Why is the Rove/Plame issue important?

[StarkRavingMad]

I'm not going to waste my time sifting through the articles on this case. It's not worth the effort when I know you'll just dismiss it all anyway. I always get a chuckle when leftists have no problem throwing out any conspiracy theory they want... but dare allude to a conspiracy -against- the left, and it just gets laughed at.

 

[BobG]

She doesn't have to be deep undercover. All that is required is that her employment status with the CIA be classified and that the person who leaked her identity be aware of this. A part of Libby's defense will probably be along the lines that he was unaware that her status was classified.

Except Libby isn't being charged for releasing the name of Plame. He's being charged with lying during his testimony.

It is a little confusing about where things stand at this point. Releasing CIA intel supporting the invasion wasn't illegal since it was authorized by Bush, effectively declassifying the info. The issue of whether the release of Plame's name was authorized by Bush still hasn't really been addressed, but it's almost the only possible reason that the only charges brought so far were perjury, making false statements, and obstruction of justice.

If Bush authorized or directed the release of Plame's name, then there was no crime to begin with - the action would be unethical, petty, and vengeful. There would be some tough political consequences, but no legal consequences.

In a way, it's even more bizarre than Watergate, where a small offense that would have disappeared in a couple of months turned into a cover-up that resulted in the President having to resign. With the Plame affair, it would be truly bizarre to be undone by covering up the fact that there was no crime to begin with.

 

[edward]

30 Sep 2003 Speaking to the press in Chicago:
BUSH: f there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of.
[...]
REPORTER: Yesterday we were told that Karl Rove had no role in it --
BUSH: Yes.
REPORTER: -- have you talked to Karl and do you have confidence in him?
BUSH: Listen, I know of nobody -- I don't know of anybody in my administration who leaked classified information. If somebody did leak classified information, I'd like to know it, and we'll take the appropriate action. And this investigation is a good thing.

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/presidents/george-w-bush/

The above has Bush covered so long as no one involved, including Bush and Cheney, ever releases their lists of declassified documents.

If the information had truly been declassified at the time of this interview, there would have been no need for an investigation. Let's face the truth, the information was recently declassified retroactively.

That being said, the declassified information should eventually show up at the George Washington University archives. I seriously doubt that will ever happen.

 

[BobG]

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/presidents/george-w-bush/

The above has Bush covered so long as no one involved, including Bush and Cheney, ever releases their lists of declassified documents.

If the information had truly been declassified at the time of this interview, there would have been no need for an investigation. Let's face the truth, the information was recently declassified retroactively.

That being said, the declassified information should eventually show up at the George Washington University archives. I seriously doubt that will ever happen.

It works regardless. Libby's trial will be after the fall elections, minimizing the absolute worst case scenarios, and the spin will concentrate on the fact that there was no crime to investigate; that Fitzgerald is flinging out petty charges to prevent a complete shutout. The reasoning behind why no crime was committed will get lost in the noise, but resolution of the leaks of the CIA's pre-war intel serves as a preamble for the Plame leak.

 

[Gokul43201]

Here's what appears to be the bottom line to me. Plame's classified status was made known to the media (Novak, and possibly others). The only way this is not a leak is if the information was first declassified. This can be done by the CIA, or it can be done by the President. The CIA did not do this; we don't know if the President "declassified" this info in the same way he declassified the parts of the NIE report. If it was not the President that permitted this, we have a leak. But since no one is being charged with a leak, unless an unexpected story comes out during Libby's trial, we won't know who leaked Plame's identity. That crime will likely go unpunished.

 

[StarkRavingMad]

Here's what appears to be the bottom line to me. Plame's classified status was made known to the media (Novak, and possibly others).

The bottom line for Rove is that Plame's name wasn't classified to begin with. Being an analyst for the CIA does not automatically mean you get that status. The media wants us to think she was Sidney Bristow or something.

But I have to confess I forget what Scooter Libby allegedly lied about in the first place? If it was about Iraq's attempt to buy uranium in Niger... the British still stand by their intel. It's never been disproven. Just because the CIA sent an outrageously unqualified media hound to "investigate" the story doesn't change the facts.

