Boy, 8, shoots himself to death at Mass. gun show

[LowlyPion]

Boy, 8, shoots himself to death at Mass. gun show

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081028/ap_on_re_us/boy_shoots_himself

 

[rootX]

When I saw the thread title, I thought he must be an American.

And yes, he was...

 

[drankin]

Just read about this. They better put dad on suicide watch.

 

[Evo]

The proud father pulling out his camera for a snapshot of his 8 year old firing an uzi.

SICK.

 

[drankin]

It's horrible particularly because it was so preventable.

 

[russ_watters]

How could they not have predicted this? Handguns kick. Automatic handguns kick a lot. The best they could have expected was for him to smack himself in the head with the gun.

 

[Proton Soup]

stupid happens every day
http://www.motherproof.com/advice-safety/story/pay-attention-and-end-driveway-deaths/

 

[Astronuc]

Now gun safety experts — and some gun enthusiasts at the club where the shooting happened — are wondering why such a young child was allowed to fire a weapon used in war.

That is the first thought I had. An 8 year old should not be in a position to fire an automatic weapon like that (first time!) without an adult with hands nearby to catch it if it recoils - just like it did.

And the dad was reaching for a camera instead of paying attention to a potentially dangerous situation - or fatal in this case.

Christopher, a third-grader, was attending the show with his father and sixth-grade brother, Colin. Christopher had fired handguns and rifles before, but Sunday was his first time firing an automatic weapon, said his father, Charles Bizilj.

Bizilj told the Boston Globe he was about 10 feet behind his son and reaching for his camera when the weapon fired. He said his family avoided the larger weapons, but he let his son try the Uzi because it's a small weapon with little recoil.

 

[rootX]

That is the first thought I had. An 8 year old should not be in a position to fire an automatic weapon like that (first time!) without an adult with hands nearby to catch it if it recoils - just like it did.

Why should a 8 year old get hands on any weapon regardless of an adult presence?

 

[LowlyPion]

Why should a 8 year old get hands on any weapon regardless of an adult presence?

It's a little young perhaps. But I had a .22 pump action rifle at the age of 12 that held about 30 shorts or about 21 long rifles. I was hell on snakes and frogs and turtles and cans.

 

[Integral]

Why should a 8 year old get hands on any weapon regardless of an adult presence?

Why not? I was about that age when I first shot a gun.

The very least they should have had the Uzi in single shot mode. (Never seen one, am assuming it HAS a single shot mode.) The kid had fired other weapons, but no mention of caliber.

Automatic weapons are notorious for 'walking" up as they fire, this boy simply did not have the strength required to hold it down.

 

[rootX]

Why not? I was about that age when I first shot a gun.

You must be really old then.

Letting children play with guns is an indicator of bad society. If they grow up with weapons, they will be more dependent on those weapons which is unhealthy. Whenever there's a problem, they would think of guns and assume that every problem can be solved with them! It's just my opionion and I realize that I am going with the extreme cases ...

 

[LowlyPion]

You must be really old then.

Letting children play with guns is an indicator of bad society. If they grow up with weapons, they will be more dependent on those weapons which is unhealthy. Whenever there's a problem, they would think of guns and assume that every problem can be solved with them! It's just my opionion and I realize that I am going with the extreme cases ...

I can't speak for others, but I have no sense of ever thinking that a gun is a solution to anything but pests. I always held my barrel down, always had the safety on unless prepared to fire, never fired until I was certain of what it would hit, never looked down the barrel unless cleaning it, and then only from the ammo end out. It's only a tool. And even as a kid I never had anything but the utmost respect for it's potential for misuse.

The gun came to me from my father and it had a gouge in the stock that was a constant reminder to me whenever I handled it that came from the story behind it. The gouge came from when my father was carrying it, when he was younger, and he was out hunting with it slung under his arm. It was struck by a bullet from another hunter on the other side of a hill - out of line of sight. Every time I handled it I was reminded by the blemish of the power of chance, and the responsibility of the person pulling the trigger, and the thought that there but for that blemish I might never have been.

