The Absurb Trinity Doctrine - embarassament of theology

  • Thread starter Saint
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  • #1
Saint
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A pastor preached that trinity is very logical, he said, if god was one person, after incarnation to become man, who will control the universe? Therefore, trinity solves this problem, the Son became flesh, and the Father was still in heaven to control and uphold the universe. Very logic, he said!

This is bullsheet!

First, let me tell you what is automation.
I graduated engineering, worked in factory before, dealt with automated machines like CNC. With microprocessor, sensors, PLC and all sorts of things, a machine can be automated and run on itself without supervision after you have set its settings. You can walked away to do other things and let the machine continue to operate.

So, the christians claim that their God is OMNIPOTENT, he can do whatever possible, nothing is impossible with him.
We have seen that even the fragile human (compared to the so-called God) can invent and make a machine to run automatically, why not God is able to incarnate as man, at the same time enable the universe to operate on itself? He is omnipotent, can he do that? If can, then trinity is false. If can not, then God is not omnipotent.

I read books, talked with christians, until now, no books, no christian can fully explain the trinity logically to me.
Some say trinity is like water, can be solid ice, liquid water, and gaseous vapor, after all, it is still H2O.

Ha ha, the word trinity is not vividly mentioned in bible, when people thought more about its teaching, inquired about the nature of Jesus, then the council of christianity decided to enact Creed to incorporate trinity into their faith. Just a man-made theory based on the ambiguity of bible.





 

Answers and Replies

  • #2
Hurkyl
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You can walked away to do other things and let the machine continue to operate.

But for how long?


So, the christians claim that their God is OMNIPOTENT, he can do whatever possible, nothing is impossible with him.

Half right. Omnipotence is the power to do anything possible. Any other definition is simply nonsensical.


Just a man-made theory based on the ambiguity of bible.

So you have a problem with man-made theories?
 
  • #3
pelastration
162
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Trinity logic

Originally posted by Saint

I read books, talked with christians, until now, no books, no christian can fully explain the trinity logically to me.
Some say trinity is like water, can be solid ice, liquid water, and gaseous vapor, after all, it is still H2O.
http://www.mu6.com/paradox_religions.html
 
  • #4
Royce
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I think that the pastor over simplified it somewhat. IMO the Trinity are facets of the one God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Not unlike the fact that I am a husband, father and grandfather amoung other things. They are each different manifestations of the same being with different functions and properties. I personally don't believe that Jesus, while a son of God, is/was not the Son of the Trinity; but, that is purely a personal belief. If that is the case there would be know conflict of purpose.
 
  • #5
plus
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Originally posted by Hurkyl

So you have a problem with man-made theories?


When some people are claiming they are divine, then I have a problem.
 
  • #6
ray b
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where does JC claim to "BE" god in the bible?

son of man is the title he used

trinity is a very strange idea
1 does that mean when JC prayed he prayed to himself?
2 when god spoke to JC and others at the river saying "behold my son...ect" then he was speaking of and to himself?
3 was it really nessary for JC to leave Earth before the holy spirit could be brought down to man? ie god cann't be two places or things at once??
4 can god, JC, and, the holy spirit all be in one place or at three places at the same time. or just one place for one form at anyone time and the most powerfull being cann't multi-task?
5 is the holy spirit equaly limited to only acting with one person at one time?? or can there be more than one spirit??
6 why is this three godded system called monotheisum, remember we havenot counted the dark side or the angels or mary or saints yet
at minimum it is a dualest system even without a schychiod 3 part godhead+mary =5 major gods plus many minor ones
 
  • #7
TENYEARS
472
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Ok saint here goes bud, the father is the conciousness throughout the universe, the son is all of creation moon sun people dirt tangible and the holy spirt is what make the universe move as modern day physics will soon find out. The names have been changed to protect the innocent. I am catholic, but put it all on the line in 1987 for a real answer. Can you tell the difference between a real answer and carp? Your right most of them don't know, but guess what neither do the phyicacists know what gravity is or universal theory. They hear and parrot just like everyone else. This I know because I know what gravity is. I discovered it for myself in 1991.

It's not about fields of knowlege, it's about people. Some understand and some do not. All have the capacity to understand it, they just have not been put in a position for it to be used. This is reality. So, am I full of carp?

I have a post on the fish or fish bowls or the bowlless fish bowl or is it the bowl without fish. Carp, anyway I was looking for methods of proof your opinion towards the end of the posts would be welcome.
 
