Stupid question relating to electric induction

AI Thread Summary
The discussion revolves around the principles of electromagnetic induction and the behavior of magnetic fields in relation to permanent magnets and coils. It clarifies that a permanent magnet does not induce a current in a coil unless there is relative motion, as current is generated only when the magnetic field changes. Participants emphasize the importance of understanding that a magnetic field is produced by aligned atomic magnetic moments rather than a continuous electron flow within the magnet. They also suggest conducting simple experiments to observe these principles firsthand, reinforcing that careful experimentation is crucial for accurate understanding. Overall, the conversation highlights the need for a solid grasp of electromagnetic theory and encourages further study and experimentation.
  • #51
ZapperZ said:
How useful and accurate is this? I have several cylindrical bar magnet in my class lab, and they ALL have different strengths even though they all have identical size.

Zz.
You can measure them, i.e. the ## \vec{B} ## from them, with a meter that measures magnetic field strength, if you assume the magnetization ## \vec{M} ## is uniform. That's basically what the students did in the "link" of post 49. You can also use a boy scout compass to do some ballpark measurements=see post 21 of the "link" in post 49. ## \\ ## And how accurate is the assumption that ## \vec{M} ## is uniform? I can't readily quantify it, but I think it is quite good. :wink::smile: ## \\ ## Much of my working years were spent doing electro-optic experiments, but had I been doing all kinds of experiments with magnets and devices employing magnets, I think think I would have found it equally exciting.
 
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  • #52
Charles Link said:
You can measure them, i.e. the ## \vec{B} ## from them, with a meter that measures magnetic field strength, if you assume the magnetization ## \vec{M} ## is uniform. That's basically what the students did in the "link" of post 49. You can also use a boy scout compass to do some ballpark measurements=see post 21 of the "link" in post 49. ## \\ ## And how accurate is the assumption that ## \vec{M} ## is uniform? I can't readily quantify it, but I think it is quite good. :wink::smile:

But you were selling this model as the ability to predict the magnetic field strength of a cylindrical magnet! If you have to measure them, then what's the point of the model?

Again, you have not given me any usefulness of this model.

Zz.
 
  • #53
ZapperZ said:
But you were selling this model as the ability to predict the magnetic field strength of a cylindrical magnet! If you have to measure them, then what's the point of the model?

Again, you have not given me any usefulness of this model.

Zz.
If you would read the "link" of post 49, you measure the ## \vec{B} ## to compute the ## \vec{M} ##. You just need to measure ## \vec{B} ## at one location on-axis at some distance, and from there, the model will give you predictions of what ## \vec{B} ## is everywhere.
 
  • #54
Charles Link said:
If you would read the "link" of post 49, you measure the ## \vec{B} ## to compute the ## \vec{M} ##. You just need to measure ## \vec{B} ## at one location on-axis at some distance, and from there, the model will give you predictions of what ## \vec{B} ## is everywhere.

I have a better idea. Take out the Hall Probe and measure B where you want it. Done!

Zz.
 
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  • #55
sophiecentaur said:
But would you discuss light from a distant star in terms of a string of little bullets arriving?
I don't understand your enmity toward the concept. If using a (cooled) high sensitivity cameras for either astrometry (which I haven't done) or fluorimetry (which I have ), the statistics are exactly like shotgun pellets impinging.
 
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  • #56
hutchphd said:
I don't understand your enmity toward the concept. If using a (cooled) high sensitivity cameras for either astrometry (which I haven't done) or fluorimetry (which I have ), the statistics are exactly like shotgun pellets impinging.
I think there is some very good physics in this model, just as there is some very good physics in the magnetic surface current calculations. Neither description is a perfect description, but I think they both have considerable merit.
 
  • #57
Charles Link said:
I think there is some very good physics in this model, just as there is some very good physics in the magnetic surface current calculations. Neither description is a perfect description, but I think they both have considerable merit.

Actually, no. There are usefulness in the photon model. You see it in photoemission description, etc. I’m still waiting for you to show the usefulness of the surface current model. Where is it used as extensively as photons?

Zz.
 
  • #58
ZapperZ said:
Actually, no. There are usefulness in the photon model. You see it in photoemission description, etc. I’m still waiting for you to show the usefulness of the surface current model. Where is it used as extensively as photons?