 

[edward]

If it was about Iraq's attempt to buy uranium in Niger... the British still stand by their intel. It's never been disproven.

All the British ever had was a claim of intel that Saddam was trying to buy yellow cake from an unknown African country. The well established facts are that this intel was wrong.

The Brits next came up with a document that indicated that the African country was Niger. This document came out of Italy and has been proven to be a forgery. The IAEA recognized that the document was a fake almost immediately.

Just because the CIA sent an outrageously unqualified media hound to "investigate" the story doesn't change the facts.

Wilson had previous experience in North Africa and the fact is, he was right about the yellow cake. There was none and their was no attempt to buy any. So unless you have 500 tons of yellow cake hidden under your bed, you are the only person who still believes in the yellow cake fairy tale.

The "Saddam is trying to buy yellow cake" fiasco was a not so well manufatured lie that was used to promote a war.
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030331fa_fact1

 

[edward]

For those who may have forgotten, below is a link to the Libby indictment.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1028051plame1.html

 

[Skyhunter]

The bottom line for Rove is that Plame's name wasn't classified to begin with. Being an analyst for the CIA does not automatically mean you get that status. The media wants us to think she was Sidney Bristow or something.

You really should get your information from more reliable sources than wing-nut blogs.

If she wasn't covert, why did the CIA ask the Justice department to investigate her being outed?

Is it because of this conspiracy?

CIA conspiracy
A series of events (including reports Wilson openly talked of his wife's CIA job) have led a couple of critics of Plame/Wilson to view the Plame affair as a covert CIA operation by a rogue agent (or perhaps Agency) designed to pull down a sitting president. [234] Plame's husband is thought to have played a key role by "misrepresenting" the intelligence he gathered on his trip to Niger. Wilson was not required to sign a confidentiality agreement. In addition, if any CIA employee publishes information on a classified trip, it would be illegal. Zell Miller called for a new "Plame Rule" that will prevent CIA employees from leaking classified information through their spouses. [235]

The suggestion of a plot by CIA officers is countered by a series of articles [236] in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica.[237][238][239] Investigative reporters Carlo Bonini and Giuseppe d'Avanzo report that Nicolo Pollari, chief of Italy's military intelligence service, known as Sismi, brought the Niger yellowcake story directly to the White House after his insistent overtures had been rejected by the Central Intelligence Agency in 2001 and 2002. Sismi had reported to the CIA on October 15, 2001, that Iraq had sought yellowcake in Niger, a report it also plied on British intelligence, creating an echo that the Niger forgeries themselves purported to amplify before they were exposed as a hoax.

Pollari met secretly in Washington on September 9, 2002, with then–Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley. Their secret meeting came at a critical moment in the White House campaign to convince Congress and the American public that war in Iraq was necessary to prevent Saddam Hussein from developing nuclear weapons. [240][241][242][243]

Or does this one make more sense?

Saudi conspiracy
While many observers are convinced that the administration intentionally leaked Ms. Plame's identity in retaliation against Wilson for his public challenge to the African yellowcake claim, Michael Ruppert offers a different theory.[244] Ruppert shares the belief that the leak was intentional, but argues that the motive was to forestall a possible investigation by Plame and the CIA into the reserve capacity of Saudi oil fields. In this view, the leak was part of a strategy to conceal a coming crisis in energy supply from the American people, known as the peak oil theory.

Valerie Plame was not an analyst she had non official cover otherwise known as a NOC. Unlike Agents with official cover, NOC's have no governmental protections. She worked for a CIA front company Brewster Jennings & Associates.

So the person that the wing-nuts are smearing worked for the CIA for 20 years in the one of the most dangerous positions. It sickens me to see the depths that some people will go to support their ideology.

There is a term for ruthless people it is Machevelian, now we have another for those who smear national heros, we call them Rovian.

[edit] source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair#CIA_conspiracy [/edit]

 

[Skyhunter]

How does this little tidbit fit into the above theories.

From an interview with Harry Reid, Senate Minority Leader.

