Today Special Relativity dies

[Hurkyl]

but I'm not sure he acquired them through SR since he didn't really elaborate.

As Tom said, it's just geometry.

The method is consistent with SR, but in this problem, it is also consistent with Newton. No switching of frames of reference was involved, and that seems to be the particular disagreement you have with SR.

A lot of people detracting from SR forget that it has all the "ordinary" tools for analyzing a single reference frame too! (e.g. geometry, vectors, calculus)

Can't you rotate the clocks 90 degrees, accelerate and then rotate back to align as before acceleration?

That's an interesting question; I hadn't pondered if there was any simple 2-D way to do this.

the emitter exploding is a good one, Great. i was tempted to use explosion as emitters but was afraid someone would say something crazy like "the explosion imparts and inertial vectored thrust quotient based on non-linear cohesian and sub temporal disjunction, and therefore the light particles get immersed in an endothermic tesla-radiation that elevates their states to 15th dimensional particles. SR predicts that these particles exist everywhere at once. Good Game, ram1024, YOU LOSE"

Bah! That's silly!


They're only 14th dimension particles.

 

[wespe]

OK. Let's try again. Let's say that when the light is emitted, the emitter blows up in a huge explosion. Somebody is standing off in the distance observing this. He either observes the explosion on the left and then the explosion on the right or he observes the explosion on the right and then on the left.

Do you mean: "those simultaneity conclusions were harmless illusions, but let's add something real like explosions". It doesn't matter. The order of events can be really different for different observers. None of them is more correct or real than the other. You can't be at both places to see which event "really" occurred when. As long as there is no paradox, what is your objection?

Actually, O Great One, I think you can ask such questions in the relativity forum and get better answers there. [edit: provided that you will ask questions and you are willing to learn relativity's answer. Otherwise this forum is the proper place, but I suggest you create a new thread]

This thread is in a strange state.. Ram1024 seems content with Hurkyl's answers, even though I suggested there were a misunderstanding between them, Ram1024 doesn't try to clarify and Hurkyl doesn't try to investigate.. On the other hand I don't want more time wasted, so I don't mind if this thread dies.

 

[ram1024]

well i can't really disprove SR if it's giving answers that i deem to be "correct" :D

the whole idea for this was to try and point out a paradox of reference frames using simultaneity of one observer (which i believe to be immutable)

maybe if Tom can chime in and dispute Hurkyl's answers we can try again.

 

[wespe]

well i can't really disprove SR if it's giving answers that i deem to be "correct" :D

I see problems, ram1024:
You don't know enough about SR to find the answers yourself. So you have to rely on others for those answers. Then you fail to specify the scenario clearly and you get different answers. One of the answers happen to match your version and you give up. You were trying to disprove a theory you don't know enough about in the first place. How will it be next time? Don't you see the problem, even after 100 replies I'm not sure what the scenario is anymore. Next time, don't omit "obvious" details, use some math if possible.

 

[ram1024]

well if SR wasn't so counter intuitive it'd be a lot easier for me to describe situations that can be easily viewed by it :|

SR contains too many things that go against what i believe to be reality, all to accommodate this "constant relative light speed".

i haven't given up

 

[wespe]

well if SR wasn't so counter intuitive it'd be a lot easier for me to describe situations that can be easily viewed by it :|

SR contains too many things that go against what i believe to be reality, all to accommodate this "constant relative light speed".

Exactly. All those counter intuitive things were invented to satisfy constant relative light speed. So, all you have to do is disprove constant relative light speed. Or, find an alternate theory that satisfies constant relative light speed. Good luck!

 

[ram1024]

constant relative itself makes no sense. that means it's not constant NOT relative. think about THAT one :D

 

[wespe]

constant relative itself makes no sense. that means it's not constant NOT relative. think about THAT one :D

Makes no sense? You have the option of disproving it. You should be able to explain how it was measured constant in experiments.

Yes, relative, but still constant. Speed is a ratio. Due to SR effects this ratio remains constant. Or, you could even say it's absolute, in the sense that all observers agree it's constant.

