Why methane burn at high temperature?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the combustion of methane, specifically addressing why it requires high temperatures (around 1200K) to ignite without an external spark. Participants explore the thermodynamic and kinetic aspects of methane combustion, including activation energy and the conditions necessary for the reaction to occur.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that methane reacting with oxygen is thermodynamically favorable at all temperatures, as indicated by the free energy equation dG = dH - TdS, where dG is always negative.
  • It is mentioned that the reaction produces water and carbon dioxide, which have more degrees of freedom, contributing to a positive change in entropy (dS).
  • Participants discuss the necessity of overcoming activation energy for the reaction to occur, suggesting that this can be achieved either through a localized energy input (like a spark) or by raising the overall temperature.
  • One participant questions the reasons behind the high activation energy required for methane combustion, expressing confusion about the complexity of the reaction despite methane being a simple molecule.
  • Another participant acknowledges that there is a reason for the high activation energy but admits to a lack of clarity on the topic due to previous learning difficulties.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the thermodynamic favorability of methane combustion but express uncertainty regarding the specific reasons for the high activation energy and the complexity of the reaction mechanism.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions regarding the definitions of thermodynamic terms and the specifics of activation energy are not fully explored, leaving room for further clarification.

chewchun
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Methane burns at 1200k without any spark or ignition.
But why is this so?Why so high temperature?
Isn't it that when there is the right proportion of methane and oxygen, combustion will occur with a small energy needed?
Or is it because of high activation energy?
 
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methane reacting with oxygen is thermodynamically favorable at essentially all temperatures.

That's because according to the constant temperature (which is a very nice approximation) free energy equation, dG = dH - TdS, dG will ALWAYS be negative: the binding energy of methane + oxygen is higher (less negative) than the binding energy of the products water and carbon dioxide, so dH is negative, and dS is always positive because the equation

CH4 + 2 O2 -> CO2 + 2 H2O has molecules with more degrees of freedom on the right hand side than on the left hand side.

To make it quantitative, you look up numbers on a thermodynamic data chart.

However, thermodynamically favorable =/= actually happens because to actually happen, the activation energy must be overcome. There's 2 ways to do it. One is to apply a small amount of energy in a tiny place so that the energy density is very high, such as with a spark plug, and a reaction occurs at that point, and the energy released by the reaction causes a chain reaction. Or you can just raise the temperature of everything.
 
chill_factor said:
methane reacting with oxygen is thermodynamically favorable at essentially all temperatures.

That's because according to the constant temperature (which is a very nice approximation) free energy equation, dG = dH - TdS, dG will ALWAYS be negative: the binding energy of methane + oxygen is higher (less negative) than the binding energy of the products water and carbon dioxide, so dH is negative, and dS is always positive because the equation

CH4 + 2 O2 -> CO2 + 2 H2O has molecules with more degrees of freedom on the right hand side than on the left hand side.

To make it quantitative, you look up numbers on a thermodynamic data chart.

However, thermodynamically favorable =/= actually happens because to actually happen, the activation energy must be overcome. There's 2 ways to do it. One is to apply a small amount of energy in a tiny place so that the energy density is very high, such as with a spark plug, and a reaction occurs at that point, and the energy released by the reaction causes a chain reaction. Or you can just raise the temperature of everything.

Is there any reason for the high activation energy of methane combustion?
To me,such a simple molecule seems to be pretty complex upon what you have said...
 
yes there is a reason but it is complicated. i think i remember being taught this in my physical chemistry class but i did not learn it well and forgot.
 

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