What is the mechanism behind the heating of the Earth's core?

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The discussion centers on the mechanisms behind the heating of the Earth's core, with participants exploring various theories. Some suggest that the core's heat is primarily due to residual heat from the Earth's formation and the decay of naturally occurring radioactive isotopes. Others propose that gravitational forces and molecular vibrations could play a role, although this idea is met with skepticism. The conversation also touches on the complexities of heat retention in planetary bodies, with comparisons to gas giants like Jupiter and the influence of their unique compositions. Ultimately, there is no consensus on the exact sources of the Earth's core heat, highlighting the ongoing debate in geophysical sciences.
  • #51
If you go to any gasoline station you will find the gas pump 'tagged' with a "volume adjusted" labelling. Here, at this latitude, it reads "Volume temperature compensated to 15° C", this is due to the simple fact that the planet is 'heated' proven by its generation of a consistant temperature, just under the surface, (About 8' down here) of 15° C, over the entire YEAR! (without an great fluctuations)

There is a gradient of temperature as you press down into the earth, it is measurable in feet/meters (whatever you like) but it is a consistant rise in temperature over distance in. It is proven by what has been shown on television, from the deep mines in Africa, about a mile and a half down, a thermometer pressed against the mine's walls showed a temperature of 56° C (Hot enough for ya?)

That gravity is involved in the heating was once discussed in "Astro and Cosmo" in the thread "Proof of the Cause of Gravity", by myself, et al.
 
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  • #52
Fully correct Mr Robin,

However there is also an idea that the heat in the crust could be radiogenic:

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/radsafe/9512/msg00248.html

3. More radiogenic heat is produced from the granitic continental crust, which contains higher concentrations of the radioactive elements and is thicker than the basaltic oceanic crust.
(...)
6. Some scientists believe that natural nuclear reactors such as the one at Oklo in Gabon, Africa (Draganic and others, 1990) were much more common during early Earth history. These reactors may have raised radioactive levels at many places on the earth. During early Earth history fissionable U-235 made up about 25% of the uranium. Today U-235 makes up only about 3/4 of one percent of uranium due to its shorter half-lifel (0.7 billion years)

Nereid
I'd appreciate you're opinion on this one:

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30992
 
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  • #53
"something"?

Andre wrote: I still think that almost nothing times almost infinity can still add up to something.
That's why an OOM calculation is a good place to start! You could even approach it from the other direction - since we know the rate of heat loss from the inner Earth (i.e. not counting any latent effects of absorbed solar radiation), your idea has to come up with a number that's between ~0.01 and 100 times this value (at the OOM stage, it's OK to work with a couple of powers of ten). You say you know the timescale for the effect you propose, you know the mass of the Earth (and its components), and you can work out the forces with only a very small envelope. That leaves only one unknown (maybe two). At this level of accuracy, does the answer seem realistic?
 
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  • #54
Originally posted by Andre
(SNIP)[/color] However there is also an idea that the heat in the crust could be radiogenic: (SNoP)[/color]
Yes!, I agreed that there is radioactive heating, just that it didn't seem that that was the 'only method' of heating that was involved in the "whole process of heating". Heck "working a plastic" will cause the 'plastic' to heat...gravity is involved as well though, just it isn't 'current theory'.

What is the 'Randi' connection, don't get it?
 
  • #55
What is the 'Randi' connection, don't get it?

Well I posted that thread about the "death" hypothesis of Venus in the skeptic lions den over there either to fortify it or have it falsified.

There is a lot about general planets heat in that hypothesis. Hence the connection.

Have tried the thread here also but there was little interest at that moment. Like me to try again?
 
  • #56
Originally posted by Andre
Well I posted that thread about the "death" hypothesis of Venus in the skeptic lions den over there either to fortify it or have it falsified.
There is a lot about general planets heat in that hypothesis. Hence the connection.
Have tried the thread here also but there was little interest at that moment. Like me to try again?
Not particularily... the re-facing of the planet, 500K years back, is not an indication of its death, merely an event that we have yet to determine the origin thereof.

Venus is apparenlty devoid of any real amounts of water, contained within the rock, there, unlike here, where the rock (apparently) contains significant amounts of water, water moderates temperatures really, really well. (It's the benchmark of "Specific Heat")

As I have stated above, gravity is involved in the heating, just that it is not a responce you will find in current theory, not to the best of my knowledge....
 
