Why don't the glaciers just melt?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the persistence of glaciers in Norway, particularly those at lower altitudes around 300 meters above sea level, despite experiencing temperatures of around 20°C for several months. Participants explore various factors that contribute to the glaciers not melting as expected, including climatic, physical, and environmental influences.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that glaciers are continuously replenished through precipitation, which helps maintain their mass.
  • Others express skepticism about the melting rates at lower altitudes, questioning how much ice can be retained when temperatures are relatively high.
  • One participant notes that the reflective properties of ice may limit melting by reducing heat absorption from sunlight.
  • Another point raised is that melting ice requires significant heat, as water has a higher specific heat than air, necessitating substantial warm air to melt ice effectively.
  • It is proposed that glaciers can be seen as "living" entities that gain and lose ice over time, with new ice forming at higher elevations while lower sections may melt.
  • A participant mentions the slow movement of glacial ice, which can lead to melting at higher elevations while maintaining mass at lower elevations.
  • The downdraft effect created by large glaciers is discussed, suggesting that they can influence local weather patterns, potentially leading to increased snowfall that contributes to their growth.
  • Concerns are raised about the impact of dirt and soot on glaciers, which can reduce their reflectivity and increase melting rates.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a variety of viewpoints regarding the factors influencing glacier melting, with no clear consensus on the primary reasons for their persistence at lower altitudes. Multiple competing explanations are presented, indicating an unresolved discussion.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about temperature variations, local weather patterns, and the specific heat of materials are mentioned but not fully explored. The discussion also touches on the complexities of glacier dynamics without resolving the mathematical or physical details involved.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying glaciology, climate science, or environmental science, as well as individuals curious about the dynamics of glaciers in relation to climate conditions.

TSN79
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So I was looking at a map of my country (Norway), and we have a couple of glaciers. Now, I understand that when they're at high altitude they don't melt, but I saw some of them reaching down as low as 300 meters above sea level. How come they don't just melt...? It's 20 C for like 5-6 months!
 
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They are continuously replenished through rain and snow.
 
I get that, but down to 300 meters...? I figured it would melt much more than what comes down...
 
I think part of it is that the ice reflects a lot of light.

Is it 20 C at the glaciers? What is the temperature at night? What is the water temperatures in the vicinity of the glaciers?

There's a lot glacial mass compared to air mass.
 
TSN79 said:
So I was looking at a map of my country (Norway), and we have a couple of glaciers. Now, I understand that when they're at high altitude they don't melt, but I saw some of them reaching down as low as 300 meters above sea level. How come they don't just melt...? It's 20 C for like 5-6 months!


Partly for the same reason snow remains in shaded areas of my backyard that the sun doesn't reach long after the other snow has melted and air temperatures have risen above freezing. It takes a lot of heat to melt snow and ice because water has a higher specific heat than air and most other substances. It takes over 4 times more heat to raise the temperature of a gram of water than is needed to raise the temperature of a gram of air. The exact amount varies with air pressure and the water content of the air. Thus a lot of warm air is required to melt ice.

Another factor is that glaciers could be described as "living". They may continually gain and lose ice. Ice forms on the top as moisture accumulates from snow or freezing rain. the added weight causes the glacier to move downhill where the terrain allows such movement. Even if the ice at the low end melts, more ice can form on the top giving the appearance that ice at the low end is not melting.

If melting ice evaporates it rises and then refreezes if it passes over the glacier.
 
Glacial Ice often forms hundreds of years ago at higher elevation and slides down the channels toward the ocean in SLOW motion. It will melt in the ocean or on its way downhill.

Your glaciers probably are melting towards higher elevations. 300m could be 400m or higher above sea level in 2 to 20 years.

There is also the downdraft effect. A glacier is a patch of ice that gets so big that it creates its own weather pattern. The melt energy taken from the air around a glacier creates cool air outflow, causing low pressure that can pull downdrafts out of the cold upper layers of the atmosphere. It can cause condensation and cloud formation. It can cause snow that will increase its growth.

As was mentioned by others the Ice is highly reflective so even if it doesn't cover itself in clouds it will still be almost unaffected by sunlight. Once it gets dirty from dust and soot or from grinding its way down a mountain valley, that all changes and solar heat trapped in darker glacial mix will carve through the ice.
 

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