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Boy, 8, shoots himself to death at Mass. gun show
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081028/ap_on_re_us/boy_shoots_himself
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081028/ap_on_re_us/boy_shoots_himself
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Boy, 8, shoots himself to death at Mass. gun show
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Discussion Overview
The discussion centers around the tragic incident of an 8-year-old boy who accidentally shot himself at a gun show. Participants explore various aspects of gun safety, the appropriateness of allowing children to handle firearms, and the responsibilities of adults in such situations. The conversation includes personal anecdotes, societal implications, and differing views on gun culture and safety practices.
Discussion Character
- Debate/contested
- Conceptual clarification
- Meta-discussion
Main Points Raised
- Some participants express outrage at the circumstances, suggesting that the situation was preventable and criticizing the father's actions during the incident.
- Concerns are raised about the appropriateness of allowing an 8-year-old to fire an automatic weapon, with some arguing that such exposure is dangerous regardless of adult supervision.
- Others share personal experiences of handling firearms at a young age, suggesting that with proper training and respect, children can safely engage with guns.
- There is a discussion about the cultural implications of gun ownership and whether allowing children to handle guns fosters a dangerous dependency on weapons.
- Some participants argue that teaching children about firearms can promote safety and responsibility, while others contend that it may lead to a normalization of violence.
- Participants debate the necessity of firearms safety education and the potential consequences of children being exposed to guns without proper guidance.
Areas of Agreement / Disagreement
Participants do not reach a consensus on the appropriateness of children handling firearms or the implications of gun culture. There are multiple competing views regarding safety, responsibility, and societal impact.
Contextual Notes
Limitations in the discussion include varying definitions of responsible gun ownership, differing personal experiences with firearms, and unresolved questions about the effectiveness of current safety measures at gun shows.
- #2
rootX
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When I saw the thread title, I thought he must be an American.
And yes, he was...
And yes, he was...
- #3
drankin
Just read about this. They better put dad on suicide watch.
- #4
Evo
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The proud father pulling out his camera for a snapshot of his 8 year old firing an uzi.
SICK.
SICK.
- #5
drankin
It's horrible particularly because it was so preventable.
- #6
russ_watters
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How could they not have predicted this? Handguns kick. Automatic handguns kick a lot. The best they could have expected was for him to smack himself in the head with the gun.
- #7
Proton Soup
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stupid happens every day
http://www.motherproof.com/advice-safety/story/pay-attention-and-end-driveway-deaths/
http://www.motherproof.com/advice-safety/story/pay-attention-and-end-driveway-deaths/
- #8
Astronuc
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That is the first thought I had. An 8 year old should not be in a position to fire an automatic weapon like that (first time!) without an adult with hands nearby to catch it if it recoils - just like it did.
And the dad was reaching for a camera instead of paying attention to a potentially dangerous situation - or fatal in this case.
- #9
rootX
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Astronuc said:
Why should a 8 year old get hands on any weapon regardless of an adult presence?
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rootX said:
It's a little young perhaps. But I had a .22 pump action rifle at the age of 12 that held about 30 shorts or about 21 long rifles. I was hell on snakes and frogs and turtles and cans.
- #11
Integral
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rootX said:
Why not? I was about that age when I first shot a gun.
The very least they should have had the Uzi in single shot mode. (Never seen one, am assuming it HAS a single shot mode.) The kid had fired other weapons, but no mention of caliber.
Automatic weapons are notorious for 'walking" up as they fire, this boy simply did not have the strength required to hold it down.
- #12
rootX
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Integral said:
You must be really old then.
Letting children play with guns is an indicator of bad society. If they grow up with weapons, they will be more dependent on those weapons which is unhealthy. Whenever there's a problem, they would think of guns and assume that every problem can be solved with them! It's just my opionion and I realize that I am going with the extreme cases ...
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rootX said:
I can't speak for others, but I have no sense of ever thinking that a gun is a solution to anything but pests. I always held my barrel down, always had the safety on unless prepared to fire, never fired until I was certain of what it would hit, never looked down the barrel unless cleaning it, and then only from the ammo end out. It's only a tool. And even as a kid I never had anything but the utmost respect for it's potential for misuse.