  • #57
the re-facing of the planet, 500K years back, is not an indication of its death, merely an event that we have yet to determine the origin thereof.

Well that's exactly what I propose. The big precession brake halted the planet and heated it intensely, causing the surface to melt partially or as a whole.

Venus is apparently devoid of any real amounts of water, contained within the rock, there,

Exactly, indicating that the temperatures rose over 1100 degrees celsius causing limestone (CaCO3) to reduce to CaO and CO2, the latter caused the dense atmosphere (CO2). The former, CaO is abundant in the lithosphere (7%).

The envellope is almost ready.
 
  • #58
How it heated?? a "precession brake" you say, I'm not sure if it's that, there are other venues and mannerisms of the universe's operation that are, as yet, undiscovered, especially in the 'heat'ing departement. (I suspect)

Could have been a type of 'fissile', of 'fusile', 'burp' for all anyone currently knows of the interior operations of planetary bodies.

Heated? yes! it was, (seems to have been) but the 'how' is, as yet I suspect, unsolved.
 
  • #59
Well, again Mr Robin, I think I solved that problem. This is it:
This is Venus:
The atmosphere consists mainly of carbon dioxide (the same gas that produces fizzy sodas), droplets of sulfuric acid, and virtually no water vapor - not a great place for people or plants! In addition, the thick atmosphere allows the Sun's heat in but does not allow it to escape, resulting in surface temperatures over 450 °C, hotter than the surface of the planet Mercury, which is closest to the Sun. The high density of the atmosphere results in a surface pressure 90 times that of Earth, which is why probes that have landed on Venus have only survived several hours before being crushed by the incredible pressure. In the upper layers, the clouds move faster than hurricane- force winds on Earth.

Venus sluggishly rotates on its axis once every 243 Earth days, while it orbits the Sun every 225 days - its day is longer than its year! Besides that, Venus rotates retrograde, or "backwards," spinning in the opposite direction of its orbit around the Sun. From its surface, the Sun would seem to rise in the west and set in the east.

Earth and Venus are similar in density and chemical compositions, and both have relatively young surfaces, with Venus appearing to have been completely resurfaced 300 to 500 million years ago.

The surface of Venus is covered by about 20 percent lowland plains, 70 percent rolling uplands, and 10 percent highlands. Volcanism, impacts, and deformation of the crust have shaped the surface. No direct evidence of currently active volcanoes has been found,..
We can tie all those boldface features to a single event, the big precession brake.

How Venus died

We start assuming that Venus was a normal planet just like Earth. There are many differences however, for instance, Venus seems not to have a liquid outer core today. It is unknown if it has had one before but using the analogy with Earth we assume that it did. So let's first look at a hypothetical normal planet with mostly Earth-like features assuming Earth is the standard, not Venus.

The outer core of such a standard planet can be fluid mass, due to the high temperature. However, the inner core of a planet is solid again due to the immense pressure it is subjected to, in spite of the temperatures. In the core is a equilibrium between those two opposing tendencies.

It is spinning around the sun and spinning around its axis in a much similar way with same order of magnitude parameters. By spinning the planet behaves as a gyroscope or spinning top and can be subject to changes in spin axis direction by precession.

Just like Earth this juvenile planet Venus also has precession of the equinoxes due to a certain obliquity and the sun and (perhaps a possible moon) having a differential gravity pull on the equatorial bulge.
see also
http://www.copernican-series.com/precession.html
http://cse.ssl.berkeley.edu/lessons...th_precess.html
on precession

Other planets are also in precession, there is no moon required for that, just gravity, generally here is the math behind the idea:
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/phy...Precession.html

Now we assume the planet to be a single unit, a single gyroscope with a single mechanical reaction. But it isn’t. The mantle and the solid inner core could be pretty much independent gyroscopes, with different characteristix, tied together by a fluid outer core.

I think we can assume from the mechanism that the sun-moon gravity force that generates the precession, is basically working on the equatorial bulge and hence on the lithosphere/mantle.

