Understanding Newton's 2nd Law for a Ball Thrown Up an Inclined Plane

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of Newton's second law to analyze the motion of a ball thrown up an inclined plane. Participants explore the mathematical modeling of the ball's trajectory, including the derivation of its position as a function of time and the calculation of the range on the inclined plane. The conversation includes both theoretical and mathematical reasoning.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses uncertainty about how to proceed with the problem after outlining the initial conditions and forces acting on the ball.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the mass of the ball is not necessary for determining its acceleration and suggests expressing gravitational acceleration in terms of the inclined axes.
  • A different participant provides a detailed breakdown of the forces acting on the ball in three dimensions and derives the equations of motion for both the x and y components.
  • One participant proposes a method to find the maximum range by differentiating the range function with respect to the launch angle and setting the derivative to zero.
  • Another participant mentions an alternative approach to finding the maximum range using trigonometric identities, noting that the range is undefined for a vertical incline.
  • A participant shares their curiosity about how the optimal launch angle changes when the terrain is sloped, providing a general method for solving the problem without specific numerical results.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the mathematical framework and the use of Newton's second law, but there are differing methods proposed for finding the maximum range and some uncertainty about the implications of the results. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the optimal launch angle on a slope.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the dependence on the definitions of angles and the coordinate system used, as well as the assumptions made regarding the absence of air resistance and the nature of the incline.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students or individuals interested in classical mechanics, particularly those studying projectile motion in non-horizontal terrains.

Dustinsfl
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I haven't taken a physics course in years so I am little lost.

A ball is thrown with initial speed $v_0$ up an inclined plane. The plane is inclined at an angle $\phi$ above the horizontal, and the ball's initial velocity is at an angle $\theta$ above the plane. Choose axes with $x$ measured up the slope, $y$ normal to the slope, and $z$ across it. Write down Newton's second law using these axes and find the ball's position as a function of time. Show that the ball lands a distance $R = \frac{2v_0^2\sin\theta\cos(\theta + \phi)}{g\cos^2\phi}$ from its launch point. Show that for given $v_0$ and $\phi$, the maximum possible range up the inclined plane is $R_{\max} = \frac{v_0^2}{g(1 + \sin\phi)}$.

Here is my drawing:
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2795/drawingw.jpg
Newton's $2^{\text{nd}}$ is $\vec{F} = m\vec{a}$ where we can write $\vec{F} = F_x\vec{x} + F_y\vec{y}$.
\begin{alignat*}{3}
F_x & = & m\ddot{x}\\
F_y & = & m\ddot{y}
\end{alignat*}

Now what should I do? Also, am I correct so far?
 
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what we are looking for is $x(t)$ and $y(t)$.

we're not interested in the mass of the ball, just its acceleration, which is independent of its mass (not "really" but we're assuming we are on the earth, and so close to the center of mass of the Earth that its gravitational force overwhelmingly predominates).

this is actually a differential equation in disguise: we're given an acceleration $\mathbf{g}$ and we want to find:

$\mathbf{r}(t) = (x(t),y(t))$

given that $\mathbf{\ddot{r}}(t) = \mathbf{g}$

as with any differential equation, to come up with a "specific" solution, we need to specify some initial values. we can set up our coordinate system so that:

$\mathbf{r}(0) = (0,0)$

and we are given that:

$\mathbf{\dot{r}}(0) = (v_0\cos\theta,v_0\sin\theta)$ <--no dependence on $t$, the ball is launched with a constant velocity.

the tricky part is expressing $\mathbf{g}$ in terms of the $x$- and $y$- axes. you may wish to confirm for yourself that:

$\mathbf{g} = (-g\sin\phi,-g\cos\phi)$

(my notation may be a bit off, it's been nearly 30 years).

we can solve this by integrating, obtaining:

$x(t) = (v_0\cos\theta)t - \left(\dfrac{g}{2}\sin\phi\right)t^2$
$y(t) = (v_0\sin\theta)t - \left(\dfrac{g}{2}\cos\phi\right)t^2$

to find where the ball lands, set $y(t) = 0$ and solve for $t$ (discount the solution $t = 0$, the launch point). plug this value into $x(t)$.

to find $R_{\max}$, regard $R$ as a function of $\theta$ and find $R'(\theta)$. set this equal to 0 and solve for $\theta$. then plug that value back into $R$. i could finish this for you, but it seems as if you'd like to do SOME of the work. :P
 
It's been many years since I had two semesters of physics, but here is the method I would use (clumsy as it may be). I show it in full as I presume you are to use vector calculus.