 

[Proton Soup]

You must be really old then.

Letting children play with guns is an indicator of bad society. If they grow up with weapons, they will be more dependent on those weapons which is unhealthy. Whenever there's a problem, they would think of guns and assume that every problem can be solved with them! It's just my opionion and I realize that I am going with the extreme cases ...

sorry, but this isn't quite right. sure, he shouldn't have adults teaching him to treat guns as toys the way these guys were doing. i believe in gun ownership, and own one, but don't understand some guys' fascination with blowing up pumpkins. not that i didn't go through such a destructive phase, but i was about 12.

but in general, a gun culture, at least in the traditional rural hunting sense, doesn't imply violence. the normal way of going about it is to give a kid a toy gun and teach him not to point even the toy at people. when he shows he can handle the toy responsibly, he can upgrade to a low-power BB gun. then a pellet gun, and eventually a .22, etc. raised properly, he doesn't think of it as a weapon, it's a powerful tool that demands responsibility.

4-H even used to do this in high schools: http://www.4-hshootingsports.org/

 

[rootX]

sorry, but this isn't quite right.

but don't understand some guys' fascination with blowing up pumpkins. not that i didn't go through such a destructive phase, but i was about 12.

For hunting:

I am strongly against killing innocents (all living beings), thus against weapons that are used more for aggression than for defense, but in here I mentioned earlier that

It's just my opionion and I realize that I am going with the extreme cases ...

I should also mention (before someone else points this out) that there's a difference between hunting animals for fun and huting them for food and I am non-vegetarian.

P.S. I haven't touched any impacts on society in this post.

 

[Integral]

You must be really old then.

Letting children play with guns is an indicator of bad society. If they grow up with weapons, they will be more dependent on those weapons which is unhealthy. Whenever there's a problem, they would think of guns and assume that every problem can be solved with them! It's just my opionion and I realize that I am going with the extreme cases ...

I am sorry this is udder nonsense. A gun is NOT a toy, just because you teach a child to handle a gun does not mean it is a toy. Quite the opposite, children taught to safely handle and respect fire arms are not going treat them like toys. It is kids who are NOT taught proper firearms safety that get into trouble when they happen to get their hands on a weapon.

A persons approach to problem solving in completely independent of their familiarity or in familiarity with firearms.

The simple fact is, any house with a firearms and children, the children should be taught firearms safety and respect.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

In general I'm not so hot on the idea of guns, for reasons like what happens when they're handled carelessly like in this story, but if someone is going to have access to and use them during the course of their life it makes sense to me to start exposing them to it at a young age.

⚛​

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

When I saw the thread title, I thought he must be an American.

And yes, he was...

Congratulations on having your prejudice confirmed.

 

[Borek]

Congratulations on having your prejudice confirmed.

I don't think it is a prejudice, I think it is statistics. My first idea was that it happened in US as well. I can be wrong, but I am not aware of any other country in which "gun culture" is as strong as in America.

I am not judging it - this is just a statement of fact.

 

[cristo]

When I saw the thread title, I thought he must be an American.

And yes, he was...

Is that because the thread title includes the word "Mass." which is short for Massachusetts?

 

[russ_watters]

You must be really old then.

Letting children play with guns is an indicator of bad society. If they grow up with weapons, they will be more dependent on those weapons which is unhealthy.

That's just nonsense. I was a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout and my family farmers and I grew up occasionally shooting guns. I'm not sure how old I was, when I started. That is a pretty normal thing.

There is significant virtue in learning proper respect for guns (giving an 8 year old an Uzi does not qualify imo).

This complete aversion to guns people have today is a relatively new thing and indicates more about the people who hold the opinion: they are overly sheltered and naive about guns.

It's just my opionion and I realize that I am going with the extreme cases ...

Yes, you are. Basing an opinion soley on an extreme case is not a reasonable way to generate an opinion.