The gun came to me from my father and it had a gouge in the stock that was a constant reminder to me whenever I handled it that came from the story behind it. The gouge came from when my father was carrying it, when he was younger, and he was out hunting with it slung under his arm. It was struck by a bullet from another hunter on the other side of a hill - out of line of sight. Every time I handled it I was reminded by the blemish of the power of chance, and the responsibility of the person pulling the trigger, and the thought that there but for that blemish I might never have been.
- #14
Proton Soup
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rootX said:
sorry, but this isn't quite right. sure, he shouldn't have adults teaching him to treat guns as toys the way these guys were doing. i believe in gun ownership, and own one, but don't understand some guys' fascination with blowing up pumpkins. not that i didn't go through such a destructive phase, but i was about 12.
but in general, a gun culture, at least in the traditional rural hunting sense, doesn't imply violence. the normal way of going about it is to give a kid a toy gun and teach him not to point even the toy at people. when he shows he can handle the toy responsibly, he can upgrade to a low-power BB gun. then a pellet gun, and eventually a .22, etc. raised properly, he doesn't think of it as a weapon, it's a powerful tool that demands responsibility.
4-H even used to do this in high schools: http://www.4-hshootingsports.org/
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rootX
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Proton Soup said:
For hunting:
I am strongly against killing innocents (all living beings), thus against weapons that are used more for aggression than for defense, but in here I mentioned earlier that
rootX said:
I should also mention (before someone else points this out) that there's a difference between hunting animals for fun and huting them for food and I am non-vegetarian.
P.S. I haven't touched any impacts on society in this post.
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- #16
Integral
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rootX said:
I am sorry this is udder nonsense. A gun is NOT a toy, just because you teach a child to handle a gun does not mean it is a toy. Quite the opposite, children taught to safely handle and respect fire arms are not going treat them like toys. It is kids who are NOT taught proper firearms safety that get into trouble when they happen to get their hands on a weapon.
A persons approach to problem solving in completely independent of their familiarity or in familiarity with firearms.
The simple fact is, any house with a firearms and children, the children should be taught firearms safety and respect.
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CaptainQuasar
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In general I'm not so hot on the idea of guns, for reasons like what happens when they're handled carelessly like in this story, but if someone is going to have access to and use them during the course of their life it makes sense to me to start exposing them to it at a young age.
⚛
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Jimmy Snyder
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Congratulations on having your prejudice confirmed.rootX said:
- #19
Borek
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jimmysnyder said:
I don't think it is a prejudice, I think it is statistics. My first idea was that it happened in US as well. I can be wrong, but I am not aware of any other country in which "gun culture" is as strong as in America.
I am not judging it - this is just a statement of fact.
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cristo
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rootX said:
Is that because the thread title includes the word "Mass." which is short for Massachusetts?
- #21
russ_watters
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That's just nonsense. I was a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout and my family farmers and I grew up occasionally shooting guns. I'm not sure how old I was, when I started. That is a pretty normal thing.rootX said:
There is significant virtue in learning proper respect for guns (giving an 8 year old an Uzi does not qualify imo).
This complete aversion to guns people have today is a relatively new thing and indicates more about the people who hold the opinion: they are overly sheltered and naive about guns.
Yes, you are. Basing an opinion soley on an extreme case is not a reasonable way to generate an opinion.
[edit] Fyi, I'm 32 and I probably started Cub Scouts around 3rd or 4th grade, so I would have been 8-10 the first time I shot a gun too. I don't imagine it is any different for Cub Scouts today.
I wonder what fraction of people who use guns for murder started off firing guns in Cub Scouts.
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- #22
Kurdt
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russ_watters said:
Does it really matter? I doubt it is the cub scouts teaching people to be responsible with firearms that turns potential murderers into nice citizens. I'd be willing to bet that the background circumstances that turn the majority of people into murderers would be such that they'd never go there in the first place. In which case that is not the success of the cub scouts, but rather the failure of society.
