- #106
Gokul43201
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:roflcopters:cristo said:That's a very well thought out and relevant comment. Thank you.
:roflcopters:cristo said:That's a very well thought out and relevant comment. Thank you.
That article was written just a year after Katrina. Now that people have had a chance to reexamine things it appears that the post-Katrina crime wave was a tad overhyped. One real problem with those Katrina evacuees is that most of their kids went to Louisiana public schools. That problem is also more or less non-existent now. Those Katrina kids now doing quite well in Texas schools.Math Is Hard said:
In what sense? Legal immigrants still arrive at the rate of http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?id=730" . I expect that figure would be much higher but for the flux of illegal immigrants, especially from Mexico. Annecdotally, I have friends that have migrated here from the UK and Russia that became US citizens.cristo said:I guess my main point of that post you quote is twofold. Firstly, the American dream as seen from the outside is somewhat hypocritical, since while people are encouraged to work and better themselves, they are not really given the chance to.
Clearly there is some legal immigration now, there are many legal latin american immigrants, and I again I expect there would be more if the border was controlled.But secondly, I was merely trying to make the point that your typical Mexican will have no chance of legally getting into the US.
Thanks for the correction. I was using a poor source (or, perhaps, I was using it poorly): http://www.thecommonwealth.org/YearbookHomeInternal/139560/cristo said:English is only the de facto official language of the UK (much like it is in the US).
I mentioned biligual schools in the sense of helping immigrants integrate into society. Are the French, the biggest immigrant community in the UK? I thought the biggest communities were from the Indian subcontinent, Africa, and more recently, Eastern Europe.The UK has started to open bilingual schools (e.g. there are some French-English schools in London).
I'm not criticizing the existence of the schools - just pointing out that they are not relevant to immigrant populations.Yes, but these are British people who speak another language as their first language (and, in fact, have that language as their official language-- welsh is the official language of wales).
Is the citizenship on the 10th birthday automatic? Does the child have to be a resident in the UK for that period? Is there an application process, and what does it involve? If you have a reference for this, that would be nice.Not automatic, but a child born here illegally becomes a citizen on his 10th birthday.
I agree, and I'm not trying to draw a parallel between the UK and the US. I am merely trying to locate the basis for the claims that the US is particularly unfair in its immigration policy. And I can't see a better way than to compare with the immigration policies of other countries.I really don't think you can draw a parallel between the UK and the US, since we are two very different countries. European countries have complex immigration situations that do not exist in the US (for example, a billion people have the right to come and live in the UK simply because they are European).
adaptation said:I agree with everything you said except for the physical barrier part. You remeber the Berlin Wall? Great wall of China? The Maginot Line? There are probably others I don't know about. I think if people had more incentive to stay in Mexico, it would be much more effective than any wall
Gokul43201 said:Thanks for the correction. I was using a poor source (or, perhaps, I was using it poorly): http://www.thecommonwealth.org/YearbookHomeInternal/139560/
I mentioned biligual schools in the sense of helping immigrants integrate into society. Are the French, the biggest immigrant community in the UK? I thought the biggest communities were from the Indian subcontinent, Africa, and more recently, Eastern Europe.
Is the citizenship on the 10th birthday automatic? Does the child have to be a resident in the UK for that period? Is there an application process, and what does it involve? If you have a reference for this, that would be nice.
I agree, and I'm not trying to draw a parallel between the UK and the US. I am merely trying to locate the basis for the claims that the US is particularly unfair in its immigration policy. And I can't see a better way than to compare with the immigration policies of other countries.
adaptation said:Cyrus, I agree with everything you said except for the physical barrier part. You remeber the Berlin Wall? Great wall of China? The Maginot Line? There are probably others I don't know about. I think if people had more incentive to stay in Mexico, it would be much more effective than any wall.
I live in China. While there is a general sense of fascination with western culture and the United States in particular here, there is a lot of ill sentiment in regards to our foreign policy. In my job I meet people from all over the world. The general sentiment is the same: the individual American might be alright, but our government is not. It's harder when I might people who are not this open minded...
