News Somali Pirates seize super tanker

[edward]

It is time to use some high tech to lower the boom on these criminals.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-piracy19-2008nov19,0,5645455.story

 

[LowlyPion]

It is time to use some high tech to lower the boom on these criminals.

I'm all for that.

Go in there and shoot first and ask later to any Zodiacs or speed boats far from the coast.

Don't tell me they can't track them back to where they go back ashore and send in some Apaches to alter their waterlines.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

How the heck can some ruffians in a speedboat get aboard a super tanker?

 

[lisab]

How the heck can some ruffians in a speedboat get aboard a super tanker?

Seems that it would be easy to keep them from coming aboard, doesn't it?

Installing some sort of locks on the control panels on the ship would be easy, too.

 

[mgb_phys]

They're almost a quarter of a mile long with a deck covered in pipework walkways and places to hide. You would need a lot of people to patrol it.
You have a crew contantly going in and out of the superstruture and the bad guys have machine guns so a few door locks wouldn't really help.

Normally the pirates just want the petty cash so there hasn't been a huge amount of effort to stop them - rather like not stopping hijackers before 9/11.
It looks like efforts might be improved, or at least ships provided with escorts.

 

[NeoDevin]

Do you guys even read the articles? The crew was all of 25 people. They probably were not well armed (if armed at all). All it will take is a few people with weapons to take it over, and then threaten the crew if they don't unlock any control panels.

Edit: I mean really, how many people were on board the planes on 9/11, and they were hijacked by a couple of people with exacto knives. Only on one of the planes did the passengers manage to overpower the hijackers.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Do you guys even read the articles? The crew was all of 25 people. They probably were not well armed (if armed at all). All it will take is a few people with weapons to take it over, and then threaten the crew if they don't unlock any control panels.

Edit: I mean really, how many people were on board the planes on 9/11, and they were hijacked by a couple of people with exacto knives. Only on one of the planes did the passengers manage to overpower the hijackers.

I am confused how they got on the ship. Looking at super tanker photos, it's not like they dock next to the ship and step on. It looks especially hard if the tanker is moving at a fast click.

 

[LowlyPion]

How the heck can some ruffians in a speedboat get aboard a super tanker?

In some cases they don't I think.

They just move up alongside a tanker with RPG's. A $100M tanker with a load of crude spewing in the Indian Ocean weighed against a ransom looks like chump change foreign aid to the Saudis.

 

[NeoDevin]

I am confused how they got on the ship. Looking at super tanker photos, it's not like they dock next to the ship and step on. It looks especially hard if the tanker is moving at a fast click.

LowlyPion's suggestion would work, or just match speed and throw a rope up.

 

[mgb_phys]

You just throw (or fire) a grapnel and climb up the rope. There are also a lot of ladders and gangways for pilot access etc. Because of piracy container ships are being more careful about stowing these but it hasn't been an issue for tankers upto now.
The usual defence is a firehose - large ships have lots of high power pumps and a RIB doesn't do well if you dump a few 1000 gallons of water on it!

It's quite hard to seriously damage a double hull tanker with an rpg or even crashing a speed boat into it, in addition it's not easyto set light to heavy crude.

 

[LowlyPion]

You just throw (or fire) a grapnel and climb up the rope. There are also a lot of ladders and gangways for pilot access etc. Because of piracy container ships are being more careful about stowing these but it hasn't been an issue for tankers upto now.
The usual defence is a firehose - large ships have lots of high power pumps and a RIB doesn't do well if you dump a few 1000 gallons of water on it!

It's quite hard to seriously damage a double hull tanker with an rpg or even crashing a speed boat into it, in addition it's not easyto set light to heavy crude.

You'd think that putting a few counter-insurgency troops on board with a bit of weaponry would be a surprise. Imagine if an Apache gunship launched from the deck and hunted then down and just flat destroyed all pirate boats in the area? No surrender permitted. Wouldn't they want to rethink their idea of easy riches?

 

[Art]

You'd think that putting a few counter-insurgency troops on board with a bit of weaponry would be a surprise. Imagine if an Apache gunship launched from the deck and hunted then down and just flat destroyed all pirate boats in the area? No surrender permitted. Wouldn't they want to rethink their idea of easy riches?

You're sounding a lot like GWB jk

 

[Proton Soup]

i would be all for spraying them down with fuel if they get too close to the ship.

 

[NeoDevin]

i would be all for spraying them down with fuel if they get too close to the ship.

For sure, who needs the all those sea creatures anyways.

 

[jreelawg]

I'm going to withhold the judgment as to whether the pirates are bad guys or not for now.

