Step down Transformer 240v AC to 12v 100amp

[burnit]

Hi All,

I have a step down Transformer 240v AC to 12v 100amp output.

My question is, can i use this as a step up transformer as well by connecting to the other side of it?

My supply voltage is of course 240v AC, this can be controlled with a 240v 10amp Variac to take it easy on things.

Not sure so i thought i had better ask first.

Thank You

 

[Danger]

As far as I know, any step-down transformer is also a step-up unit if fed from the other end. I'd seriously recommend that you check with the manufacturer to find out if the coils and insulation can handle the reverse of their original function. There's a serious fire/shock/generic **** hazard if you proceed without professional assistance.

 

[burnit]

As far as I know, any step-down transformer is also a step-up unit if fed from the other end. I'd seriously recommend that you check with the manufacturer to find out if the coils and insulation can handle the reverse of their original function. There's a serious fire/shock/generic **** hazard if you proceed without professional assistance.

Danger, no way of checking from the manufacturer, it's an older transformer.
I am aware of the dangers involved, i was hoping to get the professional assistance from this forum.

 

[Danger]

Sorry that I can't help you with the professional aspect; I'm not all that well educated. Since I have no idea of your background, I chose to go the cautionary route. Bear in mind that some of our members, let alone onlookers, are pre-teens. It's imperative that nobody is ever injured due to something posted here. I apologize if I offended you with my response.

 

[burnit]

Sorry that I can't help you with the professional aspect; I'm not all that well educated. Since I have no idea of your background, I chose to go the cautionary route. Bear in mind that some of our members, let alone onlookers, are pre-teens. It's imperative that nobody is ever injured due to something posted here. I apologize if I offended you with my response.

Danger,

No need to apologise as Caution is top priority when working with electricity & your comments are to be noted by all.

No offence taken actually, you couldn't affend me with a brick, I am Aussie hahaha!

 

[Danger]

Well, good on ya, mate.
You got to hook up with Astronuc. He's been across the lake for a long time, but still a Foster's man.

And just so's you know, I'm a Canuck, not a Yank.

 

[burnit]

Ok, looking further into it i see that transformers are bi-lateral & can be used as either a step up or step down.
It has been advised that i use no more than 12v into the primary winding resulting in no more that 240v from the secondary winding using it as a step up transformer.

Is there a reason or explanation why no more than 12v can be applied to the primary winding to achieve a higher secondary winding output?

 

[Phrak]

Ok, looking further into it i see that transformers are bi-lateral & can be used as either a step up or step down.
It has been advised that i use no more than 12v into the primary winding resulting in no more that 240v from the secondary winding using it as a step up transformer.

Is there a reason or explanation why no more than 12v can be applied to the primary winding to achieve a higher secondary winding output?

The primary of a transformer is designed to handle the reflected load current and magnetization current.

The secondary is designed to handle only the load current.

If you turn it around, you need to derate it.

 

[MATLABdude]

Ok, looking further into it i see that transformers are bi-lateral & can be used as either a step up or step down.
It has been advised that i use no more than 12v into the primary winding resulting in no more that 240v from the secondary winding using it as a step up transformer.

Is there a reason or explanation why no more than 12v can be applied to the primary winding to achieve a higher secondary winding output?

I can think of two possible problems with this:
1) The secondary winding is made from wire that is of too small a gauge to carry the amount of current you're looking to feed in, and it burns up

2) The voltage on the primary is so high that there's arcing through the insulation of the wires in the winding. For many transformers, the wire has only a very thin insulation which can be easily arced across.

 

[cabraham]

Any xfmr can be reversed if you observe the voltage and current limitations. If the unit inputs 240V and outputs 12V, then it can be reversed, i.e. it will operate fine with 12V input across the low voltage winding, and output 240V across the high voltage winding.

The current ratings for each winding remain as spec'd.

 

[Phrak]

Any xfmr can be reversed if you observe the voltage and current limitations.* If the unit inputs 240V and outputs 12V, then it can be reversed, i.e. it will operate fine with 12V input across the low voltage winding, and output 240V across the high voltage winding.The current ratings for each winding remain as spec'd.

Not so fast. An unloaded transformer draws current. This is called the magnetization current. You might be hard pressed to actually come up with a transformer that will self distruct, but in principle the magnetization current could exceed the rated current.

This leads to excessive heating of the core. This could cause the saturation flux density to rise past the saturation knee which leads to an increase in the magnetization current. The rising current adds to more core heating and could result in divergent thermal run-away.

At a guess, I'd think a wall wart with AC output is a good candidate for this sort of failure. Hook two of them up, back to back, and see if the output is 120 VAC, and what gets hot over time.