People ask me if I know that the US is referred to as "The World Police." (The assumption is, I don't know bad stuff about my own country.) Believe it or not, they don't mean "police" in a good way. They mean we stick our noses where they don't belong. We deal unfairly with weaker nations so we'll come out on top. We close our borders to the countries whose population is poor or not predominantly white. (I'm talking perception. Whether or not it's true, is a whole other discussion.)
Considering the intention of the amendment, I'll concede that it's probably a stretch to extend it to illegal immigrants. I don't have any objection to being true to the spirit of the constitution. What bothers me here is the way people are trying to go about this.
Immigrants, especially illegal ones, always become a target when economic trouble is around. They are the classic scapegoat. "Those immigrants took my job/scholarship/place in line/etc." "I'm sick of paying for those immigrants to (insert just about anything here).
The real question is: Why are they coming to the US illegally? Until we address this problem in a thoughtful, non-reactionary, long term perspective way, the problem will persist. No amount of walls or changes to who becomes a citizen are going to solve the problem permanently.
Cristo, if I steal a car and give it to my kid, then the government takes that car away from my kid, would you call that punishment for the kid? It is rediculous to call removal of an illegally obtained benefit a punishment.cristo said:But the child hasn't done anything illegal. Why should it be punished?
Rights are protections, not financial gifts - healthcare has no basis for being called a "right" and does not fit with the concept of rights. By taking things that have no logical/philosophical/theoretical basis as rights and granting them the status of rights, you create the above incongruity. It is fine that you believe that the government should be made to provide such things, but they are not rights, they are simply government services like roads and museums.... by not allowing the child citizenship, you are denying the child things like healthcare or education (both of which I appreciate some of you do not class as human rights).
Isn't that exactly the problem the US has and how is it a problem for the UK? If those billion people suddenly decided that the healthcare in the UK was better and streamed across the English channel, the UK could not support them. But they don't do that because Europe is relatively homogenous - all countries are on nearly the same level - and there is no need for a French person to go to the UK to get better free services. Mexicans come to the US precisely because we are not on the same level. With rare exceptions (ie, Yugoslavian refugees), Europe doesn't have this problem. If it did, it would have to deal with it to avoid the drag on its economies.I really don't think you can draw a parallel between the UK and the US, since we are two very different countries. European countries have complex immigration situations that do not exist in the US (for example, a billion people have the right to come and live in the UK simply because they are European).
russ_watters said:Cristo, if I steal a car and give it to my kid, then the government takes that car away from my kid, would you call that punishment for the kid? It is rediculous to call removal of an illegally obtained benefit a punishment.
The cause is this: Rights are protections, not financial gifts - healthcare has no basis for being called a "right" and does not fit with the concept of rights.
Cyrus said:LOL, the declaration of human toilet paper, as I call it. It's great for wiping one's backside.
cristo said:Why does that not surprise me.
Article 25
Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Cyrus said:I don't feel like working cristo, you pay taxes so I can enjoy my right to security during my unemployment. Really, this isn't a right, this is a welfare program.
cristo said:Try reading. How does you not wanting to work fit into a "lack of livelihood beyond [your] control"?
Article 24 Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
Article 26
Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
Article 12
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation.
Cyrus said:I want free school, gimme that too. It's my RIGHT.
That's it I am running for office, and don't you dare attack my honor or reputation as Corrupt Governor Cyrus!
cristo said:Did you read that either? It says that elementary and fundamental education should be free, and that higher education should be accessible to all based upon merit and not on the ability to pay. Obviously, the US does not uphold the latter!
cristo said:Cyrus, what does the word "arbitrary" mean in the first line of the article you quoted?
Cyrus said:You'll have to excuse us silly AMURIKANS, with our top higher education system in the world.
cristo said:Top higher education system? I must have missed that memo.
Article 25 Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance.