If you think about it, this new trend may be a side effect of an economic world crisis, and the effects it is having on the people who were already suffering massive crisis and famine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/17/world/africa/17somalia.html

If you ask how did some ruffians manage to get aboard a super tanker, my answer is that life will find a way. Really for all I know these pirates may be heros. I don't know what they are going to do with the 36,000 tons of wheat that they highjacked, but there certainly are a lot of Somalians who could use it. I hope the pirates do the right thing there. I bet their eyes lit up when they found out that the ship was full of grain. Jackpot

The sad thing is that Somalia's main (almost only) export and source of income is food. The thing is that all of it gets shipped out to other countries who can afford to buy it.

I don't want to pardon the acts of piracy, or intend to know that these pirates are modern day robin hoods, but hey maybe they are.

Somalia is undergoing such horrible famine, but UN and other aids offering food won't go near the place in fear of being kidnapped or murdered. The result is that aid has been cut off.

One main reason that U.N. workers are so threatened is due to a U.S. air strike on one of Somalia's most famine ridden cities in an attempt at killing a terrorist, carried out under GWB.

 

[Hurkyl]

I'm going to withhold the judgment as to whether the pirates are bad guys or not for now.

For someone opening with this comment, you spend a surprising amount of effort to judge them as good guys.

You know, I don't want to call these guys villains intent on the destruction of all life in the western hemisphere, but hey, maybe they are!

 

[jreelawg]

I'm just saying they have the potential to be. When a nation is under the threat of being starved out of existence, you'd expect fearless pirates. This may be a new thing that we will have to lump with terrorism as we watch the results of a free market, globalization, depleting resources, overpopulation and a crumbling world economy.

My main point was that, just that as the we move into the future, it is inevitable that many third world countries are going to increasing suffer.

The second point is that people will do extreme things under extreme crisis, and it doesn't surprise me that people in such an environment would be so fearless about it.

Third point, the irony that the piracy coencides with a world economic crisis, being felt most dramatically in places like Somalia. And the idea that some ruffians managed to hi jack 33000 tons of wheat.

 

[Art]

One less to worry about

BBC NEWS
India 'sinks Somali pirate ship'

An Indian navy warship has destroyed a suspected Somali pirate vessel after it came under attack in the Gulf of Aden.

INS Tabar sank the pirate "mother ship" after it failed to stop for investigation and opened fire instead, an Indian navy statement said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/7736885.stm

 

[LowlyPion]

I'm just saying they have the potential to be. When a nation is under the threat of being starved out of existence, you'd expect fearless pirates. This may be a new thing that we will have to lump with terrorism as we watch the results of a free market, globalization, depleting resources, overpopulation and a crumbling world economy.

My main point was that, just that as the we move into the future, it is inevitable that many third world countries are going to increasing suffer.

The second point is that people will do extreme things under extreme crisis, and it doesn't surprise me that people in such an environment would be so fearless about it.

Third point, the irony that the piracy coencides with a world economic crisis, being felt most dramatically in places like Somalia. And the idea that some ruffians managed to hi jack 33000 tons of wheat.

None of those are excuses.

They may be motivating factors, but they are no excuse to abandon civilization. They hijack for personal gain period. These aren't Robin Hoods. They should expect to be dealt with in the harshest terms, as the pirates of any age have been. And not just in Somalia but throughout the world wherever they prey. For instance the Strait of Malacca has been a hot bed for centuries.

 

[Borek]

Really for all I know these pirates may be heros. I don't know what they are going to do with the 36,000 tons of wheat that they highjacked, but there certainly are a lot of Somalians who could use it. I hope the pirates do the right thing there. I bet their eyes lit up when they found out that the ship was full of grain.

You may be absolutely sure they will not give the grain to those needing it. They will sell it for their own profit.

One of the problems faced by all food programs is that distribution is ineffective, because local warlords do whatever they can to control the food to be sure they can sell it instead of giving for free. This is happening especially in such regions as Somalia, where nation is too week to enforce law and order.

If you ask me - trap ship time. It worked during IWW, it will work this time.

 

[kasse]

Skip the Red Sea and sail around the horn. Somali pirates are crazy.

 

[LowlyPion]

Skip the Red Sea and sail around the horn. Somali pirates are crazy.

Why go out of the way?

Just hunt them down like dogs and exterminate them.

With pirate heads washing up on Somali shores they would get the message.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Who's going to hunt them down like dogs and exterminate them?

 

[LowlyPion]

Who's going to hunt them down like dogs and exterminate them?

Looks like this link that Art provided is a start.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/7736885.stm

At $30M in hijackings so far this year that's beginning to be more than nuisance money. And besides that it is the kind of action US technology could easily dominate. Drone planes, sidewinder missiles, satellite surveillance and the symbolism of it all for the US to be doing the right thing in the world again.