 

[cabraham]

----- Phrak quote

Not so fast. An unloaded transformer draws current. This is called the magnetization current. You might be hard pressed to actually come up with a transformer that will self distruct, but in principle the magnetization current could exceed the rated current.

This leads to excessive heating of the core. This could cause the saturation flux density to rise past the saturation knee which leads to an increase in the magnetization current. The rising current adds to more core heating and could result in divergent thermal run-away.

At a guess, I'd think a wall wart with AC output is a good candidate for this sort of failure. Hook two of them up, back to back, and see if the output is 120 VAC, and what gets hot over time.

----- end quote


Begging to differ. First of all, I am well aware of what magnetizing current is. I designed xfms for a company well known for them. Just out of curiosity, have you designed xfmrs? If not, it's no big deal.

When you say the Imag exceeds the rated current, my first reaction is "run that by me again please!" Imag is typically around 5% of the rated load current. If the mag current was excessive, which it isn't, how does runaway take place? An increase in current through the windings incurs a larger IR drop due to the winding resistance. This results in a lower voltage impressed across the primary. The flux will not run away, but decrease with this condition.

If a xfmr is rated at 240V in, 12V out, then the high side, which has thinner wire, and carries lower current, carries an Imag around 5% of rated load. If we instead excite the low side, 12V as the primary, the exciting current times the turns changes very little for the same frequency. The flux is related to volts per turn so that 240V across 240 turns results in approx. the same flux as 12V across 12 turns. The N*Imag will be very close to the original in amp-turns. The core runs at the same temp, and the low side windings run around the same temp, as they are wound with heavier wire, carry more current, but again, sized for full load which is much greater than the Imag.

Regarding the wall wart, I've never seen one with ac output. The output is always, AFAIK, rectified into dc. If you connect 2 units back to back, of course the 2nd unit gets hot. Connecting dc across the 2nd units' winding will burn it up. No debate there.

This is pretty basic stuff. If I've erred I welcome and appreciate correction, but we're talking about transformers here. These are well documented and have been in use since the latter part of the 19th century. There are few mysteries involving xfmrs. BR.

Claude

 

[Phrak]

Nice to meet you Cabraham! Yah, I have designed transformers and inductors, and all that for switched mode power. It's nice to know someone else that does. I'll have to get back to you later, on this stuff. I've run out of time, and that was a nice long post.

 

[berkeman]

cabraham is correct. The 240Vrms/12Vrms transformer can be run backwards, but with 12Vrms input on the 12V side, not 240Vrms input on the 12V side.

I've seen AC/AC wall warts, but they're not very common. If you did hook them up back to back, you'd get close to 120Vrms (or whatever the input voltage was) out the far side, but it would be somewhat lower due to transformer losses.

 

[burnit]

Thanks to all for there input as i have a clearer picture of what i needed to know.

Thanks Again

 

[Phrak]

cabraham is correct. The 240Vrms/12Vrms transformer can be run backwards, but with 12Vrms input on the 12V side, not 240Vrms input on the 12V side.

I've seen AC/AC wall warts, but they're not very common. If you did hook them up back to back, you'd get close to 120Vrms (or whatever the input voltage was) out the far side, but it would be somewhat lower due to transformer losses.

Unloaded, it would be. To my dismay, when searching for bootstrap methods to power a switch mode supply high side, I found that low current transformers---under 50 mA--are terribly lossy. I couldn't find a supplier that advertized anything less at the time. I needed something like 5 or 10 mA. Anyway, the lower the rated current, the worse they become. Half the wire crosssection must be taken up with enamel! That, and the apparent limit in wire size of #40, seems to be why they didn't exist.

You can imagine what happens when the enamel thickness remains constant, while wire size decrease.

 

[Phrak]

Hey, Claude. I see nothing wrong with your analysis. The 5% value is good to know, too. So if Burnit is using some typical transformer, he only needs to derate 5% or so.

I was not so concerned with copper lose, but hysteresis loss in the core; though it probable won't lead to divergent heating either, as I'd supposed it might.

What do you know about hysteresis loss in soft iron as a function of temperature?

 

[Pumblechook]

Quick scan through the posts... I would agree with those who say it would not work... Real transformers have a complex equavlent circuits far removed form the simplistic voltage/current in/out governed by the turns ratio...due to winding resistance..eddy current losses.. They are designed for specific voltages in and out and should only be used outside that voltage with care.

