What force is preventing car wheel bolts from being removed?

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The discussion centers on the forces preventing the removal of car wheel bolts, highlighting the role of static friction at the threads and the normal force exerted by the bolt. Participants clarify that friction creates a torque that resists the applied force when attempting to loosen the bolt. The conversation emphasizes the importance of understanding the relationship between forces and torques, particularly in the context of a free body diagram. It is noted that the frictional forces at the nut and bolt interface contribute significantly to the difficulty of removing the bolts. Overall, the complexities of torque, friction, and force interactions are critical in understanding why wheel bolts can be challenging to remove.
  • #31
Nik_2213 said:
commercial tyre fitters often use pneumatic nut / bolt drivers for speed,
They are required, in the UK, to use a calibrated torque wrench for the final tightening. I have seen this in practice for several years now (state of the roads is much worse these days). The instructions also forbid the use of grease on the mating faces.
 
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  • #32
sophiecentaur said:
I can't disagree but the concept of Moments is introduced in Science Education well before Torque.
Is it? I would think they would be taught on the same day. Is this before or after learning about "couples"? Anyway, even if that's true, this problem would be the perfect setting to introduce the concept of torque. And:
If you take moments about the axis of the stud, you can ignore any force on that reference point. As a starter, I would say that the idea of an 'equivalent' tangential force would be more than acceptable when discussing the action of a wrench with students up to A Level. I think we tend to forget just how elementary, elementary means.
What you're now suggesting is to teach an unnecessary and potentially harmful skill/concept - how to pull forces and levers out of thin air and apply them to a problem - in order to avoid teaching a necessary one. How is that not counterproductive?

...actually, double-checking the definitions, the difference between "torque" and "moment" is purely functional; torque is an in-motion moment, whereas moments can be static or in motion. So this objection about the order of teaching is moot.
 
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  • #33
russ_watters said:
I would think they would be taught on the same day. Is this before or after learning about "couples"?
I think we are talking about different levels of teaching. The definition and the 'principle' of Moments comes long before Couples. You may be thinking in terms of your own education, as someone (a minority) who tended to find that most of early Physics made sense to you. Levers are much easier appreciated than gears by most students (adults too),
PS levers and seesaws, where the forces are all parallel are about as far as many people go. The "Perpendicular Distance" is a taxing idea, even for some A level students.
 
  • #34
sophiecentaur said:
I think we are talking about different levels of teaching. The definition and the 'principle' of Moments comes long before Couples.
That's a problem for your suggestion then, since your idea requires a couple.
 
  • #35
russ_watters said:
That's a problem for your suggestion then, since your idea requires a couple.
But not Explicitly. The word Couple is not actually necessary. It's actually quite a bit more sophisticated compared with introducing a Fulcrum and taking moments about it (with parallel forces mostly). People very often miss the requirement for the fulcrum to be fixed - or they just assume they can ignore it. Strangely, I was never asked the question "What about the force on the fulcrum?" That was one reason for my present opinion.
 
  • #36
In my personal experience, for what it can count, the concept of "moment of a force" was taught to us at school, the concept of "couple of forces" only at university. The concept of "torque" its'not much used in Italy.

--
lightarrow
 
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  • #37
I started a response to the OP, but it went off in a math-linguistic direction while I was still drawing my diagrams of wheel bolts!

What bothered me about the original post, was the F arrow - not because I didn't think there should be a force there in that direction, nor because I thought there should be a torque or couple or moment. But friction always opposes movement between two objects in contact and I couldn't see any relative movement at that point.
I can see that the downward force on the wrench, applied to the bolt, is trying to move the bolt down. But I thought that force would be opposed, upto more than anything you are likely to apply, by the vertical reaction of the hub. Even if the hub did rotate, say because the wheel slipped, the bolt and its housing would move together. The force through the centre of the bolt perpendicular to the hub radius would still be reaction, not friction.

But, of course, it is friction that is stopping the bolt from turning in its housing. So we need to show where this friction occurs.
wheelnut3.png

Despite previous discussion I've shown friction as a number of distinct arrows. It should be understood that friction occurs over the whole of the mating surfaces, so we could have an infinite number of little arrows, all pointing perpendicular to the radius at their point of action. Their sense will, as always with friction, be opposite to the direction of movement, or attempted movement until friction is overcome.