 

[ram1024]

but ONLY if you give all observers their own reality :|

 

[wespe]

but ONLY if you give all observers their own reality :|

All observers can have their own reality as long as these realities don't create a paradox. I kind of liked your idea about a common reality created by superimposing these individual realities (or sth like that). But that common reality is of no use to us mere mortals :)

 

[geistkiesel]

but ONLY if you give all observers their own reality :|

Ram: Some gross physics might help. When discussing a moving frame relative to a stationary frame or a frame < your frame there are practical limits. Trains and stationary platforms are a slam dunk open obvious. The train moves, the platform is a stationary platorm. Who is going to realistically sta3e that the platform can be considered moving while the train is stationar.? The train started in the stationary frame and it is that entity that is moviing. Because mathematics says you can do it doesn't mean you have to do it.

What about relative motion between two bodies. If there is a time acceleration history then the frames can be distinguished such that V(frame1) < V(frame2) and while the frames are inertial, constant velocity, one is always moving slower than the other even though the math let's you swap out the frames "because you can".

This is illogical to do it once much less more than once, but taking the digression v1>v2>v3>v4> to extremes, there has to be zero velocity as a lower limit. So why swap out frames, just because you can?
I suppose that c would be the max velocity until that barrier is overcome.

Your day is up, but ram1024 I think you won after all: can't you sense the anguish, the anticipated high pitched moans of panicked SR theorists, contemplating the demise of their cherished theory. ..?

 

[ram1024]

if i had some real experimental data to work with i could take it further.

or a better grounding in maths and the formulas used :(

what i had was logic, and it appears i come to the same conclusions that SR does. <shrug>

 

[ram1024]

albeit with a different system... so maybe i need to polish that :D

 

[ram1024]

on a different note, since SR confirms the same thing that i was thinking about "reality" that means my Spacebuoy HAS to work.

and now since civilians are making space flights, maybe i can sneak one of my spacebuoys on-board and prove an universal stationary relative frame :D

 

[HallsofIvy]

ram1024: What you "deem" to be correct is irrelevant to whether relativity is correct or not. The only thing that is relevant is the experimental evidence- which is strongly in favor of relativity.

By the way "logic" is useless without facts.

 

[ram1024]

if what i deem to be correct leads to the same results as relativity then i don't care, either way like i said before, my purposes are realized by them.

i think i'll port the space-buoy over to this thread since it's agreed that it will work now :D

 

[ram1024]

URF (Universal Rest Frame) Space-Buoy© <- ke ke
the machine consists OF:

1 heavy duty computing device
4 photon receptors
4 equal length long ass poles and 4 photon emitters connected to sychronized clocks
some thrusters for movement.

now the idea for this consists of detecting the difference in arrival times of the photons from different directions.

if the photons from any source arrive SOONER than other sources, we can conclude we are moving towards that emitter. we merely perform some calculations, use our thrusters to slow us down, and take another measurement.

when we finally receive the light from all sources at the same time we will be at complete universal rest, and objects functioning in this relativistic inertial frame will bear true space/time

 

[Hurkyl]

but ONLY if you give all observers their own reality

Reality, in SR, is worldlines living in space-time.

Observers don't have their "own reality"; they just measure reality differently.

 

[ram1024]

well ya, but "their measurement" are also perfectly valid, according to einstein assertions, so you they DO have their own reality :D

 

[ArmoSkater87]

ok...i read the first section of arguements, and jesus u all make it way more complicated than it really is. It might seem this way to me because I'm a high school student going into 12th grade, and i have yet to take BC calc and AP physics when school starts. Even though i can't go into the detail that u all go into all the frames and ****, but from the very biginning i saw that the answers were true, true, true. I'll come some time to see what else is up, well, have fun argueing about SR. By the way, u just can't try to disprove the theory of one of the greatest geniuses of all time, SR has been proven correct in several experiments. (-_-)

 

[geistkiesel]

ok...i read the first section of arguements, and jesus u all make it way more complicated than it really is. It might seem this way to me because I'm a high school student going into 12th grade, and i have yet to take BC calc and AP physics when school starts. Even though i can't go into the detail that u all go into all the frames and ****, but from the very biginning i saw that the answers were true, true, true. I'll come some time to see what else is up, well, have fun argueing about SR. By the way, u just can't try to disprove the theory of one of the greatest geniuses of all time, SR has been proven correct in several experiments. (-_-)

Hey, ArmoSkater87, I got to question for ya. How do you know who is and who is not the "greatest geniuses of all time" ? I mean if you aren't up there with the greatest, how do you comprehend those that are the greatest? I suspect because soemone convinced you they were "the greatest".