Zz.
Besides using a Hall meter probe, how do you @ZapperZ compute the magnetic field ## \vec{B} ## and/or the magnetization ## \vec{M} ## from a permanent magnet? ## \\ ## Do you use the magnetic "pole" model with ## \vec{B}=\mu_o \vec{H} +\vec{M} ## ? ## \\ ## That also works equally well in getting the same results, but it doesn't explain the underlying physics as well as the magnetic surface current model.
 
  • #59
Charles Link said:
Besides using a Hall meter probe, how do you @ZapperZ compute the magnetic field ## \vec{B} ## and/or the magnetization ## \vec{M} ## from a permanent magnet? ## \\ ## .

I don’t, and neither do you, because you had to use an experimental measurement FIRST to “calibrate” the field before using the model. If I tell you that I’m buying a set of cylindrical magnets with such-and-such a dimension, can you, a priori, tell me the magnetic field strength? Nope!

That is why I said earlier that if I need to know the field, I measure it!

Zz.
 
  • #60
You can measure the magnetic field ## \vec{B} ##, (externally), but how do you then compute ## \vec{M} ## or ## \vec{B} ## internally? It's not always possible to put a Hall probe inside the magnet. ## \\ ## The magnetic "pole" model and the magnetic "surface current" model are the two ways that I know of to get the internal results. I think they are both quite useful.
 
  • #61
Charles Link said:
You can measure the magnetic field ## \vec{B} ##, (externally), but how do you then compute ## \vec{M} ## or ## \vec{B} ## internally? It's not always possible to put a Hall probe inside the magnet. ## \\ ## The magnetic "pole" model and the magnetic "surface current" model are the two ways that I know of to get the internal results. I think they are both quite useful.

Again, where is this iseful and how accurate is this when compared to the result from quantum magnetism, so much so that it is used as extensively as the photon model? That is what I’ve been asking. It is one thing to propose a model, it is another to show that it is useful enough that a lot of areas make use of it. I can show plenty of examples for the photon model.

Zz.
 
  • #62
In general, I think E&M has been de-emphasized in the college curriculum over the last 40 years. The magnetostatics is largely a classical description, but I also think that it is getting pushed on the backburner and is largely ignored by many of those in academia. The higher priorities are given to other areas, so that I think presently there are very few who even specialize in E&M.
 
  • #63
Charles Link said:
In general, I think E&M has been de-emphasized in the college curriculum over the last 40 years. The magnetostatics is largely a classical description, but I also think that it is getting pushed on the backburner and is largely ignored by many of those in academia. The higher priorities are given to other areas, so that I think presently there are very few who even specialize in E&M.

First of all, you are admitting here that it doesn’t have an extensive usefulness. Let’s get that out of the way first.

Secondly, if you look into the field of Accelerator Physics, the most important topic of that field IS classical E&M! It is the de facto requirement that everyone specializing in this discipline go through and understand it at the level of Jackson. In fact, look up the curriculum at any USPAS program and see how classical E&M permeates in almost every topic in this discipline. So no, it is not ignored in academia.

Yet, we make no use of the surface current model!

Zz.
 
  • #64
And here is a transformer with an air gap https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/absolute-value-of-magnetization.915111/#post-5767374 where MMF equations that arise from Ampere's law in the form ## \oint H \cdot dl=I ## is used to solve this problem. ## \\ ## This form of Ampere's law is most readily understood by using ## \nabla \times M=\mu_o J_m ##. (Starting with ## B=\mu_o H+M ## and taking curl of both sides. Also using ## \nabla \times B=\mu_o J_{total} ##, where ## J_{total}=J_{free}+J_m ##).## \\ ## This very same equation, ## \nabla \times M=\mu_o J_m ##, (and using Stokes theorem at the surface boundary), is one way in which the magnetic surface current per unit length ## K_m= \frac{M \times \hat{n}}{\mu_o } ## can be derived. ## \\ ## J.D. Jackson uses the magnetic pole model. The E&M professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana, who I have had some correspondence with,(he has taught E&M there for 20+ years now), tells me he actually had J.D. Jackson as an E&M instructor when he was at Berkeley, but he thinks Griffiths' book, which introduces magnetic surface currents, is a better textbook than J.D. Jackson's. ## \\ ## He also tells me they most often don't even present the magnetic pole model to the undergraduate physics students. Instead, they now teach them the magnetic surface current model.
 