When we have linear (attempted) movement between two surfaces, all the little arrows point in the same direction - again opposite to the (attempted) movement. So the sum of them all is a single large arrow in that direction.
When the (attempted) movement is rotation, every little arrow has an opposite arrow on the other side of the disc, so the sum of all the little arrows is zero! There is no net force in any direction.

But all these little forces DO cause a net torque, moment, couple, or whatever you want to call it, about the centre of rotation.
Each little force multiplied by its radius give a turning force in the same direction, so these sum to a non-zero total.

As the previous discussion has said, we can't represent this torque with a single force, but we can represent it with a pair of equal and opposite forces acting at equal and opposite distances from the centre of rotation, ie a couple. (As shown on the left part of the diagram.)

Calculating (the limiting value of) this frictional torque is not quite so easy. I'll leave that* to the excellent mathematicians who've been arguing above.
But we shouldn't need to calculate: If we "torque" it up to 120 Nm when we fit the bolts, presumably that's about the torque we should need to reverse the process.

Here I've shown only the friction between the bolt head and the wheel/hub, but there will also be frictional torque on the threads. Again, since friction is always reactive, this torque will always add to the total frictional torque.

*(Literally on the back of an envelope, I got it to be ##T = \frac {2} {3} \frac {(R^3 - R_0^3)} {(R^2 - R_0^2)} μ F_N##
where ##F_N## is the normal force between the mating surfaces - here the bolt head and the wheel/hub
##μ## the coefficient of friction between these surfaces
##R## is half the outside diameter of the bolt head and ##R_0## half the inside diameter of the bolt head
and T does not include friction elsewhere, such as between the bolt threads and the hub.. )

BTW
russ_watters said:
It's an active topic of discussion in the moderator's forum.
It was a bit rhetorical. I thought most of the participants would have read it. I intended to suggest that some should perhaps bear it in mind when thinking about their contributions here.
 

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  • #38
Merlin3189 said:
When we have linear (attempted) movement between two surfaces, all the little arrows point in the same direction - again opposite to the (attempted) movement. So the sum of them all is a single large arrow in that direction.
If the arrows represent local friction forces, then they cannot point in the same direction, because friction is always parallel to the contact surface

Merlin3189 said:
When the (attempted) movement is rotation, every little arrow has an opposite arrow on the other side of the disc, so the sum of all the little arrows is zero! There is no net force in any direction.
Yes, but In the given case the friction on opposite sides don't have to be equal but opposite. They can produce a net torque and a net force.
 
  • #39
Disagree with first point - parallel vectors must point in the same direction, else they're not parallel.

Aggree with second point - I just tried to distinguish between the linear and rotational cases. Yes you could also have a mixture.
 
  • #40
Merlin3189 said:
Disagree with first point - parallel vectors must point in the same direction, else they're not parallel.
The point was that the friction forces are tangential to the curved contact surface, so they cannot all "point in the same direction".
 
  • #41
A.T. said:
The point was that the friction forces are tangential to the curved contact surface, so they cannot all "point in the same direction".
They don't have to be, and in this case they are not. @Merlin3189 correctly broke the problem apart into the linear force and the torque (a bunch of little tangential forces). Adding them together yields forces not tangential to the curves because the linear force is mostly not tangential. Or flipped over; the only places where the friction forces are tangential are along the horizontal line perpendicular to the vertical force...because that's the only place the vertical force is tangential to the curves.

Anyway, his explanation is why I'm opposed to showing the torque (moment) as anything but a torque. Showing it as a collection of linear forces adds assumptions and maybe even calculus for no reason...and opportunities for unnecessary confusion.
 
  • #42
russ_watters said:
the only places where the friction forces are tangential are along the horizontal line perpendicular to the vertical force
Friction forces are always tangential to the contact surface, per definition.
 
  • #43
A.T. said:
Friction forces are always tangential to the contact surface, per definition.
What definition? Are you using "tangential" in place of "parallel"? Please explain, because what you are saying does not make sense.
 