  • #8
megashawn
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Ahh, so the Holy Spirit is responsible for all movement in the universe?

Hmm. So when I start my car, step on the accelerator, and the internal combustion engine is not responsible for my movement, but the holy ghost is?

Or even better, A star explodes and sends stuff flying in every direction. It is not the force from the explosion, but the Holy ghost who moves this stuff? Or are you saying that the holy ghost is the explosion?

Hey, maybe that's what Dark Matter is. Genius, pure genius.
 
  • #9
wimms
496
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Why shouting, megashawn? What he means is that laws of nature, math, logic itself is da holy spirit. Try arguing that these things aren't behind it all.
 
  • #10
TENYEARS
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Give da man a cigar. When you make this breakthrough you will understand the other things which are possible in the universe and only then. So you think I am full or carp, I have been eating sardines lately.

There is not supernatural, only natural, but what is natural extends beyond the boundaries of what many think. I don't believe it, I have seen it.
 
  • #11
FZ+
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Originally posted by wimms
Why shouting, megashawn? What he means is that laws of nature, math, logic itself is da holy spirit. Try arguing that these things aren't behind it all.
Try proving it either.
And I don't think that the laws of the universe are equvivalent to the conscious entity we normally understand and define as the holy spirit... Maths certainly does not take the shape of doves and fly onto people's heads. Much as Alexander might disagree. :wink:
 
  • #12
TENYEARS
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Ok, give me a list of things which you would consider proof that there is more than a material world. If you don't I will take it as an admission that you really don't have a mind and it is just a figment of your chemical reaction. I know your a good sport so help me out. I already have one idea, but I consider it to be the best way to prove events which are not neccessarily repeatable.
 
  • #13
FZ+
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TENYEARS: Perform one random and completely acausal act.
 
  • #14
TENYEARS
472
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For one don't use big words on me because I am not sure of the meaning of the word acausal. As for a random act, there has never been one in the history of infinity so not only can't there be one, it would actually disprove what I am saying if I could. Why would a random act prove the existence of anything beyond a chemical reaction or what I am trying to say? What is your logic? It definitely contrdicts mine 100%.

Ah and da light goes on. And that my friends is why I or anyone else should not post logic, read logic or anything else for that matter. Too many people like to eat the frosting and nobody likes cake. First the olives and leaves the cucumbers.
 
  • #15
FZ+
1,599
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Because that is what chemical reactions are. They are a case of simple cause and effect. They are manifestation of material causes leading to what we consider spiritual, or immaterial, like your mind. If you show that there is such a thing as a truly random action (not just too complex for us to find reasons), then this is one thing that chemical reactions or physical reactions don't allow. If this something is acausal, it must be something outside of reductionist science, and materialist knowledge.

However, if you say that you believe that no random acts exist, they you mean that an innate law, a meaningful, understandable laws governs everything. That produces the mind and what we call free will etc. In which case, you are not arguing against a materialist world at all. You are arguing for a materialist world where not everything is found yet. You are in fact arguing for what is the essence of materialist science, wrapped up in a apparently spiritualist wrapper. It's chemical reactions in all but name.
 
  • #16
TENYEARS
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FZ, to parla American? If you use your memory there has never been a single post of mine on either forum which ever contradicted the so called material world. Let me ask you this question, what do you think grace is? The bible is a treaty on life and does not contadict reality. They are unquestionably the same and in accordance with all the rules.

Spirituality is a treaty on physics without expensive equipment uniiversities and large corporate payoffs.

I swear if I wrote down all that happened to me how what triggered it and how I perceived it worked, it would blow your mind and yet it would be accepted because of the nature of it's function and the way it works can be understood. If not that, proved.

Ok, since you have given me responses in the past, I would like to send you a question which I have thought could prove what I speak. You must not speak of it to anyone but can reply to me. If you want the question let me know either message or post here.
 
  • #17
FZ+
1,599
3
Ok, I'm game.

I didn't say you contradict the material world. I say that your idea that materialists are fish or whatever isn't right, because you fail to understand the nature of materialist thought itself. Ie. while you ridicule that the mind can simply be chemical reactions, you miss that chemical reactions are what you then suggest the mind to be.

As to your idea on spirituality... well, it isn't what most people consider it to be.
 