 

[Phrak]

Quick scan through the posts... I would agree with those who say it would not work... Real transformers have a complex equavlent circuits far removed form the simplistic voltage/current in/out governed by the turns ratio...due to winding resistance..eddy current losses.. They are designed for specific voltages in and out and should only be used outside that voltage with care.

I should do what I see fit. I don't tend to find comfort in when others tell me what can't be done. It usually just means a desire to maintaining a position of authority threatened by initiative.

 

[Pumblechook]

Why ask for advice then?

If you do try it feed it via a low value fuse or circuit breaker or both.

I would think a 12 secondary used as a primary would have too few turns ..too low an inductance for 240 Volts.. The 240 primary used as a secondary may not handle higher voltages anyway. A proper step-up transformer would have a primary similar to your 240/12 step down but a secondary with many many more turns which could handle the high voltage...e.g..HT transformer used in a microwave oven.

 

[Phrak]

Why ask for advice then?

Oh, ok. I won't ask for advice then.

 

[Phrak]

cabraham, what happened to you?

 

[Proton Soup]

Thanks to all for there input as i have a clearer picture of what i needed to know.

Thanks Again

just to be completely clear, NO, you can not use this as a step-up xfmr to get 4800 VAC. the odds of something bad happening to property or persons are pretty high. if you're going to experiment with high voltage, then buy/salvage parts that are rated for it. even if it "works", you may find yourself getting shocked because of voltage that leaked to the case or somewhere else you didn't anticipate.

 

[cabraham]

cabraham, what happened to you?

I'm still alive and well. I haven't had time to research your question about hysteresis vs. temp. My advice would be to do what I do. Such data is very non-linear and does not lend itself to classic mathematical methods. For this makers of magnetic materials rely on empirical data.

Visit the site of Arnold Engr., Ferroxcube, Philips, etc. and download the data sheets. Hysteresis loss, as well as other loss components are generally given in the form of graphs. The influence of frequency, temp, etc. are usually graphed.

Dr. Ridley has some good info in his papers. Visit the "Switching Power Magazine" website, and download Dr. Ray Ridley's papers on transformer core losses.

Off the top of my head, that is my advice. Again, this type of info is not generally obtainable with an equation. Any equation developed is usually limited to narrow conditions. BR.

Claude

 

[burnit]

Hi All,

I connected the Transformer for step up use & carefully increased the voltage.
First up i noticed that connected this way with the Variac control knob on the 0 position there was a leakage of 7v through the variac for some reason?
There is no voltage leakage at all when things are connected as a step down Transformer or the Variac connected to other things.
The Variac is very touchy when using the transformer as a step up & a fraction of a turn delivers the 12v input or 240v out as suggested--it is very touchy indeed.

I let it sit on about 9v for a minute or two with no load & clearly the variac starts to get a bit to warm so i disconnected things, not sure why this is happening?

 

[Phrak]

How many VA is your transformer? Alternately, what's the output amperage rating of the transformer?

 

[burnit]

I was told it was 12v 100amp output when i purchased it , i went to a motor rewinder near me to get them to check it out for me & they believe it is 12v 150amp output.

There are 5 input Terminals on it as well 0 100v 115v 220v 240v

 

[Phrak]

I was told it was 12v 100amp output when i purchased it , i went to a motor rewinder near me to get them to check it out for me & they believe it is 12v 150amp output.

There are 5 input Terminals on it as well 0 100v 115v 220v 240v

According to cabraham the transformer draws about 5% of 100 amps unloaded in the configuration you've got it--driving the secondary side. Anyway, this means the variac is loaded with about 60 Watts. What's it rating?

Sometime or other you should tell us what you're line voltage is. 120 or 220, 240 VAC??

 

[burnit]

Gday Phrak,

Supply voltage is 240v AC & the Variac is rated at 10 A as mentioned.

 

[Phrak]

Beats me what's going on. Crank it up and tell me what smokes first.

You do realize that your output can't exceed much more than 240 VAC before over-voltaging the transformer, right?

 

[uart]

Gday Phrak,

Supply voltage is 240v AC & the Variac is rated at 10 A as mentioned.

Burnit, given that the transformer VA rating is not exactly known the magnetizing current referred to the 12V winding could be close to 10 Amps. Say the rated 12V current was 150Amps and the magnetizing reactance was 15 (pu) then you're looking at 10 amps already. In other words you're variac might be close to it's ratings just supplying the excitation current. It might get a little warm but things do that when you're running close to rated current.

Can you measure the magnetizing current (that is, the current being drawn by the 12V winding when the 240V winding is open circuit). A true RMS ammeter would be best because the current might have a lot third harmonic and this will cause an ordinary ammeter to slightly under-read. Any measurement would be better than nothing though.