Torque on a square screw full with water

AI Thread Summary
The discussion revolves around calculating the torque on a square screw filled with water, focusing on the forces acting on its internal and external surfaces. Participants explore how hydraulic pressure affects torque, particularly at the corners of the screw, and the role of gaskets in potentially canceling out torque from the up and down surfaces. The conversation highlights the complexity of the problem, especially when considering the thickness of gaskets and their interaction with water pressure. Ultimately, it is suggested that the net torque can be simplified by analyzing the forces on the screw's surfaces and their projections. The participants aim to clarify the mechanics involved and seek a deeper understanding of the torque dynamics in this specific scenario.
  • #51
Gaskets with their weight can't contain the water. There must be some side pressure. In case of circular threads, the external side is contained by the pipe wall, or if it is in touch with water , by water pressure.

If you focus on these points, you would find the problem faster than I can do. I'm waiting for the result!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #52
You forget the square thread is in sandwich between 2 fixed circular threads. The gasket is 1µm of thickness only. One side of water is on square thread, one side of water is on fixed thread. The gasket is fixed on the square thread. The gasket is a line of 1µm of thickness which is all around the square thread.
 
  • #53
The gaskets can be treated as a part of the fixed thread then. Give a 1 cm thickness for water film and analyze it. If you think the water wight makes thinks more difficult, fill the 1 cm gap with gas. Doesn't your calculation give a net torque again, if the total angle is not multiple of 360 ? There is a problem here too.
 
  • #54
I think the problem is enough difficult like that. I don't want to put a gasket with 1cm of thickness, this is more complicated, my gasket is very small. It's important to see where the torque is canceled. There is only 2 surface with water, no weight, the gasket can be very small. I'm looking for where is the another torque
 
  • #55
Sorry, I recommended to ignore the gasket. But increase the water film thickness.
by the way, jf you cut the turning thread only, and the fixed thread is still circular, what fills the space between the two fixed threads?

And if you cut both, what fills the space inside and also outside?
 
  • #56
If I cut fixed thread, there is a big problem for retain water, it's not this case I study.

I cut only square thread. The fixed threads are circular. See message #10 for look the yellow square thread (but be carreful the message is for first method not second, look the drawing). The water is between square thread and fixed thread, this water follow square thread.
 
Last edited:
  • #57
The removed regions are filled with air then. Again what prevents water from ejecting to the air from the sides? gaskets? gaskets are on the top and down. Gasket fringes? What forces push the gasket fringes against the water? Water pressure is small? The torque is small too.
 
  • #58
The pressure is the height of the thread, if the thread is 10 m we have at bottom 1 bar.

Sure gaskets receive pressure from water but the force = pressure * surface, like surface can be near 0 the force is near 0.

Imagine the gasket like a cord with a radius of 0.5µm for example, put this cord between square thread and fixed thread at up and down surfaces. Sure there is friction in practise but we can imagine no friction in theory. I would like to know where is the torque which cancel the torque give from phase angle of the radius.

I add drawing with gasket and another with gasket and water (blue color)
 

Attachments

  • new thread with gasket.png
    new thread with gasket.png
    9.7 KB · Views: 417
  • a square thread in circular threads.jpg
    a square thread in circular threads.jpg
    17.4 KB · Views: 468
  • new thread with gasket and water.png
    new thread with gasket and water.png
    7.2 KB · Views: 434
Last edited:
  • #59
I think I have found the problem but I am not sure how to explain it the best. When the waters are static (the bottom of the film is closed), as it is in your case, at any point on the surfaces, the force is normal to the surface but the surface can not move in that direction. So the force can not do any work for us. Question: What are the opposing forces or torques?  Answer: The combination of forces and reaction forces ( or the due torques) which keep the thread fixed in that direction. So, even without the lower water, the net torque is still zero. Maybe you can explain this better.
 
