The Q factor calculation for the two-port SAW resonator

AI Thread Summary
The discussion focuses on calculating the Q factor for two-port SAW resonators, comparing it to the one-port resonator formula. Users have tested the two-port resonator using an Agilent 4395A network analyzer, obtaining both insertion loss and phase data. While the Q values calculated from different methods show slight discrepancies, the community emphasizes that the phase-frequency formula for one-port resonators may not directly apply to two-port resonators. It is suggested that the best approach to calculate Q involves fitting data in the I-Q plane, and caution is advised when measuring narrowband resonators to avoid erroneous results. The concept of Q for two-port resonators is noted to be less defined, but it can still relate to phase noise estimates in certain contexts.
feiyuzhen
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
In some papers, I found that the Q of resonator, i.e. one-port SAW resonator, can be calculated with the formula 1/f0*(diff(phi(f),f)@f=f0),phi(f) is the phase of impedance,
I have tested one one-port saw resonator with the network analyzer agilent4395A under the impedance mode, then process the phase-frequency data and the modulus of impedance with the relation of frequency, the Q value calculated from the formula above is similar with the ratio between working frequency and 3dB band.
Then for the two-port SAW resonator, usually can be tested under the network mode, and so I would got two data groups, one is insertion loss data in a frequency band, other one is the phase data in a frequency band, can the Q factor be calculated with the formula that for the one-port resonator?
I have calculated the Q value from the two data groups,one is using formula f0/Δf(3dB band),other one is using the formula above,
The results does different,but the difference is small.
I want an explanation whether it is correct for the phase-frequency formula used for the Q factor calculation for the two-port SAW resonator.
help,thank you in advance.
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
*How is the resonator connected? Do you get a notch or a peak response?
*Are you looking for the loaded or unloaded Q?
*The best way to calculate Q is usually to plot the data in the I-Q plane and then fit a circle to it using a least-square fit. The fitting parameters for the circle can then be used to calculate the Q using whatever formula is relevant for your situation (1-port, 2-port, parallel or series connection etc).

*If you are only interested in the loaded Q (and don't need to worry about the coupling) one can usually get away fit just fitting to a standard Lorentzian.

If you want the full details you should try to find a copy of the book "Q Factor" by Kayfez

Also, J don't think there is any reason for why you would need to look specifically at paper for SAW resonators, Q is Q regardless of what type of resonator you are measuring.
 
Thank you for your post.
1.A power splitter connected to the Agilent4395A, then one port of it is connected directly to the network analyzer, that's the reference channel.The other port is connected to the input of the two-port SAW resonator, and the ouput of the resonator is connected to the network analyzer, that's the test channel.Of course, all the wire are coaxial line. Then with the ratio of the power from the two channels, we can get the insertion loss and the phase-frequency figure. For the two-port SAW resonator, I got a peak response.

2. There are three ports used on the 4395A. 1st one is connected to the power splitter,2nd one is connected to splitter too and 3rd one is connected to the SAW resonator. The port connected to the splitter is like a power supply and the internal impedance is 50ohm, the other two ports are like two resistor and their impedance are also 50ohm. I think I'm looking for the loaded Q.

3."The best way to calculate Q is usually to plot the data..." what data? "...in the I-Q plane..." current-Qvalue plane? and then, how to calculate?

4.you're right, the IL(insertion loss)-freq figure can be fitted to a standard Lorentzian, but
I want calculated the Q value from phase-freq figure. The reason is below. I can tuned the scan frequency band on the 4395A, if I set the band equal to 0, then the network analyzer works like a single frequency source, and then I enlarger the IL, I can see the noise at that frequency point,
but, for the IL-freq figure I can't understand the meaning of it, the noise of IL at that point?
I don't know, but for the phase-freq figure, the meaning of it is the noise of the phase at that point.Then the calculated slope of the phase-freq figure near that frequency point can be used for calculated the equivalent frequency. For example, the slope is 1 degree/Hz,the noise band is 0.1 degree,then the equivalent frequency is 0.1Hz. That's why I want to know whether the formula for the one-port SAW resonator can be used for the two-port SAW resonator.

Finally, I can't find the copy of the book "Q Factor" by Kayfez, can you help me, I'm very appreciate for that.
 
Q for a 1 port resonator is as defined in your original post. But "Q" for a 2 port is a somewhat undefined concept.

If you want to treat the 2 port saw bandpass response as the resonator in a transmission type oscillator, then yes, measuring the 3 dB down points will relate to a "Q" that has some meaning. For example, you could use that "Q" in Leesons equation for a phase noise estimate.

Note: when you measure ANY narrowband resonator with a network analyzer, you need to do so carefully. You want to reduce the IF bandwidth, and slow down the sweep time, or you may get very erroneous results.
 
Thread 'Weird near-field phenomenon I get in my EM simulation'
I recently made a basic simulation of wire antennas and I am not sure if the near field in my simulation is modeled correctly. One of the things that worry me is the fact that sometimes I see in my simulation "movements" in the near field that seems to be faster than the speed of wave propagation I defined (the speed of light in the simulation). Specifically I see "nodes" of low amplitude in the E field that are quickly "emitted" from the antenna and then slow down as they approach the far...
Hello dear reader, a brief introduction: Some 4 years ago someone started developing health related issues, apparently due to exposure to RF & ELF related frequencies and/or fields (Magnetic). This is currently becoming known as EHS. (Electromagnetic hypersensitivity is a claimed sensitivity to electromagnetic fields, to which adverse symptoms are attributed.) She experiences a deep burning sensation throughout her entire body, leaving her in pain and exhausted after a pulse has occurred...
Back
Top