  • #18
TENYEARS
472
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As for the fish thing, I am afraid I do not deny my subconcious when it speaks like this. It was the tankless tank that was relevant.

The last line I never said and makes all the difference. I realized this when I was 15. Kinda, shoots down the old young kid and wisdom thing to some degree. Thing is I knew it was not understood by those around me so I said nothing. This would be respect for ones elders and compasion for those who did not understand. At the same time I also realized that the capability for all to understand was always with them.
 
  • #19
Dark Wing
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bible and the trinity

If anyone has ever actually read the bible, then they have to admit that the concept of a trinity is Absurd. if Jesus was God, then how can he have died? And just saying that his body died, not his mind. soul is not going to cut it here. If Jesus died, he had to DIE, cease to exsist. Otherwise there can be no redemption through his death.

Not only this, but in the bible there was always a nice hirachal structure with God at the top. When it talkes of the kingdom, and the time to come etc, it even has Jesus handing over the kingdom to God, then being rulled over by him. Now, if they were all the one person, how can one part of God rule over another part? it cant! It is just as stupid as to suggest that one form of H2O is more mighty than another form. It is ridiculious.

If you want to argue that Jesus calls himself God many times, i would refer you to the fact that he also tells the whole of Israel that they are all Gods. This concept is widly misused. There is nothing to suggest the existence of the trinity in the bible, it was, as the original post said, created by a council in 450ad. long after the fact.
 
  • #20
The Grimmus
200
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Originally posted by Saint

when people thought more about its teaching, inquired about the nature of Jesus, then the council of christianity decided to enact Creed to incorporate trinity into their faith. Just a man-made theory based on the ambiguity of bible.





Yea i was talking to a christian about this. I think they realized that if god is god and jesus is god then they are polythesitic so they came up with this
 
  • #21
Confusing..I Agree!

Well, I 'm a Christian and I didn't really ever get it. But I have come to some sort of theory that God is not contained to physics because He created the and His "creations" cannot control Him. But this is TRUELY IMPOSSIBLE to understand because we DO have physics, we ARE controlled by laws of science and mathematics. I see God as the greatest Mathmetician of them all. Doesn't add up to you? What if there were no limits or laws?

Also, in response to Dark Wing, Jesus' body died. There's a difference because a soul, in modern terms, is simply life. That's what it has always been! So He CAN DIE and He did experience pain because He was limited to human physics. And one of them is, if someone's torturing you, it's going to hurt (you know, just a little.. :P). And Yes, He did claim to be God.

-CubeX
 
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  • #22
Guybrush Threepwood
520
1
Originally posted by TENYEARS
Your right most of them don't know, but guess what neither do the phyicacists know what gravity is or universal theory. They hear and parrot just like everyone else. This I know because I know what gravity is. I discovered it for myself in 1991.

ok, off topic, but I'm curious. What is it? From your tone I guess it's not the curvature of space-time...or something equivalent.
 
  • #24
Dark Wing
85
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Originally posted by CubeX

Also, in response to Dark Wing, Jesus' body died. There's a difference because a soul, in modern terms, is simply life. That's what it has always been! So He CAN DIE and He did experience pain because He was limited to human physics. And one of them is, if someone's torturing you, it's going to hurt (you know, just a little.. :P). And Yes, He did claim to be God.

-CubeX

Yes, so if jesus was nothing but his body - then jesus died - so "jesus" was defined purely in tearms of the physical, but had the soul of God? so how then can Jesus be in heaven with God?

As far as Jesus claiming he was God - still that's not a problem. He inheritied all of Gods titles during his preachings, and he could call himself God easily as he was Gods representive on earth. manifestaion, if you will. Thats why it was also told to the people in Israel in the Old Testemont that they were all Gods - as they chose to show the charactors that God liked, and do the things that represented God like behaviour.

If Jesus and God are the same, and they are equal, then how can Jesus hand the kingdom over to God, and then be rulled over by him after the 1000 years of the kingdom? You can't have one equal part being reigned over by another equal part.
 
  • #25
Yes, so if jesus was nothing but his body - then jesus died - so "Jesus" was defined purely in terms of the physical, but had the soul of God?

Definition of soul - life

Jesus did take on human form. While taking on this human form, He fully became man. The miracles performed were given to Him by the power of God. Like I said though, physics do not limit God. So why couldn't He have more than one "life force" (if you will,- for lack of a better word)? Now, this here is all in theory, but, Jesus applied to the physics of the physical world while in human form while God (the Father) still did not due to His not being of human form.

so how then can Jesus be in heaven with God?

