Understanding Kepler's 2nd Law: The Proof and Its Implications

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the proof of Kepler's 2nd law, focusing on the mathematical formulation and implications of the law in the context of orbital mechanics. Participants explore the relationships between area swept out by a planet, angular velocity, and the conservation of angular momentum, examining both the proof's validity and its underlying assumptions.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a formula for the area swept out by a planet, questioning its simplicity and correctness.
  • Another participant challenges the proof by asking why the expression (1/2)(r^2)dO/dt should be constant, given that Kepler's 2nd law states dA/dt = const.
  • A different participant introduces the concept of angular velocity (dO/dt = omega) and suggests that proving Kepler's law requires the conservation of angular momentum, implying a relationship between radius and angular velocity.
  • One participant reiterates their proof but critiques the initial equations as being incomplete, noting that both radius and angle are time-dependent in non-circular orbits.
  • This participant argues that Kepler's 2nd law emerges from Newton's laws under central force conditions and that the presented formula for areal speed is too general to derive Kepler's law without specifying the force involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the proof and the assumptions involved. There is no consensus on the correctness of the initial proof or the implications of the derived equations.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the radius is not constant in non-circular motion, which complicates the proof. The discussion highlights the need for specific force considerations when applying general formulas to derive Kepler's law.

Master J
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Is my proof of Kepler's 2nd law correct?


area of sector of circle/ellipse (that the planet sweeps out): (1/2)(r^2)O

O is theta!

dA/dO = (1/2) (r^2)

dA= (1/2) (r^2) dO

dA/dt = (1/2) (r^2) dO/dt

It can't be that simple? Can it??
 
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What have you proven? :) the second law states that dA/dt = const. why should (1/2) (r^2) dO/dt be a cnostant?
 
dO/dt=omega is the angular velocity of the orbital motion, so *once* that you prove Kepler's law (for which you need the conservation of angular momentum), your formula says that when you decrease r you increase omega... as in fact happens :)
 
Master J said:
Is my proof of Kepler's 2nd law correct?

dA= (1/2) (r^2) dO

dA/dt = (1/2) (r^2) dO/dt

It can't be that simple? Can it??

Is not. The derivative in respect to time is incomplete. The radius is not a constant unless is circular motion and then the problem is trivial anyway.

And the first three equations are a little bit redundant.
You have dA=1/2r^2*d(Theta) to start with. You cannot write the area itself this way (as a triangular segment) but only an infinitely small segment of area, dA.

Then you can take the the time derivative but both r and theta are time dependent.

Kepler's 2-nd law is a consequence of Newton's laws in the case of a central force. The above formula - for areal speed - is valid for any kind of motion, with any force. So it cannot give Kepler's law unless you introduce the specific force.

It's much easier to start with conservation of angular momentum - a consequence of central force motion.
 

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