Now does the precession also work on the solid inner core? It may have an equatorial bulge. However, due to non-linear relationships, the precession logic of the inner core must differ from the mantle-crust precession. (see also Correia et al part I, 3.2) Hence the inner core has a tendency to change its spin axis in relation to the mantle crust due to dissimilar precession tendencies.

Note that the precession itself actually rotates spinning axis and hence it is changing the vector direction of the angular momentum. External forces, like gravity between celestial bodies transfer momentum this way.

The fluid outer core couples the motions of both solid systems. To keep spin axis aligned, the fluid outer core has to transmit these precession movements from mantle to the solid inner core somehow, like a torque converter in a transmission gear of a car. It contains some natural mechanic and perhaps magnetic stabilising properties to correct for that drifting motion, as we see no problems on Earth today, but its stabilising capacity is limited and can only physically control a limited angular momentum.

The size of the solid inner core is a function of amount of heat and pressure. The high temperature leads to liquefying and the high pressure leads to solidifying. But as the planet is cooling the amount of heat is decreasing and hence the solid inner core is expanding while the outer core is shrinking. The turning momentum of the inner core is of a tremendous value and the inner core grows, it’s increasing its angular momentum rapidly, to the fifth power of the radius, if I'm right

As the core grows its angular momentum increases beyond stabilization, eventually its precession drift will break alignment of the spinning axis. This causes heavy turbulence in the fluid outer core affecting the motion of the mantle and the inner core and it also generates drag and heat. The heat may have partially liquefied the solid inner core, decreasing it’s angular momentum and reversing the whole process back to stability. When the precesssion cycle is completed, realigment and stabilisation can occur again. However cooling continued and the inner core precession break out would occur again and this process may repeat over and over again until the spinning stops eventually.

Note that the growing misalignment of the spin axis causes the vector sum of the angular momentums of the mantle and the core to decrease, whilst angular momentum is transferred via external gravity forces to the infering celetial body during the precession. The actual transfer of momentum becomes visible only after the realignment, when a precession cycle is complete. There is no momentum loss, just momentum transfer over billions of years

The generated heat will be transmitted throughtout the whole planet, facilitated by the increased heat transport capability of the turbulent fluid outer core, causing the planet to melt partially or as a whole. Due to the heat convection the planets surface would be renewed by convection of material. As the heat would exceed general melting temperature it would also enough to cause limestone to decompose into calcium oxide and carbon dioxide that happens around 1100 degrees celsius. The carbon dioxide would escape from the lithosphere via the characteristic dome volcanoes (pancakes) to form a dense atmosphere. After the precession induced rotation stop, a very hot planet would remain with a dense carbon dioxide atmosphere. It would cool only very slowly as the carbon dioxide works as an isolation blanket and also retains solar heat due to greenhouse effect.

Due to interaction of the dense atmosphere with the sun stable equilibrium will emerge eventually.
Correia and Laskar (A Correia and J Laskar 2001 Nature 411 767) found that the rotation can only end in four possible spin states. Such planets can have either retrograde or 'prograde' rotation and its rotation axis may or may not have flipped during the turbulent precession braking event.

Venus has retrograde rotation now, but a flip of its rotation axis may not be likely. Most initial conditions will drive the spin of Venus towards its present state. The resulting slow spin sets a scenario for the retrograde stable motion purely from atmospheric and internal phenomena

In the mean time we have addressed all enigmatic features,

1: the rotation stop as a combination of the big precession brake and the Correia atmospheric drag mechanism
2: the resurfacing due to a tremendous heat generated by the hot brake, partially melting the planet.
3: the dense carbon dioxide atmosphere as all the carbon was forced out the lithosphere by chemical processes under the extreme heat.
4: the heat itself as residual from the disaster that seems to have ended 500 million years ago.
 
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  • #60
Lets see, this thread is about the heating of the Earth's core, not on your (pet) theory of just how Venus became resurfaced 1/2 million years back...right?

As for the "relatively young surface" of the Earth, so far in my life I have had the opportunity to have been in two of the places where the theory of plate tectonics came into development and then acceptance, one in the Yukon, the other in Newfoundland.

The one in the Yukon, a rift valley (sort of) was estimated to be amongst the oldest of terrestrial rocks on the face of the planet, at around 4.2 to 4.5 billion years old, so the idea of a "relatively new face" on the earth, is just kinda wrong(?)?
(at least in those places, it is!)
 