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  • #65
Charles Link said:
And here is a transformer with an air gap https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/absolute-value-of-magnetization.915111/#post-5767374 where MMF equations that arise from Ampere's law in the form ## \oint H \cdot dl=I ## is used to solve this problem. ## \\ ## This form of Ampere's law is most readily understood by using ## \nabla \times M=\mu_o J_m ##. (Starting with ## B=\mu_o H+M ## and taking curl of both sides. Also using ## \nabla \times B=\mu_o J_{total} ##, where ## J_{total}=J_{free}+J_m ##).## \\ ## This very same equation, ## \nabla \times M=\mu_o J_m ##, (and using Stokes theorem at the surface boundary), is one way in which the magnetic surface current per unit length ## K_m= \frac{M \times \hat{n}}{\mu_o } ## can be derived. ## \\ ## J.D. Jackson uses the magnetic pole model. The E&M professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana, who I have had some correspondence with,(he has taught E&M there for 20+ years now), tells me he actually had J.D. Jackson as an E&M instructor when he was at Berkeley, but he thinks Griffiths' book, which introduces magnetic surface currents, is a better textbook than J.D. Jackson's. ## \\ ## He also tells me they most often don't even present the magnetic pole model to the undergraduate physics students. Instead, they now teach them the magnetic surface current model.

And this is extensively used and is useful ... where, exactly?

You keep showing me what it can calculate (I’d rather say “estimate”) stuff, without showing me the areas of study where this model has been shown to be indespensibly useful! If you are going to hitch a ride with the photon model, then you must have evidence that this is as equally used as the photon model.

I have come across many models and ideas that have very little usefulness. They too can calculate stuff. It it doesn’t mean that they have any bearing on what we do and use nowadays. This is what I’ve been asking repeatedly, and you have essentially given a defeatist acknowledgment of its lack of use by lumping in the apparent discarding of classical E&M, the latter I’ve shown to be completely false.

Your insistence on pushing this model seems to verge on a solution waiting for a problem.

Zz.
 
  • #66
hutchphd said:
I don't understand your enmity toward the concept. If using a (cooled) high sensitivity cameras for either astrometry (which I haven't done) or fluorimetry (which I have ), the statistics are exactly like shotgun pellets impinging.
Charles Link said:
I think there is some very good physics in this model,
It's appropriate where it's appropriate. It is pretty nonsensical to discuss a photon 'travelling from a distant star' because there is no 'place' it can be at any time; it has no extent in the meaningful sense of the word. Otoh, Photon Interaction between an EM wave and a material object makes total sense as the Energy and the Momentum are quantised. So the idea that the light can be regarded as little bullets on the way is not only flawed but it is attractive and communicates a misconception to others. It is hard but one should accept it rather than try to over-simplify it. And why not? Have we not progressed since the Corpuscular Theory of Light?
There are many examples where shotgun pellets do not explain what we see. My' enmity' only extends to its mis-use when inappropriate.
 
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  • #67
ZapperZ said:
Your insistence on pushing this model seems to verge on a solution waiting for a problem.
Have you not done many E&M calculations using the magnetic pole model? The problem with the magnetic pole model is that you get magnetic fields ## H ## from the magnetic poles when there are no electrical charges in motion. The surface current model gets the same answer for the magnetic field ## B ## , but instead of doing what seems to be mathematical machinery without any underlying physics, it uses Biot-Savart along with the magnetic surface currents to compute the vector ## B ##. ## \\ ## As an undergraduate and graduate student, I got where I could work the pole model calculations (as J.D. Jackson, and Pugh and Pugh present them) quite well, but the mathematical machinery that results in ## H ## as being a second type of magnetic field is flawed, and calculations with the surface current model show how ## H ## comes about. The equation ## B=\mu_o H+M ## suggests that the magnetization ## M ## makes a local contribution to ## B ##. The surface current calculations show this apparent local contribution to ## B ## has non-local origins. ## \\ ## To see this, you would need to work through some magnetic surface current calculations in depth, like the case of a cylindrical magnet of uniform magnetization, and compute the ## B ## inside the material. The surface currents for the cylindrical magnet have the same geometry as those of a solenoid. If you were to work through calculations such as this in detail, I think some of your skepticism might start to be reduced.
 