Pirates are inevitably ruined by their own success. Threatening the world's shipping lanes puts the pirates down hill from the outhouse.

 

[mgb_phys]

Who's going to hunt them down like dogs and exterminate them?

Thats why tankers have generally been safe upto now.
If pirates hit a Liberian registered cargo ship carrying Chinese toys to Singapore who is going to pay for a naval escort? Hitting a tanker in the M.E. is a threat to the west's oil supply so is likely to provoke the displeasure of some people with a lot of firepower.
I imagine quite a few navies are annoyed that the Indians got first blood.

A company I worked for make a lot of the navigation and postioning systems used by rigs and tankers. We looked at building security and intruder detection systems but a lot of the areas like the Strait of Malacca or Straits of Hormuz are so busy with small boats that you can't fire missiles at every junk or fishing boat that approaches and even with a warning of an intruder onboard the crews are small, poorly paid and not about to risk their lives in a firefight.
Generally containerised and bulk cargos are difficult to dispose of so the target is usually just the ships operating cash and any personal possesions of the crew. Ironically on boarding a ship with $100Ms of cargo the pirates will typically get away with less than the value of the system that's supposed to detect them.

 

[Borek]

sidewinder missiles

For now Hellfire will do the trick. AFAIK pirates are not yet airborne.

 

[turbo]

If you ask me - trap ship time. It worked during IWW, it will work this time.

Bring back the Q-boats!

 

[arildno]

I'm just saying they have the potential to be. When a nation is under the threat of being starved out of existence, you'd expect fearless pirates. This may be a new thing that we will have to lump with terrorism as we watch the results of a free market, globalization, depleting resources, overpopulation and a crumbling world economy.

My main point was that, just that as the we move into the future, it is inevitable that many third world countries are going to increasing suffer.

The second point is that people will do extreme things under extreme crisis, and it doesn't surprise me that people in such an environment would be so fearless about it.

Third point, the irony that the piracy coencides with a world economic crisis, being felt most dramatically in places like Somalia. And the idea that some ruffians managed to hi jack 33000 tons of wheat.

Silly boy. The pirates were not poor to begin with.
Those who ARE poor and starving are not aboard those pirate ships.

 

[LowlyPion]

For now Hellfire will do the trick. AFAIK pirates are not yet airborne.

Thanks. I suspected it wasn't Sidewinder and I see now that Hellfires are adapted to be deployed from drones as well as Apaches - which was the general idea.

I think the point is it would take a heck of an escalation for pirates to be able to deal with such systems and that would make their land bases that much easier to identify and strike.

 

[Art]

Thanks. I suspected it wasn't Sidewinder and I see now that Hellfires are adapted to be deployed from drones as well as Apaches - which was the general idea.

I think the point is it would take a heck of an escalation for pirates to be able to deal with such systems and that would make their land bases that much easier to identify and strike.

They know where their land bases are but apparently it would take a UN resolution to legally attack them there.

Rules frustrate anti-piracy efforts

The international effort to stop piracy off Somalia has not worked and the effort clearly needs to be stepped up into a higher gear.

The response so far has been twofold: first, to assemble naval forces to try to stop the pirates on the high seas; second, to encourage a political settlement within the fractured state of Somalia to enable law and order to be established.

These days, there is no question of a bombardment of the port of Eyl, the main pirate base on the Somali coast. That might be the most effective response but it would require a UN Security Council resolution.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7735144.stm

 

[kasse]

Well done, India!

 

[LowlyPion]

They know where their land bases are but apparently it would take a UN resolution to legally attack them there.

I'm sure if the pirates keep it up they can get enough countries fed up with them to go along with that.

The Somali government could also permit such actions. A little Foreign aid and skids can be greased I'd think.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

The Somali government could also permit such actions. A little Foreign aid and skids can be greased I'd think.

There is no Somali government. The closest thing is probably the Transitional Federal Government which does not actually control the country. I'm guessing Joe the Pirate is behind in his taxes too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Somalia"

 

[BobG]

The early precursor to Somali pirates: http://www.illegal-fishing.info/item_single.php?item=news&item_id=145&approach_id=13

Resulting in fisherman finding a new way to make a living: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008267714_pirates15.html

Of course, at first the pirates mainly went after foreign fishing boats, slowly expanding to other small targets, and now have reached the point of being able to threaten oil tankers further from the coast than ever before.

Now Somali pirates obtain around $100 million a year in ransoms. Not quite breaking even for the $300 million in losses due to foreign fishing, but getting closer. Now that they've become a large enough threat, I doubt they'll ever actually reach the break even point, though.