  • #61
Well, if this pet hypothesis has some merit, it would have some potential for a paradigm shift and not only for Venus, since the same mechanisms are working on Earth. So we're back on track ..eh thread.
 
  • #62
P.S. your #2 gives a "partial melting of the planet's surface" but studies show that the entire surface was done over as they can find NO impact craters older then about 1/2 million years old.

You need enough heating to melt the entire face of the planet, and probably 'plus some' then too!
 
  • #63
Originally posted by Andre
Well, if this pet hypothesis has some merit, it would have some potential for a paradigm shift and not only for Venus, since the same mechanisms are working on Earth. So we're back on track ..eh thread.
Only sorta, as you answer explains a/the makeover, (of Venus) not the mechanisms of regular, and consistent, heating, as the age of the planet implies the requirement that there be a heating source .
 
  • #64
Right. In the narrative I was cautious:
causing the planet to melt partially or as a whole
just to leave options open. I should have repeated that in the conclusions.

The turning energy of Earth is enough to heat it several 10,000 degrees.
 
  • #65
not the mechanisms of regular, and consistent, heating, as the age of the planet implies the requirement that there be a heating source.

The heat source is drag within the fluid outer core. The mechanism on Venus is dead as there is no more rotation. On Earth it has just began very hesistantly and intermittently.
 
  • #66
Originally posted by Andre
The heat source is drag within the fluid outer core. The mechanism on Venus is dead as there is no more rotation. On Earth it has just began very hesistantly and intermittently.
Uhmm, got a reference for that one, cause of what I have read the solid inner core is turning slightly differentially to the outer liquid core, measurable in a human lifetime.

As for it being the 'drag' as you state, needs better proving...(?)
 
  • #67
As for it being the 'drag' as you state, needs better proving...(?)

Absolutely. It's another pet hypothesis but let's say highly controversial. Let's suppose that the mechanism of wandering solid inner cores due to differential precession has happened already on Earth for brief period(s) what would we expect to find?

For one, a much hotter inner Earth than could be expected of natural causes. And we may be looking at that.

But there may be many more effects that we are looking at too, but don't understand.
 
  • #68
In some of what I had read, recently, there was a mention of the cores rotation, "precession" I'm not certain that it was pegged as that or that there was metion of that and it's calculated effects, (but I will, {God willing} if I have the chance, go re-read it for that) but the reality is that there is an ongoing 'differential rotation' of the solid inner core, and it (the solid inner core) is thought to be plating itself, there is evidence of such, (althought I haven't seen it, I'd still give it the benefit of the doubt because of the source) hence the current status would probably be seen as "cooling off". Any 'precessional force' acting upon it, would (probably) simply be "back-timing its thermal history".
 
  • #70
Interesting but I went and did the re-read and the talk of a 1% precessional rate that allows the solid inner core to rotate once extra, within the planet, every ~400 years.

So where is the tremendous force that is needed to cause that to brake hard enough as to cause to arise enough friction induced heat as to melt of the surface of a planet?

(cause it takes LOTS of heat to do that)
 
  • #71
It is building very gradually just a bit in analogy like this:

http://www.astronomynotes.com/gravappl/s10.htm

The differential gravity pull of Earth and Moon as in the third figure shows an example of exchange of momentum. Similar to the process of the moon, the assymetric gravity on the previous equatorial bulge of Venus pulls the planet ahead of its orbit, resulting in a slow spiral outwards. As the radius of the orbit increases the angular momentum of its spin transfers to the orbit of the planet.

Parameters are quite different of course and the process with Venus was likely more complicated. A tidal bulge is much smaller than a planets equatorial bulge.

I propose the next process:
In case of precession, the angular momentum vector is changing direction. Looking at the vector compounds in two dimensions, transfer of momentum takes place in both dimension and back when a precession cycle is completed. The sun in the Earth precession cycle gravity interactions "takes"a proportional part of the momentum in the first stage of the precession cycle in one dimension and "gives it back" in the final stage, transferring it between the two dimensions. However it is possible that a part of the momentum vector, that of the core, is getting misaligned. Then this process of transferring momentum between the dimensions is only taking place on the mantle part of the angular momentum. With diverging vectors the numerical vector is always less than that of the components. When the core and mantle realign in a chaotic process, dissipating a lot of energy, then the momentum at that moment is fixed at a lesser value and when the gravity interaction "gives" momentum back, it is still proportional, to the lesser value. So not all spinning momentum is retransferred. An this went on for millions perhaps billions of years repeating the process about every 100,000 years.
 