  • #44
russ_watters said:
What definition?
Friction is the component of the contact force that is tangential to the contact surface.
 
  • #45
A.T. said:
Friction is the component of the contact force that is tangential to the contact surface.
Again: are you sure you don't mean "parallel"? Surfaces are, by definition, flat, so they don't have tangents.

...and they also aren't "a component of the contact force"; they are perpendicular to the contact force.
 
  • #46
russ_watters said:
Again: are you sure you don't mean "parallel"? Surfaces are, by definition, flat, so they don't have tangents.

...and they also aren't "a component of the contact force"; they are perpendicular to the contact force.
The "contact force" can include normal components. The pressure of a book on a table or the tension of a drop of glue hanging from the ceiling.
 
  • #47
jbriggs444 said:
The "contact force" can include normal components. The pressure of a book on a table or the tension of a drop of glue hanging from the ceiling.
Ok, I was thinking from the usage that the "contact force" was only the normal component. And then friction is a separate parallel force. But if both are combined into a single resultant "contact force", ok...

...with that word usage issue aside, then...not sure where that leaves us. Still not sure about "parallel" vs "tangential"...
 
  • #48
russ_watters said:
Surfaces are, by definition, flat, so they don't have tangents.

First, surfaces don't have to be flat--what about the surface of a ball?

Second, flat surfaces do have tangents; they just happen to be parallel to the surface. So a simple solution to the conundrum you have set yourself here is to just interpret "tangential" to mean "parallel" for flat surfaces (which, as I understand it, is exactly what mathematicians in fact do).
 
  • #49
PeterDonis said:
First, surfaces don't have to be flat--what about the surface of a ball?

Second, flat surfaces do have tangents; they just happen to be parallel to the surface. So a simple solution to the conundrum you have set yourself here is to just interpret "tangential" to mean "parallel" for flat surfaces (which, as I understand it, is exactly what mathematicians in fact do).
Ok, so parallel = tangential in the case of a flat surface, which we have here.

So then a linear applied force is opposed by a linear friction force, parallel to the surface of the nut, right? And:
A.T. said:
If the arrows represent local friction forces, then they cannot point in the same direction, because friction is always parallel to the contact surface.
In the case of a linear force applied to the nut, the elements of friction force are parallel to each other and pointed in the opposite direction (same direction as each other). Right?
 
  • #50
russ_watters said:
a linear applied force is opposed by a linear friction force, parallel to the surface of the nut, right?

It's a little complicated because there is not a single flat "surface of the nut"; this case is not as simple as the case of, say, pushing a heavy block along a rough floor.

First, the force exerted by the wrench socket on the hex head of the nut that causes the nut to turn is not parallel to the side of the hex head that a given point on the wrench is in contact with. If it were, the side of the hex head would just slide along itself, not rotate. The force exerted by the wrench at a given point on the hex head is at an angle to that side of the hex head.

Second, the friction force that opposes the motion of the nut is not exerted along the hex head; it's exerted along the threads. The thread surface is a helix, not a flat plane. The force exerted by the wrench on the hex head has to be transmitted through the nut to get the nut as a whole to move; and the friction along the threads opposes that motion. At a given point on the threads, the motion of the nut and the friction force are both collinear (and in opposite directions, yes), but the line along which they act is not in the same plane as the plane of rotation of the hex head; it is tilted at an angle that depends on the thread pitch. This line is tangent to the surface of the thread at the chosen point, but since the thread is not a flat plane, the word "parallel" is not really appropriate in this case.
 
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  • #51
ChessEnthusiast said:
Let's say we want to change a wheel in a car. We want to remove bolts fastening the wheel using this tool:
View attachment 230237
I have also drawn a diagram of the forces in operation:
View attachment 230238

Now, from experience, I can say that the point of rotation of the wrench will be the blue point. Now, trying to determine the torque relative to that point leaves us with a net torque anticlockwise (friction gets canceled out).

Yet, we know that removing these bolts requires some effort. Therefore, there either are more forces in action or the axis of rotation I chose is incorrect (or both)

What am I missing?

If this is a 'real world' problem and not a sterile academic assignment then you are probably missing the fact that corrosion has actually fused the nut to the bolt; and, until you can apply enough force to actually shear the metallic bond then no other forces are going to come into play.
 