I would write (use the 3 given axes):

$\displaystyle \vec{F}=\vec{F_x}+\vec{F_y}+\vec{F_z}$

where:

$\displaystyle \vec{F_x}=m\frac{d^2x}{dt^2}=-mg\sin(\phi)$

$\displaystyle \vec{F_y}=m\frac{d^2y}{dt^2}=-mg\cos(\phi)$

$\displaystyle \vec{F_z}=m\frac{d^2z}{dt^2}=0$

and so:

$\displaystyle \frac{d^2}{dt^2}x(t)=-g\sin(\phi)\,\therefore\,\frac{dx}{dt}=-g\sin(\phi)t+v_0\cos(\theta)\,\therefore\,x(t)=-\frac{1}{2}g\sin(\phi)t^2+v_0\cos(\theta)t$

$\displaystyle \frac{d^2}{dt^2}y(t)=-g\cos(\phi)\,\therefore\,\frac{dx}{dt}=-g\cos(\phi)t+v_0\sin(\theta)\,\therefore\,y(t)=-\frac{1}{2}g\cos(\phi)t^2+v_0\sin(\theta)t$

$\displaystyle z(t)=0$

When the ball lands, then $\displaystyle y(t)=0$ where $\displaystyle t\ne0$ which implies:

$\displaystyle -\frac{1}{2}g\cos(\phi)t+v_0\sin(\theta)=0$ and so:

$\displaystyle t=\frac{2v_0\sin(\theta)}{g\cos(\phi)}$

The distance the balls lands from its launch point is then:

$\displaystyle x\left(\frac{2v_0\sin(\theta)}{g\cos(\phi)} \right)=-\frac{1}{2}g\sin(\phi)\left(\frac{2v_0\sin(\theta)}{g\cos(\phi)} \right)^2+v_0\cos(\theta)\left(\frac{2v_0\sin( \theta)}{g\cos(\phi)} \right)=$

$\displaystyle \frac{2v_0^2\sin(\theta)(\cos(\theta)\cos(\phi)-\sin(\theta)\sin(\phi))}{g\cos^2(\phi)}=\frac{2v_0^2\sin(\theta)\cos(\theta+\phi)}{g\cos^2(\phi)}$

Now, to find the maximum range, the only variable we have to play with is $\displaystyle \theta$, and so we want:

$\displaystyle R(\theta)=\frac{2v_0^2\sin(\theta)\cos(\theta+\phi)}{g\cos^2(\phi)}$

$\displaystyle \frac{dR}{d\theta}= \frac{2v_0^2}{g\cos^2(\phi)}\left(-\sin(\theta)\sin(\theta+\phi)+\cos(\theta)\cos( \theta+\phi) \right)$

Equating this to zero implies:

$\displaystyle \sin(\theta)\sin(\theta+\phi)=\cos(\theta)\cos( \theta+\phi)$

$\displaystyle \tan(\theta)=\cot(\theta+\phi)$

$\displaystyle \theta=\frac{\pi}{2}-(\theta+\phi)$

$\displaystyle \theta=\frac{\pi-2\phi}{4}$

and so we have:

$\displaystyle R_{\text{max}}=R\left(\frac{\pi-2\phi}{4} \right)=\frac{2v_0^2\sin\left(\frac{\pi-2\phi}{4} \right)\cos\left(\frac{\pi-2\phi}{4}+\phi \right)}{g\cos^2(\phi)}$

$\displaystyle \frac{2v_0^2\sin\left(\frac{\pi-2\phi}{4} \right)\cos\left(\frac{\pi+2\phi}{4} \right)}{g\cos^2(\phi)}$

Using the product to sum identity $\displaystyle \sin(A)\cos(B)=\frac{\sin(A+B)+\sin(A-B)}{2}$ we have:

$\displaystyle \frac{2v_0^2\left(\frac{\sin\left(\frac{\pi}{2} \right)-sin(\phi)}{2} \right)}{g\cos^2(\phi)}=\frac{v_0^2(1-\sin(\phi)}{g(1-\sin^2(\phi)}=\frac{v_0^2}{g(1+\sin(\phi))}$

edit: I guess with all my previews I didn't notice that a very similar method was already posted. (Tmi)
 
Last edited:
yes, that was the answer i was hinting at. z is irrelevant, so i omitted it from the calculations (all the action takes place in the xy-plane).

rather than use tangents and cotangents to solve $R'(\theta) = 0$

i find it is easier to observe that:

$\cos\theta\cos(\theta+\phi) - \sin\theta\sin(\theta+\phi) = \cos(2\theta + \phi)$

and that $\cos$ is injective on the range $[-\pi,\pi]$ (there are physical reasons for limiting ourselves to this range).

but the rest of what you posted is almost stroke-for-stroke what i have on my "scratch sheet".

interestingly enough, $R$ is undefined if $\phi = \dfrac{\pi}{2}$ leading one to suspect if you throw a ball away from a (vertical) wall at some angle $\theta$ it won't ever land on the wall at all (given, of course, a large enough room, and a "not-very-bouncy" ball)! who knew?
 