But I think we've come to learn that the intelligence community in America is run by one person -- one person -- and that's the vice president. [Sen. Pat] Roberts, who is the supposed chair of that committee -- I shouldn't say "supposed chair"; he is the chair -- he can't do anything without [Dick Cheney].

Let me give you an example. Jay Rockefeller had surgery, and it turned out a lot worse than we expected. It was spinal surgery, so he could not do his job. He had to stay home. We had worked and struggled to have a three-member Democratic oversight committee to oversee NSA stuff. They could review everything. That was the deal that was made -- Rockefeller, Levin and [Dianne] Feinstein. Rockefeller can't be there, so I talk to [Senate Majority Leader Bill] Frist, and I say, "What we need to do is have somebody replace, at least on a temporary basis, and the fourth person in seniority is [Oregon Sen.] Ron Wyden."

So Frist, he doesn't do anything. After a couple of days, he says, "Talk to Pat Roberts, talk to Pat Roberts." And a day or two later, Pat Roberts says, "The vice president doesn't want me to do that."

Everything is run through the vice president -- everything.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/06/12/reid/index1.html
You can watch an ad for access to Salon.com.

I seem to remember a secret energy task force, hunting trips with one of the SC justices hearing the case to lift it's veil of secrecy, maps of oil reserves in the ME, requests for intelligence breifings by then VP elect Cheney explicitly on Iraq only. All the makings of a great conspiracy theory don't you think.

 

[SOS2008]

I and others know full well that Rove (et al) knowingly smeared Wilson in order to continue "catapulting the propaganda" about Iraq/Saddam. Unfortunately Patrick Fitzgerald could not PROVE that Rove knew Valerie Plame's status as a covert agent. The slimy worm is very fortunate that he lives in a country where due process continues to be practiced--at least in regard to those in power (BushCo).

And as predicted, Rove immediately returned his focus to supporting Bush in "catapulting the propaganda" about Iraq/Saddam and how supposedly the invasion/occupation is necessary to win the "greater war on terror." If anyone continues to drink this Bus**t Kool-Aid I will be livid. This asinine administration has yet to PROVE how the invasion has had anything to do with the "war on terror" except fueling it all the more.

Also as predicted, Rove has begun his usual dirty politics accusing war veterans such as Kerry and Murtha of being "cut and run" advocates. OMG! I can only hope that the American people will continue to look at the futility of the occupation, and ongoing loss of lives and growing deficits this incredibly self-serving, bungled, and most of all deceitful misadventure has caused.

Bush, Cheney, Rove -- truly the axis of evil. At this point I almost don't care who becomes the next president, because anyone will be better. I just want these insidious #!$*&%! GONE! :yuck: :grumpy:

 

[StarkRavingMad]

You really should get your information from more reliable sources than wing-nut blogs.

... source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_a...CIA_conspiracy

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Well if she has a wiki then that settles it. Who am I to argue with a wiki?

I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.

 

[SOS2008]

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Well if she has a wiki then that settles it. Who am I to argue with a wiki?

I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.

"The CIA Leak: Plame Was Still Covert" - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11179719/site/newsweek/

On Sept. 26, 2003, the FBI and Justice Department began an investigation... U.S. Attorney Patrick J. Fitzgerald in Chicago was named as a special counsel in December 2003 to investigate whether the identification of Plame, who was an undercover CIA officer, was a violation of federal law.

- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801847.html

At issue in the case has been how covert CIA operative Valerie Plame's name was disclosed to the media.

- http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/06/13/rove.cia/

From that same article:

Asked if the CIA leak investigation is still continuing, Fitzgerald's spokesman, Randall Samborn, told The Associated Press there would be no comment.

Since Cheney is the one who was really behind all this, hopefully the investigation will continue and the focus will be on him now. And hopefully Americans will stop getting their misinformation from Faux News.

 

[edward]

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Well if she has a wiki then that settles it. Who am I to argue with a wiki?

I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.