  • #68
And a calculation of much interest is the uniformly magnetized cylinder of arbitrary radius ## r=a ## and finite length ## L ##. ## \\ ## Without knowing the answer beforehand, you might even think that the surface current calculations might get a different answer for ##\vec{B} ## than what the magnetic pole model computes. ## \\ ## To simplify the problem, you can make it into a cylinder of semi-infinite length with a single pole, (magnetic surface charge density ## \sigma_m=\vec{M} \cdot \hat{n}=M ##), on the end face (at ## z=0 ##) and compare the magnetic field ## \vec{B} ## from both calculations.## \\ ## The answers are either going to agree, or one of the models is incorrect. ## \\ ## In the plane (## z=0 ## ) containing the single pole for the cylinder of semi-infinite length, the magnetic pole model gives ## B_z=0 ## at ## z=0 ## for ## r>a ## by inspection, ## \\ ## (because ## \vec{B} ## must point radially outward, and will simply have a ## B_r ## component in cylindrical coordinates). (And note that ## B=\mu_o H ## outside of the cylinder, because ## M=0 ## outside of the cylinder). ## \\ ## This makes for a simple test case. ## \\ ## Will the surface current Biot-Savart integral for the semi-infinite cylinder give ## B_z=0 ## in this entire plane for ## r>a ## ? ## \\ ## I was very surprised at the result when I did the computation of this integral in 2010. ## \\ ## For this complete calculation see: https://v1.overleaf.com/read/kdhnbkpypxfk ## \\ ## These calculations with the surface current model make the "pole" model much more complete. ## \\ ## ........................... ## \\ ## As a challenge for anyone who wants to attempt it, try writing out the expression for ## \vec{B} ## in the plane ## z=0 ## for this semi-infinite cylinder case using the surface currents, and solving the integrals for ## B_z ##, ##B_r ##, and ## B_{\phi} ##. If you want to see the calculations in detail, instead of trying them yourself, they are done in the "link" given just above.
 
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  • #69
I'm not sure that I understand what this debate is about, and it's hard to read the entire thread. Since @Charles Link has asked in a PM, let me try to put in another point of view to the debate.

First of all, it's of course clear that anything to understand about the "matter part of electromagnetism" from first principles has to do with quantum theory. For everyday matter in many cases you can use non-relativistic many-body theory, which simplifies some things, particularly if it comes to spin, because spin separates from position and momentum observables in the sense that in non-relativistic quantum physics spin is an additional angular momentum commuting with position and momentum observables. Thus you have a pretty simple concept of total angular momentum as the sum of orbital and spin angular momentum (the only technical problem being the understanding of this sum in terms of Clebsch-Gordan coefficients and all that, which is a somewhat more complicated topic of the QM 1 or maybe QM 2 lecture).

The closest intuitive picture of spin in classical physics are twofold: (a) the spin, i.e., intrinsic rotation of a "rigid body" as part of it's total angular momentum and (b) the magnetic moment of current distributions in a compact region of space seen from a far distance, so that the extension of the region can be negelected compared to the length scale where the magnetic field varies significantly. The latter picture is the one I think is most intuitive for introducing spin in the QM 1 lecture (this I've just done before Christmas in my theoretical-physics lecture for high school-teacher students, and I think it has been quite well understood).

Of course, one must emphasize that these are pictures, and the only correct description we have today is quantum mechanics. And all I could do in my QM 1 lecture is to thoroughly discuss the Stern-Gerlach experiment using quantum theory and only quantum theory in an idealized approximation for the interactin of an external static magnetic field with an uncharged "particle" with an magnetic moment (of course the historical example with a silver atom is appropriate, but one can also use neutrons as an example of an even more particle-like object too). This is a very interesting example for a quite simple analytically solvable dynamical (!) problem for a measurement process, which to my surprise seems not to be present in the textbook literature. I'm about to write a paper on it for AJP or EuJP as soon as I find the time after the semester.

To understand a permanent magnet, however, is a paradigmatic example for a collective many-body effect (something I cannot teach in a first lecture on quantum mechanics due to lack of time), i.e., you have a collection of spins interacting via their associated magnetic moments, and the most simple models are the often discussed Heisenberg and Ising models. It's an entire plethora to discuss fundamental many-body physics, including the "exchange forces" due to the indistinguishability of (fermionic) particles (microscopic level) and the concept of effective quantum field theory, using the mean-field approximation and spontaneous symmetry breaking of (global) rotational symmetry, leading to an example for Ginzburg-Landau theory etc. etc.