[edit] Fyi, I'm 32 and I probably started Cub Scouts around 3rd or 4th grade, so I would have been 8-10 the first time I shot a gun too. I don't imagine it is any different for Cub Scouts today.

I wonder what fraction of people who use guns for murder started off firing guns in Cub Scouts.

 

[Kurdt]

I wonder what fraction of people who use guns for murder started off firing guns in Cub Scouts.

Does it really matter? I doubt it is the cub scouts teaching people to be responsible with firearms that turns potential murderers into nice citizens. I'd be willing to bet that the background circumstances that turn the majority of people into murderers would be such that they'd never go there in the first place. In which case that is not the success of the cub scouts, but rather the failure of society.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I don't think it is a prejudice, I think it is statistics.

What statistics are you referring to? On 8 year old boys shooting themselves to death? Where did you get this statistic. Or did you apply some other statistic?

 

[B. Elliott]

I am sorry this is udder nonsense. A gun is NOT a toy, just because you teach a child to handle a gun does not mean it is a toy. Quite the opposite, children taught to safely handle and respect fire arms are not going treat them like toys. It is kids who are NOT taught proper firearms safety that get into trouble when they happen to get their hands on a weapon.

A persons approach to problem solving in completely independent of their familiarity or in familiarity with firearms.

The simple fact is, any house with a firearms and children, the children should be taught firearms safety and respect.

That's just nonsense. I was a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout and my family farmers and I grew up occasionally shooting guns. I'm not sure how old I was, when I started. That is a pretty normal thing.

There is significant virtue in learning proper respect for guns (giving an 8 year old an Uzi does not qualify imo).

This complete aversion to guns people have today is a relatively new thing and indicates more about the people who hold the opinion: they are overly sheltered and naive about guns.
Yes, you are. Basing an opinion soley on an extreme case is not a reasonable way to generate an opinion.

[edit] Fyi, I'm 32 and I probably started Cub Scouts around 3rd or 4th grade, so I would have been 8-10 the first time I shot a gun too. I don't imagine it is any different for Cub Scouts today.

I wonder what fraction of people who use guns for murder started off firing guns in Cub Scouts.

I think these two posts sum up my opinion on the subject. I was also taught proper handgun and rifle safety at a very young age. I can't remember exactly, but it must have been somewhere around seven or eight. Started off with a .22 rifle, then stepped up to a 30-30, then a .308, then various shotguns, and then later on to higher caliber pistols. I was also taught how to properly maintain them and most importantly, what not to do. I can't even think of the number of times that I've winced while watching someone handle a firearm;... swinging it around carelessly, not keeping the barrel pointed down or up, not checking to see if there is a round in the chamber, ect.

IMO, the majority of gun accidents can easily be tied to nothing but pure ignorance, carelessness and inattention when it comes to proper safety. If you're not taught to respect weapons, you're just asking for something bad to happen if you're ever presented with a situation where you will use one. This sad accident about the 8 year old boy, is a prime example.

 

[Astronuc]

Letting children play with guns is an indicator of bad society. If they grow up with weapons, they will be more dependent on those weapons which is unhealthy. Whenever there's a problem, they would think of guns and assume that every problem can be solved with them! It's just my opionion and I realize that I am going with the extreme cases ...

Certainly letting children 'play' with guns would be reckless and irresponsible. As far as I know, most adults with guns do not let children play with them. On the other hand, children do play with toy guns, water pistols, cap guns, and there is some theory that letting children play with toy weapons is not conducive to a more peaceful society.

I think one learns violence (including use of guns) by watching others use violence (including guns), and that does unfortunately happen in some families and communities. However, given the prevalence of guns in American society, there is remarkably a low rate of gun violence.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm

The US has a moderate homicide rate (and apparently leads G7 and industrialized nation in that statistic).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_murder_rate

I'm not sure where one would find statistics on accidental shootings or deaths on an international basis, but there are stats of US.
http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/yourchild/guns.htm

I was about 10-11 when I fired a real gun. My family visited another family who lived on a ranch. We got to go out and shoot targets with a hand gun and rifle. During summer, I attended a church camp, and target practice (with pellet rifles) was one activity. I participated in Boy Scouts, and we occasionally went out in the countryside and did target practice with rifles and shotguns (skeet shooting). My brother had a BB-rifle. I got pretty good at hitting small targets from a distance.