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  • #72
Well, as I had said, the article I had read told of the precession acting in a manner as to Cool the Earth, the (suspected) 'plating' being evidence of a cooling process occurring at present.

Slowing that down would simply slow down the Cooling, but does not generate enough heat to melt out the surface, not to the best of my knowledge.

As for your invocation of a need of 'dimensionality', matter is in 3 D, acts in 3 D, unless you can demonstrate your 'dimensional crossing' as a realistic method of what, "energy transfer" you said?

Sound like you have it all worked out in your head, if it is the right answer, others will recognize it/that, otherwise you'll probably find lots of people telling you you need to learn 'this' 'that' 'something else'...
 
  • #73
FYI

I had seen this article published May 8th somewhere else,


http://www.nature.com/nsu/030505/030505-5.html
Potassium heated Earth's core
"The iron-rich core contains lots of radioactive potassium, which generates heat as it decays, say V. Rama Murthy, of the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis, and colleagues. This supplements the heat still in the Earth's bowels from its fiery formation 4.5 billion years ago."

Now I see a new article, 10 December 2003:
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/12/10_heat.shtml
Radioactive potassium may be major heat source in Earth's core
excerpt
"Balancing the heat generated in the core with the known concentrations of radiogenic isotopes has been difficult, however, and the missing potassium has been a big part of the problem. One researcher proposed earlier this year that sulfur could help potassium associate with iron and provide a means by which potassium could reach the core.

The experiment by Lee and Jeanloz shows that sulfur is not necessary. Lee combined pure iron and pure potassium in a diamond anvil cell and squeezed the small sample to 26 gigapascals of pressure while heating the sample with a laser above 2,500 Kelvin (4,000 degrees Fahrenheit), which is above the melting points of both potassium and iron. She conducted this experiment six times in the high-intensity X-ray beams of two different accelerators - Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory's Advanced Light Source and the Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Laboratory - to obtain X-ray diffraction images of the samples' internal structure. The images confirmed that potassium and iron had mixed evenly to form an alloy, much as iron and carbon mix to form steel alloy.

In the theoretical magma ocean of a proto-Earth, the pressure at a depth of 400-1,000 kilometers (270-670 miles) would be between 15 and 35 gigapascals and the temperature would be 2,200-3,000 Kelvin, Jeanloz said.

"At these temperatures and pressures, the underlying physics changes and the electron density shifts, making potassium look more like iron," Jeanloz said. "At high pressure, the periodic table looks totally different."

"The work by Lee and Jeanloz provides the first proof that potassium is indeed miscible in iron at high pressures and, perhaps as significantly, it further vindicates the computational physics that underlies the original prediction," Bukowinski said. "If it can be further demonstrated that potassium would enter iron in significant amounts in the presence of silicate minerals, conditions representative of likely core formation processes, then potassium could provide the extra heat needed to explain why the Earth's inner core hasn't frozen to as large a size as the thermal history of the core suggests it should."

Jeanloz is excited by the fact that theoretical calculations are now not only explaining experimental findings at high pressure, but also predicting structures.

"We need theorists to identify interesting problems, not only check our results after the experiment," he said. "That's happening now. In the past half a dozen years, theorists have been making predictions that experimentalists are willing to spend a few years to demonstrate." "
 
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  • #74
I have read that the usual "leap second" correction that has been added almost yearly for the last 20 years to make up for the difference in the Earth's rotation versus the atomic clock standard has not been required in the last five years.

Would this imply that the Earth's rotation has increased? Could this be due to a contraction of the Earth's core? If so would this cause tension along tectonic plates and an increase in earthquake activity?

I would be pleased to read the groups thoughts about the questions posed here.
 