-Look above! Explain a little more in detail if the above doesn't answer your question.

As far as Jesus claiming he was God - still that's not a problem. He inheritied all of Gods titles during his preachings, and he could call himself God easily as he was Gods representive on earth. manifestaion, if you will. Thats why it was also told to the people in Israel in the Old Testemont that they were all Gods - as they chose to show the charactors that God liked, and do the things that represented God like behaviour.

-Huh? You'd have to point out the referrence to me about that. I've never heard that.

If Jesus and God are the same, and they are equal, then how can Jesus hand the kingdom over to God, and then be rulled over by him after the 1000 years of the kingdom?

-Huh? Please explain the kingdom thing a little more, and please show me the passage about the 1000 yrs. I think that's just a misinterpretation of Rev.

You can't have one equal part being reigned over by another equal part.

-If the law didn't apply...

**COMMENT**
- Isn't it hard to even think about what it would be like to not apply to scientific laws, physics, etc? Man, I can't even begin to imagine!

-CubeX
 
  • #26
jackle
275
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Originally posted by FZ+
TENYEARS: Perform one random and completely acausal act.

The is no causality in anything, it is an illusion.
 
  • #27
TENYEARS
472
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Only for the absolute and not the relative. Separate them for me.
 
  • #28
No response?

-CubeX
 
  • #29
Dark Wing
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CubeX, there are a few objections here - i haven't been on for a while, i do not have access to the internet a lot... so as for your 'no responce' qualm, i apolagise... but let's delve into these a little shall we...



Originally posted by CubeX


Jesus did take on human form. While taking on this human form, He fully became man. The miracles performed were given to Him by the power of God. Like I said though, physics do not limit God. So why couldn't He have more than one "life force" (if you will,- for lack of a better word)? Now, this here is all in theory, but, Jesus applied to the physics of the physical world while in human form while God (the Father) still did not due to His not being of human form.

As far as Jesus claiming he was God - still that's not a problem. He inheritied all of Gods titles during his preachings, and he could call himself God easily as he was Gods representive on earth. manifestaion, if you will. Thats why it was also told to the people in Israel in the Old Testemont that they were all Gods - as they chose to show the charactors that God liked, and do the things that represented God like behaviour.

-Huh? You'd have to point out the referrence to me about that. I've never heard that.

If Jesus and God are the same, and they are equal, then how can Jesus hand the kingdom over to God, and then be rulled over by him after the 1000 years of the kingdom?

-Huh? Please explain the kingdom thing a little more, and please show me the passage about the 1000 yrs. I think that's just a misinterpretation of Rev.

You can't have one equal part being reigned over by another equal part.

-If the law didn't apply...

**COMMENT**
- Isn't it hard to even think about what it would be like to not apply to scientific laws, physics, etc? Man, I can't even begin to imagine!

-CubeX

1. You claim that Jesus simply took on human form, and used gods power to perform his miricales. You also claim that Physics cannot limit Gods power.

In responce to Jesus taking on human form... and becoming fully human till he died... God can break off a part of him, turn it human, that human part is now named Jesus, and can die, although the soul is actully God? If this is what you are saying, then it not physics that God is defining Logic. and God cannot defy logic.

This is a philosophy of religion agrument that the christains put up in defence to agrguments against Gods nature, especily concerning his omnipotence - "God cannot be omnipotent, how can he create an unlifable rock, and then lift it' or "God can't create a square circle". God does not need to defy logic in order to be omnipotent. Infact, there is nothing to suggest that God can break logic. and the scenario you suggest is simply unlogical. especily when there is no need for it to become so complex.

I guess my argument against this is simply along an occoms razor kind of one... if there is a GOd, why make him so complex? Why can't jesus simply be his son, born in flash, and then after being rased from the dead rule at his right hand? why does he have to be part of an explaniable, unlogical trynaty idea that also personifys the holy spirit? you yourself have argued that the holy spirit is simply Gods power. so how can that be a personified part of a 3 in one tryinaty ideal? If you can show me a logical way to explain the fact that jesus died, without going into the whole "it was his soul that survived, and God does not need to obey physics" explanation, then i may have somthing to object to. The way yopu have described the scenario so far is completely meaningless, and you can't discuss it at all, if every time you are faced with a pronbelm you claim that it dosent apply to God as he is simply above such contingent universal features such as physics and logic.