However, as an adult, I do not own a gun, nor am I inclined to own one.

 

[Claws]

why why WHY are there ammunition at a gun show?? I know that to some, Europe is considered a bit too conservative when it comes to gunlaws, but you would NEVER find ammunition at a gunshow here. Visitors are checked with metal-detectors at entry and exit.
That being said, this could also have happened at a gun-range since his parents are so irresponsible as to let an 8 year old use a fully automatic weapon. It completely blows my mind (and the 8yo kid, sorry).

/C

 

[Borek]

What statistics are you referring to? On 8 year old boys shooting themselves to death? Where did you get this statistic. Or did you apply some other statistic?

Number of guns being held in private hands per capita. To quote BBC site:

The United States has the largest number of guns in private hands of any country in the world with 60 million people owning a combined arsenal of over 200 million firearms.

That's about 0.66 gun per American. In Poland there are about 0.5 mln firearms, which gives about 0.013 gun per Pole - 50 times less. This statistics tells me that there must be many more gun related accidents in US than in Poland. Add to that fact that America has almost 8 times larger population. Now you may replace Poland with almost every other country in the world, and numbers will tell you more or less the same.

Once again - I am not telling it is bad or good. I am just applying common reason to numbers - most gun related accidents must happen in America (excluding places where there is war, civil war, or simply no army/police to enforce some kind of law and order).

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I am just applying common reason to numbers

That's not stats, that applying common reason.

 

[Astronuc]

why why WHY are there ammunition at a gun show?? I know that to some, Europe is considered a bit too conservative when it comes to gunlaws, but you would NEVER find ammunition at a gunshow here. Visitors are checked with metal-detectors at entry and exit.
That being said, this could also have happened at a gun-range since his parents are so irresponsible as to let an 8 year old use a fully automatic weapon. It completely blows my mind (and the 8yo kid, sorry).

/C

Apparently the point of attending the show, according to advertisements, was the purpose to fire guns, particularly automatic weapons. The authorities are investigating to see if any laws were violated. The father was negligent and he paid the highest price than any parent could pay - the death of his son. There is no worse punishment for a parent.

 

[LowlyPion]

... the normal way of going about it is to give a kid a toy gun and teach him not to point even the toy at people. when he shows he can handle the toy responsibly, he can upgrade to a low-power BB gun. then a pellet gun, and eventually a .22, etc. raised properly, he doesn't think of it as a weapon, it's a powerful tool that demands responsibility.

To this day, when I see kids point non shooting toy guns, I still insist they point the barrel away from people or pets. With air pistols most especially, I will take it away regardless of whether they say there is nothing in it. That is a lesson that must be learned. It's sadly an all too often repeated excuse, and to some too foolish to know their last words with real guns. You can prevent ever having to say you didn't know by never doing it in the first place. No exceptions.

In large part I think some video games have dumbed down thoughts of gun responsibility, numbed kids with a culture of indifference as to the consequences as bodies simply disappear from the games, and generally give license to acting stupid with guns. Entertaining to some perhaps ... but entertainment with unfortunate dividends.

 

[LowlyPion]

There is no worse punishment for a parent.

I don't know. I wouldn't object if he was further punished.

The gun show too.

Put a few heads on poles outside as an example that people don't forget.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

True story: When I was around 8, I played in the my neighborhood with some friends. We would play with toy guns all the time. One day I had a toy shotgun and the mailman came by and I started fake shooting at him. Apparently it scared the crap of of him and he bolted away. An hour later a cop came around and said someone was pointing a shot gun at him. Being a young kid I told the cop it was a kid down the street. Anyway. I don't blame the mailman at all. Looking back, the shotgun was fairly life like. I certainly was not a violent kid, if not a bit of a pansy and I ended up growing up non-violent too. But I had no idea the ramifications of pointing a fake gun at someone would have. I blame my friends parents for having the toy guns around. There was no need for them, we could have easily found other things to do.