  • #60
First, for the torque I think it is like:

dM=r*P*de*dl*sin(θ)

With r= radius,
P=pressure at the point
de=small proof
dl=small lenght
θ=slope
dS=small surface=de*dl

With this we can see the Moment is not the same at each point (if the torque was the same in all points in the thread we will have not angle phase torque)

Second, I understand what you say, it's a good idea, ok all displacements perpendicular to the force don't give energy (or take) in the contrary if the thread has a torque it turn and give energy. Don't forget there is no up or down force. Never I see a case in physics where we have a torque and where the force is perpendicular to the movement (or when a case exist the system can't turn, here the system can turn and it is always in the same state). If another torque don't exist it's very strange (for me !).

regards
 
Last edited:
  • #61
Yes that's the formula for the torque due to surface force at that point. For the total torque, we should calculate the force due to all surface forces, includeing the cut srface. Did you have a reason to ignore the forces on the cut surface? Perhaps you think these forces are parallel with r and cause no torque. But if the were paralled with r everywhere, they wouldn't cancel the hydraulic force on the turning thread surfaces and the surface would move in the force direction.
 
  • #62
What is the cut surface ? See the message #58 for explain please. The surfaces with water is only up and down surfaces not sides.
 
Last edited:
  • #63
Only water where you see blue color. The all system is in air.
 

Attachments

  • new thread with gasket and water.png
    new thread with gasket and water.png
    8.7 KB · Views: 466
  • #64
Ok, If you assume the thread to be like what we see in message #58, it has a degree of freedom in directions other than the z- axis. But of course you don:t mean that's all the model. When we consider the thread to be fixed from sides, we are assuming some forces from sides to cancell the lateral focres.

If you assume that the thread is that square only, then the analysis would be different. For a free body, we can define torque?
 
  • #65
For a free body, we can define torque?
Because it move up/down and turn ? I don't know how to study this case. For see if an object move I done the sum of all forces. For see if something turn I sum all the moments. If something is force to turn but must move up/down for turn (no force contrary the move up/down) why the thread can't turn ? We know there is no up/down force but I think there is a torque (need calculations for measure it exactly and I try...). Sure like you said the square thread move perpendiculary to the force and this is original, enough for study more. Imagine you're the square thread, you have no up/down force and you have something which want to turn you, what you do ?
 
  • #66
Right, but axis of rotation woud depends on the forces and its won't be the z-axis. The calculation would be different too. Morevover, as the as force cause a small motion perpendicular to the surface, the volumes of water ( or pressurized gas as I assume)would change and the forces become balanced again.
 
  • #67
Right, but axis of rotation woud depends on the forces and its won't be the z-axis. The calculation would be different too.
I don't understand could you explain more please ? For me the axis of rotation depends of the mecanical freedom. The square thread can turn around Z axis and can move up/down.
the volumes of water ( or pressurized gas as I assume)would change and the forces become balanced again.
The film of water is pressurized due to the speed ? When the system start maybe, but if we launched the square thread at w rd/s after the water is always at same pressure I think.
 
Last edited:
  • #68
1. Sorry I was wrong. we can calculate torque around any number of arbirary axes.

2. Forget about the gas. Lest assume water only. The forces normal to the surface cause a torque which may not be around the Z axis. Since the thread is locked and can't move normal to the surface, there must be an opposing torque from the reaction of the fixed thread. Since the fixed threads are not directly in contact with the square thread, they apply their forcec through water by increasing the pressure on one side and decreasing on the other side. So when calculating the torque around Z-axis, you should consider these changens in pressure too .
 
  • #69
The forces normal to the surface cause a torque which may not be around the Z axis.
Think with a circular thread, apply pressure at up surface and 0 pressure at down surface this will apply a torque of the thread (sure this need energy). Maybe all the torque is not around Z axis but like the thread is forced to move between 2 fixed threads, all others torque have no effect, but this can't delete the part of torque around Z axis. For me the torque around Z axis is like dM=r*P*de*dl*sin(θ), other torque is canceled by axis of the square thread (the drawings don't show the square thread axis but the square thread can have it). The power lossed (or give) by a torque depend of the axis, if we don't turn around the good axis, the torque don't lossed (or give) energy I think.