I am not suprised you have not heard of the qoutes of Jesus simply inheriting the titles of God, or the quote on all the israelites being told they were "Gods". this is not the sort of thing that churches usually preach or talk about at all. they don't want you to know stuff like that, cause then you would start to quetion things like the trinity, and since that has become such a grounded part of christianaty in the last few humdred years (yes, they had never heard of the trinity till the council made it up in 450AD) to question the trinity, or even ask for sourses, or even if you rased the point i will raise to your pasters mean church death. I have been throwen out of every church you can name for asking questions about these supposivly unknown passages. The people whop teach you are not interested in the truth or discuission. they don't throw people out for asking sencible bible related religious questions becasue they are knoweldge seekers.

For your last point that talked about the kingdom, and how jesus will hand the kingdom over to God at the end of 1000 years... I will have to wait till next post to give you the exact sections in which to look (i will get them to you, i want to show this to you, its important)

but basicly the kingdom scenario is such ( I have an extended version in the "end of the world" thread if you wish to find it there)

After Jesus died, he took over looking over the world. It has become Jesus's job to prepare the Earth for the coming of the kingdom, to put the kingdom in place (the 'end of days' scenario, and the kingdom that will be after the end of all that we have known so far etc) and he will rule over this kingdom for 1000 years. during this time, Jesus will defeate all adversaries, and the last that he will dystroy is death. after this time, he will hand the kingdom over to God, and he will be ruled over by him. And i restate, you cannot have one part of you rulling over the other part of you. Your comment on how hard it is to imagine things outside the laws of physics, well, of course it is because we have no experience of this. and God does not need to work out side of physics. it is not all a mystery. it may be that God has given us a book full of these amazing mystical wonderings that we caanot understand but must follow blindly, but this seems to be somthing that is agaist every concept with in the bible. I will get those quotes from you. and i highly suggest that you go and show them to your teachers and see what they have to say...

I am after the truth, and discussion, not the blind ignorance of people who wish to believe that everything they have been told about the bible is true...
 
  • #30
Actually, the Council of Nicea was in 325 AD but you have one thing wrong there though, this was not when the church made it up, this was when they put it into a creed. You see, the first traces of this are found to be from 95 AD by Clement. But the word "Trinity" was by Tertian.

There are a lot of traces of the Trinity in the Bible also, but that's not what I'm debating about.

In responce to Jesus taking on human form... and becoming fully human till he died... God can break off a part of him, turn it human, that human part is now named Jesus, and can die, although the soul is actully God? If this is what you are saying, then it not physics that God is defining Logic. and God cannot defy logic.

But, you have to see that while they are one, they still possesses an individuality of their own. That is what makes this all confusing at times.

So Jesus did not break away from God, He was not just some piece of God that just flew off down onto earth, He was an individual. Now, since no one has seen the face of God and lived, we can clearly see that Jesus needed to be incarnated into human form. And I am not saying that Jesus did or did not have His own power, but I am saying that He prayed to God before He performed the miracles. Like the feeding of the 5,000. That's just one example, but miracles did not only happen this way. Most of the time it was because of the person's faith that they were healed.

Also, remember, soul is life. Your life is your soul.

If you do not apply to anything, then why logic? Why does God have to apply to logic? Did not man think of logic? Why would God be ruled by a man-made thought.

This is a philosophy of religion agrument that the christains put up in defence to agrguments against Gods nature, especily concerning his omnipotence - "God cannot be omnipotent, how can he create an unlifable rock, and then lift it' or "God can't create a square circle". God does not need to defy logic in order to be omnipotent. Infact, there is nothing to suggest that God can break logic. and the scenario you suggest is simply unlogical. especily when there is no need for it to become so complex.

Now, for the unliftable rock statement, you know as well as I do that this one whas been answered so many times, it's not funny. Basically, you should consider what I said above the quote. But I do have 2 questions for you. If the rock was unliftable, how would you know it? If the circle was square, how would you know? Have you ever seen one before? Just a little thought for you!

If you can show me a logical way to explain the fact that jesus died, without going into the whole "it was his soul that survived, and God does not need to obey physics" explanation, then i may have somthing to object to.