Of course, one can also treat permanent magnets on a completely classical level. Then of course the treatment of the matter part of electromagnetism completely reduces to the use of phenomenological parameters. In the usual E&M lecture one restricts oneself to the "linear-response approximation", which however goes pretty far towards a realistic description of the electromagnetism of macroscopic matter (see the excellent treatment of the subject in Vol. 8 of Landau&Lifshitz). The reason, of course, is that usually the electromagnetic fields imposed on the matter in everyday life are small compared to the inneratomar fields which hold the matter together, over which one "coarse grains" to the relevant macroscopic degrees of freedom.

For a permanent magnet in the most simple model treatment you simply assume some plausible distributions of magnetization (model of a "hard ferromagnet"). Then the task is to solve Maxwell's equations with the appropriate boundary conditions, in the static case for ##\vec{B}## and ##\vec{H}## with the constituent equation ##\vec{B}=\mu_0 (\vec{H}+\vec{M})## (SI units). Since then there are no free (exernal) currents, the Maxwell equations for the static case reduce to
$$\vec{\nabla} \times \vec{H}=0, \quad \vec{\nabla} \cdot \vec{B}=0\; \Rightarrow \; \vec{\nabla} \cdot \vec{H}=-\vec{\nabla} \cdot \vec{M}.$$
One can in this case thus use a scalar potential for ##\vec{H}##, ##\vec{H}=-\vec{\nabla} \phi_m## and then solve for the Poisson equation in the usual way:
$$\phi_m(\vec{x})=\int_{\mathbb{R}^3} \mathrm{d}^3 \vec{x}' \frac{-\vec{\nabla}' \cdot \vec{M}(\vec{x}')}{4 \pi |\vec{x}-\vec{x}'|}.$$
Using Gauss's integral theorem and the fact that at infinity ##\vec{M}## vanishes, one can transform this into the more useful form
$$\phi_m(\vec{x}) = \int_{\mathbb{R}^3} \frac{\vec{M}(\vec{x}') \cdot (\vec{x}-\vec{x}')}{4 \pi |\vec{x}-\vec{x}'|^3} = -\vec{\nabla} \cdot \int_{\mathbb{R}^3} \mathrm{d}^3 \vec{x}' \frac{\vec{M}(\vec{x}')}{|\vec{x}-\vec{x}'|}.$$

Another, equivalent way is to use the vector potential for the magnetic field, $$\vec{B}=\vec{\nabla} \times \vec{A}$$ and
$$\vec{\nabla} \times \vec{H}=\frac{1}{\mu_0} \vec{\nabla} \times \vec{B}-\vec{\nabla} \times \vec{M}=0.$$
Then, imposing the Coulomb-gauge condition ##\vec{\nabla} \cdot \vec{A}=0## one finds
$$\Delta \vec{A}=-\mu_0 \vec{\nabla} \times \vec{M},$$
i.e., the magnetization is equivalent with a current density,
$$\vec{j}_m = \vec{\nabla} \times \vec{M}$$
as far as the magnetic field ##\vec{B}## is concerned.

If you use homogeneous magnetization as a simple model, this effective current reduces to the surface current, corresponding to the jump of the magnetization at the surface of the permanent magnet. Which technique to use to calculate the fields, of course, depends on the problem. Usually the scalar-potential method is more straight forward, because one has not so much problems to struggle with the singulartities of the magnetization and the evaluation of the effective surface current.

You find the example of a homogeneously magnetized sphere, where both methods can be used to evaluate the magnetic field analytically in my lecture notes on E&M for high school-teacher students (in German, but I think with a high enough "equation density" to be understandable also by non-German speakers):

https://th.physik.uni-frankfurt.de/~hees/publ/theo2-l3.pdf (Sect. 3.3.3).
 
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  • #70
#1 no movement = no energy, but a permanent magnet DOES contain energy (the electrons in it that are causing it to have a magnetic field in the first place).

The permanent magnet will not release its energy to the copper coil even it does contain internal energy and equivalent circular current, that is why it is called permanent magnet.
If the permanent magnet dose release its energy then its magnetic field strength have to be reduced and thus can not be named as permanent magnet.

Therefore the current is induced in the copper coil only when the permanent magnetic is moving in or out, in this case the energy is come from the external force to move the permanent magnet instead of the permanent magnet itself.

 
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  • #71
vanhees71 said:
I'm not sure that I understand what this debate is about, and it's hard to read the entire thread. Since @Charles Link has asked in a PM, let me try to put in another point of view to the debate.

Then I'll make it VERY clear for the final time, and then I'm outta this one.