Since the fixed threads are not directly in contact with the square thread, they apply their forcec through water by increasing the pressure on one side and decreasing on the other side.
I don't understand, for you the fixed thread increase the pressure of water, it's not gravity which create pressure ? The film of water is always fixed to the square thread and never move alone, the volume of the film (the volume where the water is) is constant always. How the pressure can be increase when the volume is constant ? Edit: I understand now what you said ! It's more easy to explain with the high of water, if the thickness of the film change, this change the high of water and this change the pressure, ok. But, with a mecanical system it's possible to adjust the thickness due to no up/down forces I think.

Edit: Don't forget there is no up/down forces, it's important: the thread has a torque, and when the thread turn it need to move up/down, but we can adjust the vertical mouvement freely because we have no up/down force. It's the difference of radius which give torque but vertical movement don't care about radius.
 
Last edited:
  • #70
Sorry for the confusion. Seems I have a different understating of the problem. But it is not the main problem.
1. From message #63 on I thought the thread has no axis.
2. I thought the water films are closed by gasket from bottom and top too.

But these are not the main problem.

With or without axis, if the thread is forced to move with fixed distance from the fixed thread, the force any point is normal and the displacement in normal direction is zero. This means the whole force is canceled somehow. When the whole force is canceled, what part of the force remains to cause another torque? This may be enough to conclude that net torque is zero, but perhaps you want to know the problem in your calculation.

When you calculate the net torque, you should consider other forces too. I mean the forces which keep the thread in the same distance from the fixed thread. You would see that those forces have some components to cancel the torque around Z axis. It's quite simple now.
 
  • #71
Sorry for the confusion.
Thanks for your help :)

1. From message #63 on I thought the thread has no axis.
it can, I think this don't change the result. But for simplify the problem consider there is an axis like that all forces which are in the axis is canceled by axis.

2. I thought the water films are closed by gasket from bottom and top too.
Yes all is closed, but the film is always at the same place.

but perhaps you want to know the problem in your calculation.
Yes, I would like to calculate this ! I don't know how, I need help for this.

With or without axis, if the thread is forced to move with fixed distance from the fixed thread, the force any point is normal and the displacement in normal direction is zero.
For me, there is a torque and others forces in the axis of the square thread like you said. The pressure apply forces in 3 directions. Z axis which I see a torque. X and Y, but these axis can't turn due to the Z axis, could you explain how you see the torque is canceled by another forces ?regards
 
  • #72
Seems here is your problem: The axis of the thread is not fixed by a bearing or something. It can't cancel any force or torque. In fact the torque is canceled by the fixed thread through the water films. The reaction forces from the fixed thread is normal to the fixed there ( and also to the square thread) , it has x and y components too.
 
  • #73
We can put the square thread like the drawing show. There is an axis but the thread can move free up/down. The sum up/down forces is 0. The X and Y axis can't turn.
 

Attachments

  • new thread with gasket and water and axis.png
    new thread with gasket and water and axis.png
    10.6 KB · Views: 493
  • #74
But this has no effect. Since the water films are not compressible, they keep the axis just in the center of the bearing. No radial force then.
 
  • #75
Z axis is fixed with square thread. The square thread can only move up/down and turn around Z axis I think. The fixed threads are not fixed with Z axis. Where I wrote "fixed" in the drawing, supports of axis are fixed to fixed referential.

Since the water films are not compressible,
maybe it's the source of misunderstood. The film of water is not compressible, we have only gravity which create pressure.
 
Last edited:
  • #76
Yes I understand you but again its the fixed thread which cancel the torque not the axis of the thread, because the axis of the tread is not pushing against the bearing.
 
  • #77
Since the water films are not compressible,

maybe it's the source of conflict. The film of water is not compressible, we have only gravity which create pressure.
 
  • #78
That's why I prefer to fill the space between the threads with pressured gas.
 