Remember, your life is your soul. Now, since you posted this, have you heard of someone dieing and then be brought back to life before? I know you have. I think that 20 minutes is the max recorded though.

But since Jesus was in human form, he DID apply to death. He could die, but the matter is, death was made because of man in the Garden. It was because of sin, correct? Well, did Jesus ever sin? God cannot sin, it is not in His nature.(This statement is going to get a lot from you, I know ). So, in believing that there is a heaven and a hell and that our souls go to either place, we must believe that the same accounted for Him. Now, you might be saying, how can a soul go anywhere? Well, you'd have to die to tell me!
So basically, it's that life leaves the physical body and moves on to either place.

And also, I have heard every-single one of those. You don't have to bring them up. I've been doing this type of thing for 2 years now.

-CubeX
 
  • #31
Guybrush Threepwood
520
1
Originally posted by CubeX
Remember, your life is your soul. Now, since you posted this, have you heard of someone dieing and then be brought back to life before?

how about this guy?
 
  • #32
TENYEARS
472
0
You are the first I have ever seen anyone mention this individual anywhere. Interesting choice.
 
  • #33
I'm not a Christian, but I have to say, comparing the universe to CNC machinery is the absolute dumbest analogy I have ever read in a PF thread. It's also the funniest and a good example of how people tend to glamorize their otherwise boring jobs.

eNtRopY
 
  • #34
Dark Wing
85
0
Originally posted by CubeX

Remember, your life is your soul. Now, since you posted this, have you heard of someone dieing and then be brought back to life before? I know you have. I think that 20 minutes is the max recorded though.

But since Jesus was in human form, he DID apply to death. He could die, but the matter is, death was made because of man in the Garden. It was because of sin, correct? Well, did Jesus ever sin? God cannot sin, it is not in His nature.(This statement is going to get a lot from you, I know ). So, in believing that there is a heaven and a hell and that our souls go to either place, we must believe that the same accounted for Him. Now, you might be saying, how can a soul go anywhere? Well, you'd have to die to tell me!
So basically, it's that life leaves the physical body and moves on to either place.

And also, I have heard every-single one of those. You don't have to bring them up. I've been doing this type of thing for 2 years now.

-CubeX

I am presuming that you mean that though his body died, his soul remained. therefore, we have a very diffrent understanding of what happens during death.

To me death is death. we die. we no longer exist. there is no soul that transends to heaven or hell, there is no place that you go that your body cannot, we die. simple as that. we turn to dust, it is at the ressuraction that we come back and judgment happens etc.

so, under my definition of death, there is no way that jesus can be God at all. unless this separate part of God that is also God but with a diffrent charctor can some how ceise to exist. life does not, as far as i understand, move from one place to another, our life is entirly with in our body. "we" stop. life goes back to god, but that is not us. that's just the thing that keeps the body functining, if you want to go into a debate on that passage.

i do not believe in going to heaven or hell when you die, or us going anywhere in death. i believe in dust. if you can show me where in the bible it tells us otherwise, then please post them. i sincerely want to see these passages.

I have also been doing this for a good 4 years or so now. I do not fall into any religion or follow any church. i am a bible scholar and as such am alos a litralist. so anything that you wish to show me would be greatly appreciated.
 
  • #35
Another God
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
987
4
Originally posted by Dark Wing
To me death is death. we die. we no longer exist. there is no soul that transends to heaven or hell, there is no place that you go that your body cannot, we die. simple as that. we turn to dust, it is at the ressuraction that we come back and judgment happens etc.

so, under my definition of death, there is no way that jesus can be God at all. unless this separate part of God that is also God but with a diffrent charctor can some how ceise to exist. life does not, as far as i understand, move from one place to another, our life is entirly with in our body. "we" stop. life goes back to god, but that is not us. that's just the thing that keeps the body functining, if you want to go into a debate on that passage.
OK, so the thing that makes us US is in the body, when we die, we cease. But after this death we come back for the judgement.

I have to ask this: What "Self" is it precisely that comes back? If we are just our body, then what attribute of our body is it exactly, and when, is it that constitutes us? Do you believe our body is stagnant? Or more appropriately, do you believe that our mind is stagnant at some core level? Because without believing that we are born with some sort of core mental aspect which defines us as a person, then you are stuck with the fact that there is no 'self' to face up to judgement. There is only a series of connected mental events. (which form the illusion of self)

Oh, and what do you mean by "Life goes back to god"?
 

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