So perhaps you would like to argue with this.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casec...s/15/subchapters/iv/sections/section_421.html

Or this
http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/iraq/documents.html

 

[Gokul43201]

The bottom line for Rove is that Plame's name wasn't classified to begin with. Being an analyst for the CIA does not automatically mean you get that status. The media wants us to think she was Sidney Bristow or something.

But I have to confess I forget what Scooter Libby allegedly lied about in the first place?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/21/AR2006052101024.html

The classified status of the identity of former CIA officer Valerie Plame will be a key element in any trial of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Cheney's former chief of staff, according to special counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald.

Fitzgerald has said that at trial he plans to show that Libby knew Plame's employment at the CIA was classified and that he lied to the grand jury when he said he had learned from NBC News's Tim Russert that Plame, the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, worked for the agency.

 

[Skyhunter]

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Well if she has a wiki then that settles it. Who am I to argue with a wiki?

I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.

I used Wikapedia, since it has the whole affair, with both sides presented, and most, I admit not all, but most of the statements sourced. For someone unfamiliar it is a good starting point.

I did not post it to try and convince you of anything. I agree with SOS2008's signature;

“Never try to teach a pig to sing; it frustrates you and annoys the pig.” – Mark Twain

I posted a more rational, more comprehensible compilation of the whole story, including your conspiracy theory. I wanted to make sure that anyone else reading this thread knows that your statement about her being an analyst was false and to express my opinion of the people trying to smear a woman that took great personal risks, in the service of her country.

Valerie Plame Wilson risked her life and freedom in service of her country. Either provide some evidence to support your claim or retract it.

 

[Manchot]

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Well if she has a wiki then that settles it. Who am I to argue with a wiki?

I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.

It may be a wiki, but it's a well-cited wiki. I see almost 250 citations on it.

 

[Gokul43201]

Update:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...says_he_revealed_3_sources_in_leak_testimony/

WASHINGTON -- Syndicated columnist Robert Novak acknowledged yesterday for the first time that he identified three confidential administration sources during testimony in the CIA leak investigation. He said he did so because they had granted him legal waivers to testify and because special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald already knew of their role.

In a column to be published today, Novak said he told Fitzgerald in early 2004 that White House senior adviser Karl Rove and then-CIA spokesman Bill Harlow had confirmed for him, at his request, information about CIA operative Valerie Plame. Novak said he also told Fitzgerald about another senior administration official who originally provided him with the information about Plame, and whose identity he says he cannot reveal even now.

 

[Skyhunter]

Plame sues White House figures over CIA leak

So Valerie Plame is going to go the Paula Jones route.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13845613/

“This lawsuit concerns the intentional and malicious exposure by senior officials of the federal government of ... (Plame), whose job it was to gather intelligence to make the nation safer and who risked her life for her country,” the Wilsons’ lawyers said in the lawsuit.

This is great, now America will get the details, and Rove, Cheney etc. will be exposed to perjury traps. This is really rich. :rofl: Like poetic justice. And just in time for the midterms

 

[edward]

I see a big CLASSIFIED rubber stamp comming.

The Cheney Rove Libby, gang will claim that in order to defend themselves classified information will have to be revealed to the jury.

 

[Skyhunter]

I see a big CLASSIFIED rubber stamp comming.

The Cheney Rove Libby, gang will claim that in order to defend themselves classified information will have to be revealed to the jury.

Either that or Bush will do like he is doing with the lawsuits against AT&T and just have the courts dismiss it for national security concerns.

 

[SOS2008]

We know this administration has become a bunch of national security fascists, but still I like to see citizens like Plame and Terri Schiavo's husband take a stand and try to fight back. I'm also glad to see a court review of the warrant-less wiretaps.

Of course a few more indictments, and the dream of all dreams--impeachment would be wonderful. But if these topics stay in the news and we can get back some balance of power in the midterms, it will be progress.

 

[pcorbett]

What is the single most distressing thing about the leak of Plame's CIA role?

That Ms. Plame tapped her husband to develop take in response to the Vice President's questions.

Alternatively, how does this leak fit into the larger picture?

It's one more piece of evidence that the CIA is a hollow force and probably has been for thirty years or more.