Why is internal energy not a function of pressure?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between internal energy and its dependence on various thermodynamic variables, specifically questioning why internal energy is not considered a function of pressure. Participants explore the implications of different variable choices in thermodynamic equations and the nature of internal energy as an extensive property.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that internal energy is typically expressed as a function of temperature and volume, U = U(T,V), and question the intuition behind this choice.
  • Others suggest that the natural variables for internal energy are entropy (S) and volume (V), indicating a potential simplification in the book's approach.
  • A participant points out that the equation of state, such as the ideal gas law, connects temperature, volume, and pressure, implying that knowing two variables determines the third.
  • There is a discussion regarding whether internal energy should also depend on mass, with some asserting that it is an extensive property proportional to mass.
  • Participants discuss the distinction between extensive properties (like internal energy) and intensive properties (like specific internal energy), noting the potential for ambiguity in notation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the dependence of internal energy on pressure, with some arguing it is not a direct function while others suggest it can be expressed in terms of pressure under certain conditions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these varying perspectives.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions made about the relationships between thermodynamic variables and the definitions of extensive versus intensive properties. The context of the discussion does not clarify all mathematical relationships or the specific conditions under which certain statements hold true.

eprparadox
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I'm reading a book on thermal physics and the author says this:

"In general, the internal energy will be a function of temperature and volume, so that we can write U =U(T,V)"

How do we know this intuitively and how do we know that internal energy is not a function of pressure as well?
 
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eprparadox said:
I'm reading a book on thermal physics and the author says this:

"In general, the internal energy will be a function of temperature and volume, so that we can write U =U(T,V)"

How do we know this intuitively and how do we know that internal energy is not a function of pressure as well?
The equation of state of a substance (e.g., the ideal gas law) specifies the relationship between its temperature T, volume V, and pressure P. Once any two of these are specified, the third one is determined, and its thermodynamic state is established. In your book, the author chose to use T and V. But, the author could equally well have chosen T and P (provided he was referring to the internal energy per unit mass).
 
Isn't the internal energy also a function of the amount of mass (could be expressed as density since volume is a parameter).
 
Internal energy is an extensive property, and thereby depends on the amount of mass (i.e., is proportional to the amount of mass). Density, of course, is the inverse of specific volume. So, internal energy per unit mass u is a function of T and P, P and v, or T and v, where v is the specific volume.
 
So is big U an energy value or an energy per unit mass (or like pressure, an energy per unit volume) value ? From the wiki article, I got the impression it was an energy value.
 
rcgldr said:
So is big U an energy value or an energy per unit mass (or like pressure, an energy per unit volume) value ? From the wiki article, I got the impression it was an energy value.
Usually, upper case letters are used for the extensive properties such as internal energy and volume (U and V), and lower case letters are used for the intensive versions (i.e., extensive property per unit mass or per mole) specific internal energy and specific volume (u and v). However, this is not always done, and there is often ambiguity. Often, the context reveals which is being used.
 

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