  • #75
Originally posted by DAvidM
I have read that the usual "leap second" correction that has been added almost yearly for the last 20 years to make up for the difference in the Earth's rotation versus the atomic clock standard has not been required in the last five years.
Would this imply that the Earth's rotation has increased? Could this be due to a contraction of the Earth's core? If so would this cause tension along tectonic plates and an increase in earthquake activity?
I would be pleased to read the groups thoughts about the questions posed here.
Perhaps you should start a new thread on it??
 
  • #76
The Earth's solid core is supposed to be spinning a bit faster than the crust/mantle daily 2/3 second x 365 days in a year means the inner core is gaining on the outer part of the planet about 4 minutes!
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/1996/0830/d.html
"The inner core rotates in the same direction as the Earth and slightly faster, completing its once-a-day rotation about two-thirds of a second faster than the entire Earth. Over the past 100 years that extra speed has gained the core a quarter-turn on the planet as a whole, the scientists found. Such motion is remarkably fast for geological movements -- some 100,000 times faster than the drift of continents, they noted. The scientists made their finding by measuring changes in the speed of earthquake-generated seismic waves that pass through the inner core. "
 
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  • #77
Originally posted by NileQueen
The Earth's solid core is supposed to be spinning a bit faster than the crust/mantle daily 2/3 second x 365 days in a year means the inner core is gaining on the outer part of the planet about 4 minutes!
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/1996/0830/d.html
"The inner core rotates in the same direction as the Earth and slightly faster, completing its once-a-day rotation about two-thirds of a second faster than the entire Earth. Over the past 100 years that extra speed has gained the core a quarter-turn on the planet as a whole, the scientists found. Such motion is remarkably fast for geological movements -- some 100,000 times faster than the drift of continents, they noted. The scientists made their finding by measuring changes in the speed of earthquake-generated seismic waves that pass through the inner core. "
Thanks for the backup of what was said, on the previous page (7)
 
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  • #79
Originally posted by Nereid
This question (or something very similar) was also raised in the Astronomy board:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11993
Followed the links nice articles, but not really about the "heating of the Earth's core", now is it, it is about time, and there is another thread somewheres on the same subject...time...
 
  • #80
Mr Parsons wrote: but not really about the "heating of the Earth's core", now is it, it is about time, and there is another thread somewheres on the same subject...time...
However, the topic of the 'leap seconds', and their possible relationship to the Earth's rotation rate, plate tectonics, etc was the subject of several posts just a little earlier ...
 
  • #81
Yup, one rotation more, about every 400 years, no doubt there are friction forces there, but the addition to the heating, from that, well, we would need "do the Math" to know better just how accountable that factor is...

As for the rest...?

(Hint..."Fuse Ball")
 
  • #82
Livermore scientists unveil melting point of iron

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-01/dlnl-lsu012104.php

LIVERMORE, Calif. -- Two scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory have discovered that iron in Earth-core conditions melts at a pressure of 225 GPa (or 32 million pounds per square inch) or about 5,100 kelvins (8,720 degrees Fahrenheit).
Determining the melting point of iron is essential to determine the temperatures at core boundaries and the crystal structure of the Earth's solid inner core. To date, the properties of iron at high pressure have been investigated experimentally through laser-heated diamond anvil cells, shock compression techniques and theoretical calculations...
 
  • #83
Very late into this topic. But I have another theory concerning the presence issue of heat at the Earth's core.

The Moon.

That is because the Moon's tidal influence on the Earth does not end at the ocean floors. For just as the Moon orbits around the Earth, the Earth in its turn is effectively wobbled on its axis by the moon.

I do not have the exact figures regarding the Earth's rotational displacement, but like water that rolls around the inside of a glass when you give it a little circular momentum, so too the Moon causes the Earth's liquid interior to wobble and occilate in line with the Moon's passing.

I have never seen a model for this interaction, but I would be pretty sure that such an effect generates side-real friction tides inside the Earth's core, which in turn generate heat between the zones.

As for comparison to Venus and Mars, well we should include Mercury in this scenario, because then we can note that only the Earth has such a sizable moon in orbit around it.

So, maybe just maybe the Moon is the hidden factor in all of this.

Aqua
 
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  • #84
I also add this link to some interesting stuff about the Moon.

http://www.enviroliteracy.org/subcategory.php/242.html

Aqua :smile:
 
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