 

[devil-fire]

I think even large ships have been at risk of pirate attack in some areas for a long time. A gas powered grappling hook is all it would take to get up onto the deck of most large ships.

From what I have read about piracy, it is mostly the usual lawless thugs who are in the business. Mostly independent organizations of people who want something and see an opportunity to get it.

mgb_phys is right, pirates try to loot the crew of money and belonging that can be loaded onto their speed boats, not the cargo of the ship itself. Could you imagine how difficult it would be for 25 people from a coastal fishing city to off-load thousands of tons of grain? Assuming their city has a port that could accommodate that size of ship, and assuming the local police wouldn't stop them and assuming the pirates aren't concern about being arrested when they get back to shore, their best option for unloading grain would be to throw the grain over the side of the ship one bucket full at a time.

You also have to remember these are just common criminals in a country that doesn't have the police man power to investigate crimes that take place foreign vessels, so fireing missiles into pirate bases... that is just straight out of an 80s B action movie. It wouldn't make sense to try to bomb a drug dealer's base (aka his house or apartment) because it would kill a lot more people then are involved in drug dealing but mostly because a police raid would do a much better job. I mean for the cost of 1 UAV and 1 missie, you could pay the wage of the entire Somalian police force for a year.

The best and most money efficient solution would be to help the Somalis bring their country out of lawlessness (at least the coastal areas where the pirates operate out of) but that would take years and it would just be a complicated arrangement to make sure things are done right. Also it scores popularity points for a country to send out multi-million dollar ships to patrol around searching for pirate activity when otherwise they would just be floating there doing nothing.

 

[BobG]

There is no Somali government. The closest thing is probably the Transitional Federal Government which does not actually control the country. I'm guessing Joe the Pirate is behind in his taxes too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Somalia"

The best and most money efficient solution would be to help the Somalis bring their country out of lawlessness (at least the coastal areas where the pirates operate out of) but that would take years and it would just be a complicated arrangement to make sure things are done right. Also it scores popularity points for a country to send out multi-million dollar ships to patrol around searching for pirate activity when otherwise they would just be floating there doing nothing.

Don't count on bringing Somalia out lawlessness any time soon.

Somalia has more tribal factions fighting for power than Afghanistan does. Somalia has been in civil war since 1991. Afghanistan since at least 1980 (with a break in warfare imposed by the Taliban, thanks to outside financial backing).

Factions in the Somali Civil War

 

[kasse]

Somali islamists promise to fight the pirates and protect the ships in the region.

 

[edward]

The more money they collect in ransom the more sophisticated their weapons will be the next time.

Crews only need a way to keep the small boats at a distance. The older TOW missiles had a range of something like 3000 meters.

A Norwegian company is now routing its 90+ ships around Africa rather than using the Suez canal.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/11/18/pirates.norway/

I have a gut feeling the USA is waiting for a private security force to step in.

 

[LowlyPion]

I have a gut feeling the USA is waiting for a private security force to step in.

That might be more problematical as opposed to a say a United Nations Safe Sea Keeping Force.

For instance a private firm would be subject to litigation more easily for damage and death to pirates, or for that matter the ships they were protecting if they failed to do so.

Moreover, a United Nations force would likely not lack for the authority to attack any land bases either, which is ultimately the best way to deny them any respite.

 

[Borek]

The older TOW missiles had a range of something like 3000 meters.

I would prefer some machine gun, 7.62 or even 12 mm. TOW is one shot and it is effective against armored vehicles, that's not the case.

 

[Office_Shredder]

For instance a private firm would be subject to litigation more easily for damage and death to pirates, or for that matter the ships they were protecting if they failed to do so.

Subject to litigation through what? The US suggested ships hire their own security... there's no government in Somalia that can enforce any kind of lawsuit (and hence no international treaties that Somalians fall under) and in international waters, I'm not sure what the rule is.

On the issue of good guy/bad guy pirates... well, they're not good guys, but
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/19/world/main4616998.shtml?tag=topStories;secondStory

 

[jreelawg]

That might be more problematical as opposed to a say a United Nations Safe Sea Keeping Force.

For instance a private firm would be subject to litigation more easily for damage and death to pirates, or for that matter the ships they were protecting if they failed to do so.

Moreover, a United Nations force would likely not lack for the authority to attack any land bases either, which is ultimately the best way to deny them any respite.