It has NEVER been about the physics and the validity of the derivation of this "surface current", even though there is no such surface current on a permanent magnet. @Charles Link can't seem to get past that. From the very beginning, and in repeated posts here, I've asked for the USEFULNESS of this model.

I remember waaaay back when I was still in college, we had an exercise where we used the electron magnetic moment and its charge, and then, using the electron's classical radius and assuming that it is a sphere, we estimated, based on the magnetic moment, how fast the sphere is spinning. In other words, we had a model that mimic the result. But is this model useful? Just because I was able to derive, using standard theories and equations, at something that has some resemblance of matching some result, is this useful to be used elsewhere?

THAT, from the very beginning, was my question. And as far as I know, the usefulness of this model has not been shown at all! @Charles Link has as much as admitted on the lack of usage of it. All I've been given are these derivations of surface currents and how it ties in with magnetization, etc.. etc, as IF I haven't had my education in classical E&M.

I can show you numerous usage of photon model. I have not been shown numerous usage of the magnet surface current model. PERIOD!

There is also a risk of introducing this model to the general public. It gives them the impression that this surface current on a magnet is real! People have been shown to misunderstand things on something less significant than this. The OP clearly didn't understand basic, classical E&M. And yet, we're piling on him/her something that most of us know doesn't exist, and it is simply the tail end of the dog. But if you look closely at his/her posts, it appears that the tail is wagging the dog!

Let me also be VERY clear on this: If this were a lesson in undergraduate classical E&M (and it often is), I wouldn't have given it a second thought. Heck, I would even teach it myself! But it isn't! And it is presented to people who don't know any better! What you intended is often NOT what the "audience" understood!

I've stated my opinion of this model in this thread, and in the relevant Insight article. It may be ignored as irrelevant if you wish. I have nothing more to add to this.

Zz.
 
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  • #72
Thank you @vanhees71 You helped clarify the quantum mechanical aspects of this problem.
 
  • #73
ZapperZ said:
Then I'll make it VERY clear for the final time, and then I'm outta this one.

It has NEVER been about the physics and the validity of the derivation of this "surface current", even though there is no such surface current on a permanent magnet. @Charles Link can't seem to get past that. From the very beginning, and in repeated posts here, I've asked for the USEFULNESS of this model.
I don't know, why this is a topic to get furious about. As I've shown, it's just one of at least three equivalent ways to calculate macroscopic electromagnetic fields of permanent magnets. Of course, microscopically there's no surface current on a permanent magnet but just a magnetization due to quite interesting collective quantum many-body effects. All this I've tried to explain in my previous posting.

The "surface current model" may be useful or not to calculate the fields, no more no less. As I've also stressed, usually the direct way using the magnetic potential is the most convenient way (usually even not using the "ready-made integrals" but just solving the Poisson equation for the potential directly.
I remember waaaay back when I was still in college, we had an exercise where we used the electron magnetic moment and its charge, and then, using the electron's classical radius and assuming that it is a sphere, we estimated, based on the magnetic moment, how fast the sphere is spinning. In other words, we had a model that mimic the result. But is this model useful? Just because I was able to derive, using standard theories and equations, at something that has some resemblance of matching some result, is this useful to be used elsewhere?
Well, in this case I'd caution my students not to put too much into such "classical-electron models". This was a historically very important issue around 1910-1925, before the now considered correct description of electrons in terms of a quantized Dirac field (or its non-relativistic approximation as a Weyl-Pauli spinor) has been found.

Already the Born-rigid model of a spherical electron of finite extension which, by construction, cannot spin at all, is very complicated, and it's amusing to think about it to learn how much simpler in fact the full perturbative QFT (in this case QED) really is. I'm not aware of any rigorous treatment of a spinning electron which for sure cannot be a Born-rigid body. Maybe one can construct something like this for the pure fun of the academic problem. I don't think that one gets much physical insight about the "nature of the electron" from it.
THAT, from the very beginning, was my question. And as far as I know, the usefulness of this model has not been shown at all! @Charles Link has as much as admitted on the lack of usage of it. All I've been given are these derivations of surface currents and how it ties in with magnetization, etc.. etc, as IF I haven't had my education in classical E&M.