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Jimmy Snyder
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What statistics are you referring to? On 8 year old boys shooting themselves to death? Where did you get this statistic. Or did you apply some other statistic?Borek said:
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B. Elliott
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Integral said:
russ_watters said:
I think these two posts sum up my opinion on the subject. I was also taught proper handgun and rifle safety at a very young age. I can't remember exactly, but it must have been somewhere around seven or eight. Started off with a .22 rifle, then stepped up to a 30-30, then a .308, then various shotguns, and then later on to higher caliber pistols. I was also taught how to properly maintain them and most importantly, what not to do. I can't even think of the number of times that I've winced while watching someone handle a firearm;... swinging it around carelessly, not keeping the barrel pointed down or up, not checking to see if there is a round in the chamber, ect.
IMO, the majority of gun accidents can easily be tied to nothing but pure ignorance, carelessness and inattention when it comes to proper safety. If you're not taught to respect weapons, you're just asking for something bad to happen if you're ever presented with a situation where you will use one. This sad accident about the 8 year old boy, is a prime example.
- #25
Astronuc
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Certainly letting children 'play' with guns would be reckless and irresponsible. As far as I know, most adults with guns do not let children play with them. On the other hand, children do play with toy guns, water pistols, cap guns, and there is some theory that letting children play with toy weapons is not conducive to a more peaceful society.rootX said:
I think one learns violence (including use of guns) by watching others use violence (including guns), and that does unfortunately happen in some families and communities. However, given the prevalence of guns in American society, there is remarkably a low rate of gun violence.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm
The US has a moderate homicide rate (and apparently leads G7 and industrialized nation in that statistic).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_murder_rate
I'm not sure where one would find statistics on accidental shootings or deaths on an international basis, but there are stats of US.
http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/yourchild/guns.htm
I was about 10-11 when I fired a real gun. My family visited another family who lived on a ranch. We got to go out and shoot targets with a hand gun and rifle. During summer, I attended a church camp, and target practice (with pellet rifles) was one activity. I participated in Boy Scouts, and we occasionally went out in the countryside and did target practice with rifles and shotguns (skeet shooting). My brother had a BB-rifle. I got pretty good at hitting small targets from a distance.
However, as an adult, I do not own a gun, nor am I inclined to own one.
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- #26
Claws
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why why WHY are there ammunition at a gun show?? I know that to some, Europe is considered a bit too conservative when it comes to gunlaws, but you would NEVER find ammunition at a gunshow here. Visitors are checked with metal-detectors at entry and exit.
That being said, this could also have happened at a gun-range since his parents are so irresponsible as to let an 8 year old use a fully automatic weapon. It completely blows my mind (and the 8yo kid, sorry).
/C
That being said, this could also have happened at a gun-range since his parents are so irresponsible as to let an 8 year old use a fully automatic weapon. It completely blows my mind (and the 8yo kid, sorry).
/C
- #27
Borek
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jimmysnyder said:
Number of guns being held in private hands per capita. To quote BBC site:
That's about 0.66 gun per American. In Poland there are about 0.5 mln firearms, which gives about 0.013 gun per Pole - 50 times less. This statistics tells me that there must be many more gun related accidents in US than in Poland. Add to that fact that America has almost 8 times larger population. Now you may replace Poland with almost every other country in the world, and numbers will tell you more or less the same.
Once again - I am not telling it is bad or good. I am just applying common reason to numbers - most gun related accidents must happen in America (excluding places where there is war, civil war, or simply no army/police to enforce some kind of law and order).
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Jimmy Snyder
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That's not stats, that applying common reason.Borek said:
- #29
Astronuc
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Apparently the point of attending the show, according to advertisements, was the purpose to fire guns, particularly automatic weapons. The authorities are investigating to see if any laws were violated. The father was negligent and he paid the highest price than any parent could pay - the death of his son. There is no worse punishment for a parent.Claws said:
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Proton Soup said:
To this day, when I see kids point non shooting toy guns, I still insist they point the barrel away from people or pets. With air pistols most especially, I will take it away regardless of whether they say there is nothing in it. That is a lesson that must be learned. It's sadly an all too often repeated excuse, and to some too foolish to know their last words with real guns. You can prevent ever having to say you didn't know by never doing it in the first place. No exceptions.
In large part I think some video games have dumbed down thoughts of gun responsibility, numbed kids with a culture of indifference as to the consequences as bodies simply disappear from the games, and generally give license to acting stupid with guns. Entertaining to some perhaps ... but entertainment with unfortunate dividends.