As a student, I was curious after having found that a launch angle of 45° above the horizontal maximizes the range of a projectile (constant gravity, no drag), what this optimal angle would be if the terrain was not horizontal, but sloped away at a constant angle. Here is how I solved it:

Suppose you are on flat ground and you launch a projectile from the ground at an angle of inclination above the horizontal $\displaystyle θ$ with an initial speed $\displaystyle v_0$. Ignoring drag (air resistance), what launch angle will maximize the projectile's range?

Let us orient an xy-coordinate plane coinciding with the projectile's motion, with the origin at the projectile's initial position. Let g represent the acceleration due to gravity. Resolving the projectile's acceleration into its vertical and horizontal components, we have:

$\displaystyle \frac{d^2}{dt^2}y(t)=-g,\,\frac{d}{dt}y(0)=v_0\sin(\theta),\,y(0)=0$

Solving the initial value problem gives:

$\displaystyle \frac{dy}{dt}=-gt+v_0\sin(\theta)$

$\displaystyle y(t)=-\frac{1}{2}gt^2+v_0\sin(\theta)t$

$\displaystyle \frac{d^2}{dt^2}x(t)=0,\,\frac{d}{dt}x(0)=v_0\cos(\theta),\,x(0)=0$

Solving the initial value problem gives:

$\displaystyle \frac{dx}{dt}=v_0\cos(\theta)$

$\displaystyle x(t)=v_0\cos(\theta)t$

Thus, we have the parametric equations describing the projectile's motion:

(1) $\displaystyle y(t)=-\frac{1}{2}gt^2+v_0\sin(\theta)t$

(2) $\displaystyle x(t)=v_0\cos(\theta)t$

To get y as a function of x, we need to eliminate the parameter t. Solving (2) for t, we get:

$\displaystyle t=\frac{x}{v_0\cos(\theta)}$

Substituting for t into (1) gives:

$\displaystyle y(x)=\tan(\theta)x-\frac{g}{2v_0^2\cos^2(\theta)}x^2$

To find the range of the projectile, we set $\displaystyle y=0$, and take the non-zero root for x:

$\displaystyle x=\frac{v_0^22\sin(\theta)\cos(\theta)}{g}$

Using the double-angle identity for sine, we have:

$\displaystyle x=\frac{v_0^2\sin(2\theta)}{g}$

We know that the sine function has its maximum value when its angle is $\displaystyle \frac{\pi}{2}$, thus:

$\displaystyle 2\theta=\frac{\pi}{2}\,\therefore\,\theta=\frac{ \pi}{4}$

So, we see a launch angle of 45° maximizes the range of the projectile.

What if, instead of being on flat terrain, we launch the projectile on a hill having constant slope? What angle do we use now? Let $\displaystyle -\frac{\pi}{2}<\alpha<\frac{\pi}{2}$ be the angle measured above the horizontal of the angle of the hillside. In the xy-plane we oriented before, the surface of the hill may be represented by the line:

$\displaystyle y=\tan(\alpha)x$

Recall we have:

$\displaystyle y(x)=\tan(\theta)x-\frac{g}{2v_0^2\cos^2(\theta)}x^2$

This gives:

$\displaystyle \tan(\alpha)x=\tan(\theta)x-\frac{g}{2v_0^2\cos^2(\theta)}x^2$

Since we disregard the root x = 0, we have:

$\displaystyle x=\frac{v_0^2}{g}\left(\sin(2\theta)-2\tan(\alpha)\cos^2(\theta) \right)$

Differentiating x with respect to θ, we have:

$\displaystyle \frac{dx}{d\theta}=\frac{2v_0^2}{g}\left(\cos(2 \theta)+\tan(\alpha)\sin(2\theta) \right)$

Equating to zero results in:

$\displaystyle \cos(2\theta)+\tan(\alpha)\sin(2\theta)=0$

$\displaystyle \tan(2\theta)=-\cot(\alpha)$

Using the identity $\displaystyle \tan\left(x+\frac{\pi}{2} \right)=-\cot(x)$ gives

$\displaystyle \cot\left(\theta-\frac{\pi}{2} \right)=\cot(\alpha)$

Equating angles gives:

$\displaystyle 2\theta-\frac{\pi}{2}=\alpha$

Solving for θ, we have:

$\displaystyle \theta=\frac{\pi}{4}+\frac{\alpha}{2}$

So we see we add half the angle of inclination of the hill to 45° to maximize the range of the projectile.
 
so, if you're shooting down-hill..."aim a little low"...and if you're on a wall, just drop the darn thing.
 

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