The thing is, we have aided the warlord responsible for preventing stability. It is part of our effort to crush Islamic extremism. The problem is that the instability is makeing the place a living hell. Of coarse they are another country who likes to stone people to death for crimes and what not, so the problem is complex. We want to get rid of the "Islamic extremist culture"
, but our efforts only make more of them, and keep the place in chaos.

http://www.hiiraan.com/op2/2008/nov/obama_policy_options_in_somalia.aspx
The pirates haven't stolen anything from the U.S., why should we use action to help Iranian corporations and such.

If we use action we will also bring attention to the millions who are facing starvation. When people see the suffering and then learn that we have supported the warlord, it will strike up more anti americanism. Our best bet is to pretend they don't even exist. Certainly bombing famine ridden villages wouldn't look good for us.

 

[edward]

I would prefer some machine gun, 7.62 or even 12 mm. TOW is one shot and it is effective against armored vehicles, that's not the case.

The point is to keep the small boats away from the tankers and not get involved in a fire fight. I mentioned TOW only as as example because of it's 3000m range. If it can kill a tank it can kill anything that the pirates have in the water.

There were 5 series of TOW missiles produced and we have many of them left because we no longer anticipate an armored ground battle.

We also have a number of other missiles that would work as well.



Fire a missile over their bow at 3000 meters out and they won't want to come any closer.

 

[edward]

The pirarcy needs to be stopped now before they make enough money to get sophisticated weapons.

There is no firm deterrent, that's why the pirate attacks are continuing. The criminal activities are flourishing because the risks are low and the rewards are extremely high," Choong said.

Tuesday's incidents bring the number of attacks in Somali waters this year to 95, with 39 ships hijacked.

Thai government spokesman Nattawut Sai-gua said he had not been informed of the development. He said officials are checking with their diplomatic missions in the region.

Choong said 17 vessels remain in the hands of pirates along with more than 300 crew, including a Ukrainian ship loaded with arms and a Saudi Arabian supertanker carrying $US100 million ($A153.35 million) in crude.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/pirates-strike-again-17-ships-held/2008/11/19/1226770531523.html

 

[LowlyPion]

Fire a missile over their bow at 3000 meters out and they won't want to come any closer.

A Javelin would do it. But why bother to miss? Take out the Bridge. And then negotiate from there.

 

[Proton Soup]

For sure, who needs the all those sea creatures anyways.

no worries, it floats, and as soon as they open fire or launch a rocket-propelled grapnel, it all goes up in smoke.

i think some cruise ships actually have water cannons to use as defense. but they could use flamethrowers or industrial strength silly string for all i care. whatever it takes to neutralize the threat.

 

[jreelawg]

Why not use non lethal EM weapons. They could be operated from a computer from a well secured location on the ship. They could either use the one that makes your skin feel like it is burning, or they could use the new one that exploits the frey effect made public recently that beams sound directly into peoples brains at intense levels.

 

[jreelawg]

Savage thinks we ought to kidnap the families of the pirates and threaten to kill them if they don't stop. Perhaps we should just nuke the whole continent of Africa.

 

[devil-fire]

The water cannons do a fine job, the problem is not being able to detect the pirate ships before they are on board or at least knowing it is a pirate ship instead of a fishing ship that happens to be unusually close.

I think anti-tank missiles, torpedoes, the navy seals, 12 inch cannons, cruise missiles, F-22 Raptors, Abrams tanks, helicopter gun ships, and EM non-lethal weapons would all be hugely expensive to equip every ship in the area with and would cause more problems then they would solve.

Bombing their bases? These aren't paramilitary. They have more in common with the Crypts, Bloods and Mafia then they have with the Tamil Tigers. Could you imagine if a barber shop in New York was hit with a cruise missile because it was a base used by the Mafia? You could bet New Yorkers wouldn't be vary happy with Obama after that one.

 

[LowlyPion]

The water cannons do a fine job, the problem is not being able to detect the pirate ships before they are on board or at least knowing it is a pirate ship instead of a fishing ship that happens to be unusually close.

I think anti-tank missiles, torpedoes, the navy seals, 12 inch cannons, cruise missiles, F-22 Raptors, Abrams tanks, helicopter gun ships, and EM non-lethal weapons would all be hugely expensive to equip every ship in the area with and would cause more problems then they would solve.

Bombing their bases? These aren't paramilitary. They have more in common with the Crypts, Bloods and Mafia then they have with the Tamil Tigers. Could you imagine if a barber shop in New York was hit with a cruise missile because it was a base used by the Mafia? You could bet New Yorkers wouldn't be vary happy with Obama after that one.

I'd say if the people in Somalia aren't excited by metal rain then they might want to rethink embracing a pirate economy.

Of course our own government has more devastating weapons at its disposal than cruise missiles for the Mafia. They have the IRS.