What temperature actually means?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of temperature, particularly in relation to kinetic energy in gases and solids, and how different types of motion (random vs. uniform) affect the measurement and understanding of temperature. Participants explore theoretical implications, practical examples, and the limitations of the ideal gas model.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that in the ideal gas model, temperature is linked to the average kinetic energy (KE) of gas molecules, questioning whether directed motion affects temperature.
  • Others argue that if gas particles are moving uniformly in one direction, it does not contribute to an increase in temperature, as temperature is defined when the gas is stationary relative to the thermometer.
  • A participant suggests that for solids vibrating at high frequencies, distinguishing between random and periodic motion is complex and raises questions about how to estimate temperature in such cases.
  • Some participants assert that collective motion does not equate to heat, emphasizing that heat arises from disordered motion and collisions among particles.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of uniform motion on entropy and heat, with some asserting that uniform motion does not contribute to temperature changes.
  • A later reply introduces the idea that temperature is an emergent property, suggesting a more complex relationship between motion and temperature than previously stated.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between motion and temperature, particularly regarding uniform and random motion. There is no consensus on how to define or measure temperature in the context of directed motion versus random motion.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of temperature and heat, as well as the unresolved nature of how periodic and irregular motions contribute to temperature measurements.

kelvin490
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In ideal gas model, temperature is the measure of average kinetic energy of the gas molecules. If by some means the gas particles are accelerated to a very high speed in one direction, KE certainly increased, can we say the gas becomes hotter? Do we need to distinguish the random vibration KE and KE in one direction?

Furthermore, if we accelerate a block of metal with ultrasonic vibrator so that the metal is vibrating in very high speed with cyclic motion, can we say the metal is hot when it is moving but suddenly become much cooler when the vibration stop?
 
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- if you travel along with the gas it does not get hotter, but if you didn't, you could say it was hotter ... but you would more likely say it was windy.

So - yes: the T=KE(ave) is for when the container for the gas is stationary wrt the thermometer.
Same goes for the vibrating metal ... the metal is not vibrating randomly. (In practice the metal would warm up though.)
 
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If a lot of gas particles travel in one direction with high speed without random motion, can we still say it has high temperature?

For other cases including solid, do we always need to take away the linear velocity every time we calculate the temperature?
 
I have already answered these questions.
T=KE(ave) is for when the container for the gas is stationary wrt the thermometer.
Same goes for the vibrating metal ... the metal is not vibrating randomly. (In practice the metal would warm up though.)

i.e. the answer to both questions is "no". It would be pretty unusual to include the bulk velocity with the temperature.
 
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If the gas molecules are in a uniform parallel flow, with nothing to disturb them, there is no heat. If there is something to disarrange the parallelness, sending the gas molecules off on collision courses, then there would be heat.
If the solid is getting warmer then there is heat. Even though the molecular collisions are not totally random, within that non-random motion there will be disorganized non-elastic collisions, with energy being absorbed and heat is produced.
 
When looking at the definition of heat through the entropy of the system, it also becomes obvious that a uniform motion won't change the entropy, and thus the heat.
 
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Consider ultrasonic welding. It's not the vibration directly that causes the melting and bonding. It is the friction caused by the vibration.
 
I have thought about the question again. It is no doubt that uniform motion doesn't contribute to the temperature of an object (a cup of coffee won't boil in an airplane). But for periodic motions like vibrations with high frequency and small amplitude, how does the object knows which part of its motion is random and which part is not? The motion of atoms in solid is also some sort of vibration. How to estimate temperature of a solid in such kind of motion? One may say that periodic motion is also some sort of uniform motion and won't change the entropy of the object, what if we impose irregular, random vibration to the object?

Thank you.
 
kelvin490 said:
In ideal gas model, temperature is the measure of average kinetic energy of the gas molecules. If by some means the gas particles are accelerated to a very high speed in one direction, KE certainly increased, can we say the gas becomes hotter? Do we need to distinguish the random vibration KE and KE in one direction?

This is one reason why the ideal gas model is woefully inadequate to describe continuous matter. AFAIK, temperature only has a physical interpretation in connection with equilibrium. There are a few non-equilibrium thermodynamic approaches to discuss 'temperature', my preferred one is to simply use it as a primitive concept (like 'mass' in mechanics) and go from there.
 
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  • #10
kelvin490 said:
Do we need to distinguish the random vibration KE and KE in one direction?
Yes. If you treat the ideal gas as a fluid, you need to distinguish between the velocity of a fluid element and the temperature of a fluid element. Basically, a fluid is an approximation of the gas where you don't care about the position and velocity of each gas molecule, but just the distribution function of the velocity of particles averaged over some small area. The velocity of the fluid is the mean velocity of particles. The temperature is related to the standard deviation of the velocity distribution. In general, collective group motion is not heat; it is the random motion or spread in the distribution function which is heat. Of course, collective group motion can be converted into heat, but the reverse conversion is not possible without adding extra work.
 
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  • #11
kelvin490 said:
I have thought about the question again. It is no doubt that uniform motion doesn't contribute to the temperature of an object (a cup of coffee won't boil in an airplane). But for periodic motions like vibrations with high frequency and small amplitude, how does the object knows which part of its motion is random and which part is not? The motion of atoms in solid is also some sort of vibration. How to estimate temperature of a solid in such kind of motion? One may say that periodic motion is also some sort of uniform motion and won't change the entropy of the object, what if we impose irregular, random vibration to the object?
Khashishi already answered this pretty well, but just to add to that:

Essentially, "heat" is the name we give to kinetic energy when it has become too disordered to directly perform any mechanical work. If you have gas that's swirling inside a cylinder, you can insert a turbine and use that to extract the kinetic energy. If you have a pendulum that's swinging back and forth with a regular period, you can hook it up to any number of mechanical devices and use that setup to extract the kinetic energy. But if all you have is random motion, then the best you can do is "dump" the random kinetic energy into a cooler region, and the amount of work you can extract from that transition is limited by the Carnot cycle.

When I was a kid, I desperately wanted to build a device which would extract work from a heat bath by using some kind of magnetic field...only to realize I was running afoul of the laws of entropy.
 
  • #12
how does the object knows which part of its motion is random and which part is not? The motion of atoms in solid is also some sort of vibration.
It doesn't need to. Temperature is an emergent property.
 

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