Cyrus said:You know, ...MIT, Stanford, Caltech, Harvard, etc.
cristo said:Oh, I see, you mean the universities that are (mostly) ranked lower than the British universities.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/educ...0/02/25/worlds-best-universities-top-400.html
russ_watters said:The cause is this: Rights are protections, not financial gifts - healthcare has no basis for being called a "right" and does not fit with the concept of rights. By taking things that have no logical/philosophical/theoretical basis as rights and granting them the status of rights, you create the above incongruity. It is fine that you believe that the government should be made to provide such things, but they are not rights, they are simply government services like roads and museums.
Cyrus said:LOL, the declaration of human toilet paper, as I call it. It's great for wiping one's backside.
apeiron said:Cyrus, you're doing an outstanding job at confirming international prejudices about the way Americans really think. Congrats.
Try seeing the bigger picture. Why is Mexico a place which people might want to leave? Could it have anything to do with drugs and oil - the two biggest exports to the US?
The US is the prime customer in the trades that have created a corrupt and lazy state. (And when the oil revenues go into fast decline, the US really will have an angry mess on its doorstep.)
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_23/b4037051.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/americas/09iht-letter.1.19217792.html
So which country is actually undermining the social structure of the other here?
apeiron said:Cyrus, you're doing an outstanding job at confirming international prejudices about the way Americans really think. Congrats.
Try seeing the bigger picture. Why is Mexico a place which people might want to leave? Could it have anything to do with drugs and oil - the two biggest exports to the US?
So which country is actually undermining the social structure of the other here?
Are you seriously suggesting that the US is to be blamed for undermining the social structure of Mexico by purchasing the oil that Mexico wants to export? You would prefer that the US impose an embargo on Mexican Oil?apeiron said:Try seeing the bigger picture. Why is Mexico a place which people might want to leave? Could it have anything to do with drugs and oil - the two biggest exports to the US?
The US is the prime customer in the trades that have created a corrupt and lazy state. (And when the oil revenues go into fast decline, the US really will have an angry mess on its doorstep.)
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_23/b4037051.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/americas/09iht-letter.1.19217792.html
So which country is actually undermining the social structure of the other here?
apeiron said:Cyrus, you're doing an outstanding job at confirming international prejudices about the way Americans really think. Congrats.
Try seeing the bigger picture. Why is Mexico a place which people might want to leave? Could it have anything to do with drugs and oil - the two biggest exports to the US?
The US is the prime customer in the trades that have created a corrupt and lazy state. (And when the oil revenues go into fast decline, the US really will have an angry mess on its doorstep.)
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_23/b4037051.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/americas/09iht-letter.1.19217792.html
Higher education in this country is available for free through grants and scholarships to those with surpassing merit and an inability to pay. Those who can pay must pay. Those who can not pay but are not necessarily of great merit may have access to loans and such to help pay and may have those loans deferred, or even forgiven, if they choose to take on certain professions that directly benefit their community.cristo said:Did you read that either? It says that elementary and fundamental education should be free, and that higher education should be accessible to all based upon merit and not on the ability to pay. Obviously, the US does not uphold the latter!
I do not consider health care a "right" though it is my personal opinion that medical professionals have a duty to preform services for their community and that the state is obligated to financially assist all those that directly provide such essential services to the community in so far as is practicable. Taking an angle from this direction seems much more logical to me. The case could be made that the US government does not do all that is practicable to provide for such services and I would not necessarily disagree.SixNein said:In a basic nutshell, I would not call health-care a gift; instead, I would say it is in the best interest of self preservation even when the health-care is provided to others at some expense to yourself.
Well we don't want the violence, crime and border disorder that comes with it. Clearly many want Mexican drugs, even the odd non-inhaling US President.russ_watters said:...and we don't want their drugs.
Cyrus said:Ohhh, now I see ...the rest of the world wants to use MY money to benefit THEIR social problems, and cry foul if I don't give it up. Hmmmmmm, yeah. No.
apeiron said:Could it have anything to do with drugs and oil - the two biggest exports to the US?