bandwidth will be greatly slowed. If that were the case, then harmonic oscillator radiators might exhibit 'relativistic' effects based on the local speed of light.
 
photonist said:
Ben:

You've pretty much disposed of fission as a potential candidate for my relativistic harmonic oscillator. There is of course plenty of MeV physics for which such analysis might be useful.

But what about a strongly optically dispersive medium on the short/long wavelength side of the absorption/gain line in which the refractive index can become really large. In effect the speed of light within a certain bandwidth will be greatly slowed. If that were the case, then harmonic oscillator radiators might exhibit 'relativistic' effects based on the local speed of light.

The c in relativity doesn't change based on the index of refraction of a medium.

You might be interested in this:

http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/SCIENCE/Rindler/SimpleElasticity.html
 

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