I can show you numerous usage of photon model. I have not been shown numerous usage of the magnet surface current model. PERIOD!
Well, here I am very sceptical. The usage of the "photon model", whatever you mean by this, is causing more trouble than it helps students either. The only "photon model" which doesn't provide conceptual trouble I know of is QED, and you can go a very long way without using photons even in quantum optics. The compromise I've made in my lecture on QM was to use a semi-naive photon picture to introduce the quantum concepts on hand of an example a classical analogon is well-known by the students from the lecture on classical E&M in the previous semester, i.e., the polarization "states" of electromagnetic waves. Then I gave a hand-waving introduction to the notion of "photons" using the "dimmed-classical-laser-light argument" with the caution of course that these are still not the true "single photon states". I'm not sure, whether this is the best concept to introduce beginners with QM, but I found it better than to just use the Stern-Gerlach experiment with spin 1/2 particles, without the possibility to adequately explain spin, which is not possible without the formal structure of QM (and in fact some representation theory of the rotation group).
There is also a risk of introducing this model to the general public. It gives them the impression that this surface current on a magnet is real! People have been shown to misunderstand things on something less significant than this. The OP clearly didn't understand basic, classical E&M. And yet, we're piling on him/her something that most of us know doesn't exist, and it is simply the tail end of the dog. But if you look closely at his/her posts, it appears that the tail is wagging the dog!

Let me also be VERY clear on this: If this were a lesson in undergraduate classical E&M (and it often is), I wouldn't have given it a second thought. Heck, I would even teach it myself! But it isn't! And it is presented to people who don't know any better! What you intended is often NOT what the "audience" understood!

I've stated my opinion of this model in this thread, and in the relevant Insight article. It may be ignored as irrelevant if you wish. I have nothing more to add to this.

Zz.
If it's about popularization of science, there's no use of this surface-current concept at all. I think, in this case, it's much simpler to introduce the idea that magnetic moments are something elementary, i.e., part of the properties of elementary particles. Of course, there's no way to observe the magnetic moment of the only elementary particle we have easily at hand, namely the electron (that's a famous idea by Bohr, who estimated correctly that a Stern-Gerlach experiment with electrons is practically impossible). The next-best example, where it can be directly observed is the neutron. I think there have indeed been Stern-Gerlach experiments with neutrons, but I'd have to look for the papers in google scholar myself.

Then it might also be possible to explain, how a macroscopic permanent magnet comes about due to the spontaneous orientation of these elementary magnets (although it's a collective phenomenon and the electrons making up the macrosopic magnetization are in fact in-medium quasiparticles rather than free electrons, and it's maybe also hard to explain the exchange-force concept which is crucial at least for the Heisenberg model of ferromagnetism).

I think, in fact, the most difficult task in physics education is to explain things on an understandable popularized level "as simple as possible but not simpler than possible" (Einstein). As I said, indeed, for this purpose the surface-currents of the Ampere model are clearly not a good idea to describe a permanent magnet to the general public.
 
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  • #74
atommo said:
Magnetic fields result from moving electrons. That indicates that a permanent magnet has electrons inside it moving in a circular fashion to produce poles (essentially an electromagnet but the material itself retains that flow).

That model doesn't account for that magnetic field. Atomic electrons are indeed a source of a magnetic field, but that magnetic field cannot be accounted for by the motion of the electron.

Now the thing that I'm wondering about is this: You can put an iron core inside a copper coil- run electricity through the coil and you induce a magnetic field in the iron (by causing the electrons in the iron to get dragged along by the current in the copper coil in that same direction).

The electrons don't get "dragged along".

Those electrons have an orbital magnetic moment and an intrinsic magnetic moment. That is the model used to explain the interaction.
 
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@ZapperZ and @vanhees71 : One simple use for the mathematics of the magnetic surface current model: By the fact that the magnetic surface currents of a uniformly magnetized cylinder (of finite length) have the same geometry as those of a solenoid, it immediately allows for the use of the magnetic pole model to determine what the magnetic field is from a solenoid of finite length, without needing to do extensive Biot-Savart calculations with the currents of the solenoid. ## \\ ## In addition, from this pole model analogy, the result emerges very readily, (neglecting the small effects from the far end face), that 1/2 of the ## \vec{B} ## flux lines emerge out of the end face of the solenoid, and 1/2 of them emerge before the end face. ## \\ ## (Many years ago, I saw this last result mentioned without proof in a professor's notes that he handed out to our undergraduate class, and it said the result is proven in advanced E&M classes.) ## \\ ## As it turns out, with the magnetic pole model analogy, the proof is quite simple. :smile:
 
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