So sad to see someone so rigidly robotic at such a tender young age. You start believing in the complexities of scientific understanding as rigidly established as you stated in your post then you are missing the dynamic exchanges that proves the oppostite situation as the rule, the dynamics of change and reformation of structure and form. Relativity theory is a temporary state of scientific discussion, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Hurkyl]

well ya, but "their measurement" are also perfectly valid, according to einstein assertions, so you they DO have their own reality :D

Don't forget Gallileo and Newton too!

 

[Janus]

URF (Universal Rest Frame) Space-Buoy© <- ke ke
the machine consists OF:

1 heavy duty computing device
4 photon receptors
4 equal length long ass poles and 4 photon emitters connected to sychronized clocks
some thrusters for movement.

now the idea for this consists of detecting the difference in arrival times of the photons from different directions.

if the photons from any source arrive SOONER than other sources, we can conclude we are moving towards that emitter. we merely perform some calculations, use our thrusters to slow us down, and take another measurement.

when we finally receive the light from all sources at the same time we will be at complete universal rest, and objects functioning in this relativistic inertial frame will bear true space/time

Sorry, but this device will not detect uniform motion. If you had two of these devices, and they were moving relative to each other, all the photons for each device would still arrive all at the same time.

 

[ram1024]

Janus, do me a flavor and go back to page 1.

answer True/False for case 1,2 and 3

then hit page 4 for case #4 which is an essay type question

 

[ram1024]

and yes, the UFR Spacebuoy does NOT work, but I'm not going to tell you why... not yet :D

 

[wespe]

and yes, the UFR Spacebuoy does NOT work, but I'm not going to tell you why... not yet :D

How old are you? :)

Anyway, UFR Spacebuoy imparts and inertial vectored thrust quotient based on non-linear cohesian and sub temporal disjunction, and therefore the light particles get immersed in an endothermic tesla-radiation that elevates their states to 15th dimensional particles. SR predicts that these particles exist everywhere at once. Good Game, ram1024, YOU LOSE

 

[jcsd]

ok...i read the first section of arguements, and jesus u all make it way more complicated than it really is. It might seem this way to me because I'm a high school student going into 12th grade, and i have yet to take BC calc and AP physics when school starts. Even though i can't go into the detail that u all go into all the frames and ****, but from the very biginning i saw that the answers were true, true, true. I'll come some time to see what else is up, well, have fun argueing about SR. By the way, u just can't try to disprove the theory of one of the greatest geniuses of all time, SR has been proven correct in several experiments. (-_-)

Actually the only one that is true is the last statement, the first statemnt is defintely false as it implies the clocks will stay synchronized in all inertial frames which is not the case and the second one suggests the same thing.

 

[ram1024]

How old are you? :)

Anyway, UFR Spacebuoy imparts and inertial vectored thrust quotient based on non-linear cohesian and sub temporal disjunction, and therefore the light particles get immersed in an endothermic tesla-radiation that elevates their states to 15th dimensional particles. SR predicts that these particles exist everywhere at once. Good Game, ram1024, YOU LOSE

heh I'm 28, and that's not as far from the truth as you might suppose ;D

15th dimensional particles! holy hell! they're everywhen!

 

[ArmoSkater87]

Hey geistkiesel, your right about me not being anywhere up there, but in my opinion i don't have to be to know who has a briliant mind and who doesnt. Einstein follwed Galileo and Newton, who were the first to explain motion mathematically. Altough many more followed, it seems to me that Einstein has incorperated much more into his theories than earlier minds had before him. I'm not saying that Einstein is the greatest genius that ever lived, I am just saying that he has ONE of the most briliant minds that anyone has ever seen. I can simply say this because of the fact that there have been so few in that field like him.


quote:
"Actually the only one that is true is the last statement, the first statemnt is defintely false as it implies the clocks will stay synchronized in all inertial frames which is not the case and the second one suggests the same thing."

haha, way over my head jcsd

 

[jcsd]

haha, way over my head jcsd

It isn't/doesn't have to be though, relativistic kinematics are suprisingly easy to understand.