Vertical Wind Tunnels using green technology

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on the development of a vertical wind tunnel for indoor skydiving that utilizes green technology to minimize energy consumption. The original poster aims to design a 6-meter wide tunnel, which would require significantly more power than conventional designs, and seeks innovative solutions for energy reclamation from air movement. Participants emphasize the challenges of achieving energy efficiency while adhering to the laws of physics, noting that any energy generated must be balanced with energy used. Suggestions include exploring solar updraft towers and advanced fan technologies, though skepticism remains about the feasibility of entirely new inventions without substantial investment. The overarching goal is to create a sustainable model that showcases alternative energy solutions while reducing operational costs.
  • #51
boneh3ad said:
As a guy who runs a wind tunnel for a living, I tend to disagree that CFD has replaced wind tunnels, particularly on the research end of things.

That makes sense because you are in research. As someone who is in industry, it costs an obscene amount of money to run a tunnel vs run CFD. We have an entire group dedicated to CFD at my company (I am in their sister group, the hand calculation + design integration guys), we do experimental work only after we have numerically went through our best design solutions. Experimental stuff is great when you are pushing the boundaries on the problems you are solving (eg, things that have never been done before), and as someone who has a background in experimental aerodynamics I think it is much more fun than CFD, but being honest with myself CFD is pretty good for most conventional problems.
 
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  • #52
Yes, there is a lot of design that has been shifted to CFD rather than wind tunnels, but companies like Boeing, Lockheed, and Northrop still maintain a fairly large number of wind tunnels for a reason. We still do a really lousy job of predicting drag or heat transfer on a given shape, for example, so experiments are still important in the realm of T&E, not just research. That's the same reason the Air Force maintains so many facilities, e.g. AEDC.
 
  • #53
Are they hiring :)
 
  • #54
I know that AFRL is working on a new facility at AEDC for super- and hypersonic wind tunnels that is in expansion mode, but I don't know if they are currently hiring or if that is farther down the road. It also requires moving essentially to rural Tennessee, which is not a positive aspect of that facility. Lot's of cool plans, though.
 
  • #55
It always seems like the coolest things are in the dumpiest area of the country. I just got an offer for a PhD, but I am hesitant to take it because it is in crappy northern New York. I went to undergrad near the area..no thank you...dark and cold most of the year.

Anyway, back on topic: OP, give me your money and ill give you my data.
 
  • #57
Nice video, thanks! Don't mess with Mother Nature...
Sir Orangedog, what excites one may indeed bore another. I would note, however, that nothing in any field had been stagnant for a century, and I'm sure you are well aware of this.
And just what would my money get me? Certainly not century-old tech for VWTs.
I personally am intrigued and excited by this project. As you are all well aware, such an endeavour would "normally" eat energy and therefore money. When I have succeeded in my projects - I'm doing two VWTs in different countries, I will have advanced the techniques used currently come hell or high water.
Most businesses are quite willing to NOT push the envelope, so to speak, if they can see a decent profit using a tried and true methodology. I have no interest in this, that is what bores me!
I have only an interest in what excites me, and however well researched VWTs are over the years, I will innovate the process and set a new standard which we can discuss once completed.
The ongoing discussion in this forum I find quite stimulating and I therefore wish to convey my thanks and gratitude to everyone who has taken the time to participate. With friendly greetings from London to one and all...,
PD Chant
 
  • #58
One thing that concerns me is that I feel like you are greatly overestimating the market for vertical wind tunnels. I feel like the development cost here is going to be quite large, and then when all is said and done, you will likely have a hard time getting anyone to buy it to offset that cost.
 
  • #59
EDIT: This was responding to a post that was later deleted. I've edited it to reflect that.

My entire point is that using the solar updraft approach - which is where much of this discussion has focused - has several challenges. The first of these is due to the variable power reaching the surface from solar radiation throughout the course of the day. You will need to find way to mitigate this effect (which are, incidentally, the same issues facing many renewable energy technologies). That is not a cheap thing to do, and generally people cite improved battery technology as the solution to this dilemma. That isn't really available yet on a large scale, and what is available is extraordinarily expensive. If you want to avoid using fans, I suppose those batteries will need to power something like heaters under the collectors to make up for the lower heat from the sun at various times during the day. If you have several consecutive cloudy days (as is certainly common in London), then I suppose you could just run those heaters off of power from the normal electric grid. That wouldn't be terribly efficient.

The second issue is the massive structure that would be required. Solar updraft towers are generally huge, and to create a high velocity, you will need a very large collector. That translates to a very large cost both in construction and in land acquisition, and you certainly aren't going to fit it in a major city when the collector likely takes up multiple city blocks. This means your potential market has now shrunk to include only businesses who are willing to be located in suburbs or further out. This also doesn't account for building codes, as many cities and towns likely don't want a giant tower with a huge collector surrounding it to be nearby. It is an eyesore.

Finally, you haven't really stated why you think current technology is insufficient. Believe it or not, the photo posted above of the tunnel under construction in King of Prussia looks very efficient to me. Wind tunnels very frequently include 90-degree turns like that (look up closed-circuit wind tunnels), and that can be accomplished very efficiently using turning vanes. The fans are always placed downstream of the test section (or in this case the place where people will be) because the flow you get by "sucking" air through the test section is much more smooth than what you get by blowing it through. If you placed the fans below and blew air up, you would end up with a large amount of vorticity and turbulence and you would throw the "skydivers" all over the place in the tunnel.

So, why do you think the current state of the art needs to be replaced? You may have some altruistic motivation to try and make something new and more efficient, but businesses don't think that way. They are going to see a phenomenal up-front cost with effectively zero difference from the customers' perspective (i.e. they can't charge more than a conventional tunnel), and they will just pass and build a conventional tunnel instead. Why do you think this will not be the case? Do you have any other ideas that overcome the above challenges?
 
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  • #61
Thread will remain closed for now. @PD Chant you can PM me to make a case for re-opening the thread. Keep in mind that the PF is a mainstream scientific website, and we do not allow challenges to good engineering work. Engineering is about optimizations.
 
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