 

[JasonRox]

I'm Canadian. Never shot a gun, never seen a gun being shot, and never seen a gun in public other than on a police officer.

 

[turbo]

The tragedy is that this "accident" was thoroughly preventable through a bit of common sense. A 9mm round does not have much recoil, BUT the combined effect of a burst of 9mm rounds going off in quick succession could challenge the hand strength of a small-statured adult if they are not prepared for the muzzle climb, especially with a light gun like an Uzi. Add in the fact that the grips are sized for adult hands, and the "accident" was a high-probability event.

 

[Kurdt]

I've never even seen a police officer with a gun. We have sticks

 

[rootX]

Certainly letting children 'play' with guns would be reckless and irresponsible. As far as I know, most adults with guns do not let children play with them. On the other hand, children do play with toy guns, water pistols, cap guns, and there is some theory that letting children play with toy weapons is not conducive to a more peaceful society.

Yes, that what I was thinking. These tiny things determine the behavior and actions of the future society.

That also includes violent games, movies etc ..
In old days, no one really cared what children do, but now I see (at least in my country)
that they try to not to expose children to any violence or weapons, rather instill peace/morals into their minds through all those children movies or cartoons. That's why I really love Hayao Miyazaki movies. They are simple yet deliver very powerful meanings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayao_Miyazaki#Themes_and_devices

 

[drankin]

Yes, that what I was thinking. These tiny things determine the behavior and actions of the future society.

That also includes violent games, movies etc ..
In old days, no one really cared what children do, but now I see (at least in my country)
that they try to not to expose children to any violence or weapons, rather instill peace/morals into their minds through all those children movies or cartoons. That's why I really love Hayao Miyazaki movies. They are simple yet deliver very powerful meanings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayao_Miyazaki#Themes_and_devices

I understand your line of reasoning but children (particularly boys) will play war/cowboys&indians/pirates etc. and fashion sticks to use as guns, knives, and swords. Adults can discourage this but it really is contrary to their nature. Exposure to the real thing is beneficial when done correctly. But, exposure does not need to include fully automatic weapons in order to teach proper respect to firearms.

 

[Gokul43201]

Why should a 8 year old get hands on any weapon regardless of an adult presence?

Why not? I was about that age when I first shot a gun.

8-year olds are rarely allowed to perform surgery in the local hospital either. Not everyone is Integral or Doogie Howser.

You've got to wait till you're 18 to smoke a cigarette, till 21 to drink a beer ... but if you want to go about shooting assault weapons, a toddler in diapers is qualified.

 

[BobG]

8-year olds are rarely allowed to perform surgery in the local hospital either. Not everyone is Integral or Doogie Howser.

You've got to wait till you're 18 to smoke a cigarette, till 21 to drink a beer ... but if you want to go about shooting assault weapons, a toddler in diapers is qualified.

Smoking cigarettes and drinking beer aren't protected by the Constitution.

A better parallel would probably be voting. That's a guaranteed right, as well.

Actually, I don't have a problem with kids around 10 or 11 or maybe a couple years older gaining familiarity with weapons in either a structured environment like Boy Scouts or under the supervision of adults. The big problem in this instance was the decision making of the adults.

 

[Astronuc]

I've never even seen a police officer with a gun. We have sticks

I've had undercover police officers pull guns on me and point them at my head and chest. Interesting experience it was.

 

[Astronuc]

8-year olds are rarely allowed to perform surgery in the local hospital either. Not everyone is Integral or Doogie Howser.

You've got to wait till you're 18 to smoke a cigarette, till 21 to drink a beer ... but if you want to go about shooting assault weapons, a toddler in diapers is qualified.