  • #79
Ah, ok, but with gas, like I said before, I agree: there is no torque. For me, the torque appear with the change of pressure due to the gravity. I don't pressure the film of water, there is only pressure from gravity. And like you see with the last drawing, the axis of the square thread prevent the square thread to move X and Y axis and prevent to move around X and Y axis. The only liberty is move up/down and rotate around Z axis. Like that the square thread never move on X and Y, the film of water is always with gravity pressure only.

For me, now I see only one solution: the torque is the same everywhere in the thread but you said my calculation of the torque is good.
 
Last edited:
  • #80
Another thing is that, for closed gasket, the pressure is not the gravity only. The pressures are determined by equilibrium equations. I think you consider the pressures as if their top was open.
 
  • #81
Another thing is that, for closed gasket, the pressure is not the gravity only.
But if you pressurized water, the pressure is added at each point and you add a fixed constant to the phase angle torque. The phase angle exist always I think.

But I give a drawing of the square thread with open gasket at top if you think it's important. The water can't move down.
 

Attachments

  • new thread with gasket and water no gesket at top.png
    new thread with gasket and water no gesket at top.png
    10.3 KB · Views: 444
  • #82
You can even leave the lower gap filled with air. Only the upper film is filled with water. Yo can even fill it to a certain level. Again the axis cancels the torque.
Added: Sorry, in this case, the thread sits on the fixed thread.
 
Last edited:
  • #83
You can even leave the lower gap filled with air. Only the upper film is filled with water.
I don't understand can you explain ? Up and down gaps are filled with water not air.

Added: Sorry, in this case, the thread sits on the fixed thread
Not at all, there is no up/down force, so a mechanical system can easily adjust the altitude of the square thread. The mechanical system support the weight of the system (weight move up/down => energy=0). Again, films of water (up AND down) are always the same, the volume is constant. Water is under gravity pressure only.

Are you sure about the formula : dM=r*P*de*dl*sin(θ) ?
 
Last edited:
  • #84
dM=dF \times r

It is a vector, when you integrate, you can't threat is like an scalar. the magnitude of this vector is

|dM|=PdA r sinθ , where θ is the angle between the force and r , not the angle between the r and Z axis. Due to the curvature of the thread, the normal force is not along the Z axis.

dA: an infinitesimal area around the point.
 
  • #85
So, for you the formula is good ?
 
  • #86
Seems fine. In this problem, θ seems to be constant at any phase angle.
 
  • #87
θ change with the radius, it is the slope of the thread. The pitch is the same at every radius but the length is bigger when the radius is increasing. With pitch = 1, when we pass from r=1 to r=3 we pass from sin(θ)=0.707 to sin(θ)= 0.316. The torque is not the same at each point of the thread, bigger if the radius is bigger.
 

Attachments

  • circular thread slopes.png
    circular thread slopes.png
    24.3 KB · Views: 467
Last edited:
  • #88
I can't imagine the slope of the thread in radial direction correctly. What are the slopes at r=0 and r=infinity?

The torque is bigger mainly due to increase in r itself.
 
  • #89
r->0, the slope -> 90°
r->infinity, the slope ->0°
See last message for the drawing, the slopes are visible on the circular thread.
 
  • #90
I don't get it. Normal to surface a any point makes an angle with Z axis. does the angle depends on r?
 
  • #91
does the angle depends on r?
for me yes, you can't see the drawing ?
 

Attachments

  • circular thread slopes v2.png
    circular thread slopes v2.png
    22.1 KB · Views: 517
  • #92
I'm working about the angle and the torque.

The equation of a helicoid is:

x=v*cos(u)
y=v*sin(u)
z=u

With u and v reals, v is the radius, u is the altitude

Perpendicular vector or normal vector (n) to the surface is :

n = v1 x v2 with "x" cross product and v1, v2 two vectors of the tangent plane

Vector=(v*cos(u), v*sin(u), u)

v1=dVector/du=(-v*sin(u), v*cos(u), 1)
v2=dVector/dv=(cos(u, sin(u), 0)

n = v1 x v2 = (sin(u), -cos(u), v)

We can see the angle of the perpendicular vector to the surface, it's like we said before.