  • #52
Just a somewhat humorous note. One time I had to remove the lug nuts to change a flat tire. I put the now standard right angled lug wrench on the lug and could not move the wrench. I ended up standing on it (my 170 lb) and with a flexing jump snapped the wrench into two pieces. Now those were tight lug nuts.
 
  • #53
WHEEL NUT.jpg

Point of clarification:
As shown in the above image, when the lug nut is tightened there is a frictional interface between the lug nut and the lug bolt threads. The tighter the nut the greater the friction between the two.

The lug nut should be tightened just enough to take full advantage of this frictional force without over-stressing the lug bolt’s tensile properties. This is achieved by applying the proper tightening torque using the proper wrench for the job as per the car’s specifications.Also note the bevel on the end of the lug nut. It is designed to fit into a corresponding taper in the wheel rim. This causes the wheel to be centered on the lug bolts and removes any sloppiness (play) between the wheel rim and the hub. There must be some sloppiness to allow the wheel to be fitted over the multiple lug bolts. However, this sloppiness can not be allowed in the working interface between the wheel rim and hub because, under the right conditions, any slight movement between the two will ,over time, loosen the lug nut. Note: Most cars have right hand threaded lug bolts fitted to one side of the vehicle and left hand threaded lugs fitted to the other side to help prevent loosening of the lug nuts. As long as the lug nut is clamping the rim to the hub (it is tight), there is also friction at the rim-lug nut-hub interface (On the tapered portion and at the very end of the lug nut).

So, to remove the lug nut, one must therefore overcome the frictional forces on the threads and between the lug nut-rim tapered interface using a moment or torque. (Foot-pounds).
With corrosion these forces can be immense.
 

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  • #54
AZFIREBALL said:
Most cars have right hand threaded lug bolts fitted to one side of the vehicle and left hand threaded lugs fitted to the other side to help prevent loosening of the lug nuts.
Is that true? I've never had a car like that.
 
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  • #55
I may have been stretching it a little when I said “most”. I was thinking US cars in the 50’s and 60’s.
 
  • #56
AZFIREBALL said:
I was thinking US cars in the 50’s and 60’s.
Ah, interesting. I wonder how many lug bolts had to get stripped before they standardized on the same threads on both sides of the car. :smile:

I know the countershaft sprocket bolt on most motorcycles has left-hand threads (for the reason you mention). But usually the folks who work on motorcycles know to expect that.
 
  • #57
I've always wondered how those little cotter pins can guarantee a wheel in place. Seems to me a loose wheel, or a misaligned hub grinding a pin, could easily pop it off. I keep getting reassured that such friction torque cannot exist.
 
  • #58
Normally a cotter-pin is not used on wheel lug bolts. They ARE used however to insure the large nut holding the front wheel bearings onto the spindle do not come off.

The cotter-pin is a safety device that prevents the bearing ‘jam’/preload nut from coming completely off the spindle should wear or disintegration of the wheel bearings take place. Once the nut becomes loose there is little or no torque force available to unscrew the nut farther or cause shearing of the cotter-pin by the nut. Plus, there is a large/thick washer, keyed to the spindle with a tab, to prevent rotation, that isolates the nut from the outer bearing race rotation, should it occur.
 
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  • #60
Tom.G:

The links you supplied provides all the info. one would need to understand the relationship between torque and bolt tightening.

One key point to consider in applying torque to a fastener using a given specification
is weather the torque is to be applied to a DRY or WET connection.

It is plain to see that applying the torque specified for a DRY (none lubricated bolt and nut) connection to a WET (lubricated bolt and nut) connection will result in too much torque being applied, thus possibly elongating (or breaking) the bolt or distorting the threads.

I think the torque spec. for tightening the lug bolts on a automobile are generally specified for a DRY connection.

To clarify, applying 50 foot-pounds of torque to a WET connection does not stress the bolt the same as applying 50 foot-pounds to a DRY connection because of the difference in the coefficient of frictional between a WET and DRY connection. In a DRY connection, a great deal of the torque applied is used in overcoming the high frictional component.
 
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