I was about 13 when I first smoked a cigarette, and about 14 when I had my first substantial drink - Whisky, Rum, Vodka, . . . .

In my neighborhood, there was a girl whose parents had a well stocked liquor cabinet. Prior to that, I had sipped wine from my parents' glasses at holiday dinners. If one knew the right people, it was easy to buy alcohol.

Another friend had a mother who smoked, and he used to go to the local store to buy cigarettes for her - and himself. It was easy to buy cigarettes.

 

[phyzmatix]

I've had undercover police officers pull guns on me and point them at my head and chest. Interesting experience it was.

Dare I ask why?

EDIT: I removed the next bit obviously AFTER Astronuc already quoted

Think (1) I'd prob **** myself and (2) once it's been established that I am no longer in any danger, I'd be PISSED!

 

[Astronuc]

Dare I ask why? Think (1) I'd prob **** myself and (2) once it's been established that I am no longer in any danger, I'd be PISSED!

I was with a friend who was doing a favor for another of his friends. The package contained an illicit substance, and the police were waiting to bust whoever showed up to claim the package. I didn't have any ID on me, because I wasn't driving, so they thought I was the one receiving the package. They police were just doing their job.

 

[phyzmatix]

I was with a friend who was doing a favor for another of his friends. The package contained an illicit substance, and the police were waiting to bust whoever showed up to claim the package. I didn't have any ID on me, because I wasn't driving, so they thought I was the one receiving the package. They police were just doing their job.

I must admit that I also had friends like these

Must still have been a nerve-wrecking experience.

 

[Astronuc]

I must admit that I also had friends like these

Must still have been a nerve-wrecking experience.

No, not really. It was just an interesting experience.

 

[Coheda]

</didn'treadthethread>

What an idiot. This guy deserves life in prision for being a moron. Giving his EIGHT YEAR OLD SON an AUTOMATIC weapon?

What?!

That's horribly irresponbile and retarded. The kid was EIGHT. He couldn't have been shooting anything larger than a .22 for more than a year. Hell, just the other day I saw some 19 year old idiot shoot himself in the hand because he couldn't control his handgun when it fired in automatic, much less an EIGHT year old. What a dumbass.

 

[Evo]

I've had undercover police officers pull guns on me and point them at my head and chest. Interesting experience it was.

I had a police officer pull a gun on me while I was taking a shower. Beat that!

 

[vanesch]

I had a police officer pull a gun on me while I was taking a shower. Beat that!

Mmm. Lots of things come to mind here What kind of gun ?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I had a police officer pull a gun on me while I was taking a shower. Beat that!

I can't. I was stopped for a headlight violation once and when I opened the glove compartment to get the paperwork, there was a butterknife there. Even though I didn't touch the knife, the officer told me that if she had a partner with her, she would have pulled her gun on me on account of the knife. I don't know why she needed a partner to do that, but anyway she didn't do it. When I got home I cleaned out the glove compartment and the door wells. There was a steak knife there. It was three grades duller than the butter knife, but I think she would have plugged me if she had seen it and asked questions later. I mean if she had a partner with her.

 

[turbo]

I had a police officer pull a gun on me while I was taking a shower. Beat that!

I was on the other end of that exchange once. My wife was in rough shape after a serious car accident, and (luckily) I was home and not working that early-morning shift. She woke me, saying that she heard someone downstairs, and I padded down there very quietly, swung around the dividing wall between the stairway and the kitchen, and aimed for a head-shot before I hollered at the intruder. It turned out to be her sister's son. He said that he had car trouble and let himself into use the phone (we didn't lock doors much then). I told him to get out, and strangely, he had no problem driving away, chirping his tires when he hit the pavement. I was naked, though I was nicely accessorized with a Colt Python loaded with .357 hollow-points. Years later, he entered my wife's cousin's place while she and her husband were asleep, and stole some clothing, watches, and other stuff. Maybe I should have dropped the creep and then hollered to get his attention.