I'm trying to do the full torque around Z axis.
 
Last edited:
  • #93
Thanks for the equations. It like the formula of normals. I didn't know this formula and I usually use gradient method. For parametric curves your method is easier. Now I can imagine what surface the screw has.

In order to calculate the total torque, you need to use equations of equilibrium too.
 
  • #94
For you, these equations validate the torque dM=r*P*de*dl*sin(θ) ?
 
  • #95
what are de and dl?
 
  • #96
dA=de*dl the small area
 
  • #97
That's correct. But you can test your formula on a sphere in the water. the sphere haszero mass and is connected to a horizontal axis with a mass-less bar. the torque is expected to become ro*g*V*L , where the V is the volume of the sphere, ro is the density of water, and L is the distance from the center to the axis.
 
  • #98
It's very difficult to have the equation of the square thread for have the torque. I decided to find it with numerical solution. Here it's the program in C language. I hope you know this language but it's not difficult to read it with mathematical equations. I have take pressure in bar in local torque but done total torque in Pa.

The start of the helicoid is done by "d". If d=0 we have 214500 Nm but if d=-0.45 rd we have 217000 Nm for the total torque. Maybe something is wrong in my program or maybe there is a torque like I said before, in this case I don't find the contrary torque.#include <stdio.h>
#include <math.h>
#include <stdio.h>

int main(void)
{
double x=0.0,y=0.0,z=0.0; // each point of the circular thread, I use circular thread and after select only points which are on the square thread
double u=0.0,v=0.0; // u=altitude, v=radius
double a=0.0; // angle
double torque=0.0; // local torque
double torqueT=0.0; // total torque
double pas=0.001; // step for integration
double pi=3.1415927;
double vLimit=2*pi, uLimit=2*pi; // limit of integration, in meters
double c1=3, c2=4; // limit of the square thread in meters
double d=-0; // angle start for the helicoid

do
{
do
{
//calculation of each point of the helicoid
x=v*cos(u-d);
y=v*sin(u-d);
z=u;

// select only point for have the square thread
if( (x>c1 && x<c2 && y<c2 && y>-c2) || (x<-c1 && x>-c2 && y<c2 && y>-c2) || (y>c1 && y<c2 && x<c2 && x>-c2) || (y<-c1 && y>-c2 && x<c2 && x>-c2) )
{
a=atan(uLimit/2/pi/v);
torque=v*(uLimit-u)/10.0*sin(a)*pas*pas; // Here the pressure is (uLimit-u)/10.0 in bar //// pas*pas = surface
torqueT+=torque;
/*
// print part result
printf("\nu=%f, v=%f", u,v);
printf("\nx=%f, y=%f, z=%f",x,y,z);
printf("\na=%f, couple=%f",a, torque);
printf("\nT=%f", torqueT);
system("pause");
*/
}
v+=pas; // increase step of integration
}while(v<vLimit);
v=0;
u+=pas; // increase step for integration
}while(u<uLimit);

printf("The total torque is: %f",torqueT*100000.0); // * 100000 for pass from bar to Pa unity
}
 
Last edited:
  • #99
I have checked the code by the result only and I think there is a problem in your code. I think if we make uLimit half, the torque becomes half too. in your code the relation is not linear. Also I have doubt about your differential volume. I don't think it simply becomes the product of the differential change in u and v. for example on the surface of a cylinder, ds=rdrdθ . For the helocoid, you can find a formula by relating the surface element to its projection on xy plane.
 
  • #100
For the helocoid, you can find a formula by relating the surface element to its projection on xy plane.
How can I do ?

Like the drawing ? maybe sin(a)+cos(a) ?

.
 

Attachments

  • helix projection.png
    helix projection.png
    10.4 KB · Views: 502
Last edited:
Back
Top