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This is from a left-y site, but it was an astounding timeline. Have a look. I'd be curious if a similar right-y timeline existed.

http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

Skyhunter
pattylou said:
This is from a left-y site, but it was an astounding timeline. Have a look. I'd be curious if a similar right-y timeline existed.

http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline
If there is I bet they don't supply links to govt websites.

My guess is they will supply some blog quotes and a few op-ed pieces.
:rofl: :rofl:

Skyhunter said:
If there is I bet they don't supply links to govt websites.

My guess is they will supply some blog quotes and a few op-ed pieces.
:rofl: :rofl:
Remember when a certain member thought that the federal state of emergency had been declared two days after the hurricane struck, because of a NewsMax "article?" That was a riot.

There's not going to be a right-y one. THe only difference between the left and the right on this issue is wether or not it was all Brown's fault. That, and wether or not Bush was an innocent victim viciously and brutally deceived into hiring him.

There is an old axiom in the business world that goes something like: One tends to rise to the level of one's own incompetence.

Many political appointees have reached that level when they are appointed to a job that they know nothing about. The job was a political gift, Brown has risen to a level that was beyond his capabilities.

Except that Brownie managed to rise above his own incompetence. In fact, that's exactly what he was fired from his last job.

Pengwuino
Gold Member
Manchot said:
Remember when a certain member thought that the federal state of emergency had been declared two days after the hurricane struck, because of a NewsMax "article?" That was a riot.

Hey screw you :D I don't drown myself in left-wing blogs so that I can play teh blame game for every fart in the wind.

edward said:
There is an old axiom in the business world that goes something like: One tends to rise to the level of one's own incompetence.

Many political appointees have reached that level when they are appointed to a job that they know nothing about. The job was a political gift, Brown has risen to a level that was beyond his capabilities.

That's called the Peter Principle. I saw this principle play out time and again in the military.

Skyhunter
edward said:
There is an old axiom in the business world that goes something like: One tends to rise to the level of one's own incompetence.

Many political appointees have reached that level when they are appointed to a job that they know nothing about. The job was a political gift, Brown has risen to a level that was beyond his capabilities.
That is known as the 'Peter principle'

The Peter Principle is a theory originated by Dr. Laurence J. Peter. It states that successful members of a hierarchical organization are eventually promoted to their highest level of competence, after which further promotion raises them to a level just beyond their highest level of competence. The term is a pun on Sigmund Freud's theory of the pleasure principle.

The theory was set out in a humorous style in the book The Peter Principle, first published in 1969. Peter describes the theme of his book as hierarchiology. The central principle is stated in the book as follows:

In a Hierarchy Every Employee Tends to Rise to His Level of Incompetence.

I don't think it applies to political appointees, at least not in the case of 'Brownie', since he reached his level of incompetence as commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association.

He was asked to resign,'' Bill Pennington, president of the IAHA at the time, confirmed last night.

Pengwuino said:
Hey screw you :D I don't drown myself in left-wing blogs so that I can play teh blame game for every fart in the wind.

Nice integration of the current Republican run and hide talking point. "Blame game" Ha! If not now then when? When should we blame the moron(s) who botched this? When should political appointees be held to task? When should political appointers be held accountable for handing out kushy government jobs(which eventually lead to well paying lobbyist positions) to incompetents?

In the military, commanders are(or used to) held accountable to a certain extent for the actions of their underlings though commanders have little to no direct control over who they get to begin with. If a CO is in bed when a ship runs aground then the CO is held accountable a lot of the time even though the all officers and enlisted on a given ship are sent to the ship not requested by the CO.

Why doesn't this hold true for the president---even moreso because he selected these goons? Why can't or shouldn't we blame the top man for selecting an idiot who was consistently two days behind the news? Why not?

I know why.... because the current talking point says we shouldn't to protect the president from any nasty admissions of culpability in selecting an idiot. We all know the president is never wrong(as seen by his response to a question during one second or third Kerry/Bush debate) and as such needs the protection of all of the talking heads. Talking points---gotta love'em!

Skyhunter said:
That is known as the 'Peter principle'

I don't think it applies to political appointees, at least not in the case of 'Brownie', since he reached his level of incompetence as commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association.

HaHa beat you to it. Nanna-Nanna foo-foo!

Skyhunter
Pengwuino said:
Hey screw you :D I don't drown myself in left-wing blogs so that I can play teh blame game for every fart in the wind.
Oh you would like to play, you just don't want to be "IT"

Skyhunter
faust9 said:
HaHa beat you to it. Nanna-Nanna foo-foo!
I would have beat you except I was playing a game as well. :rofl:

Skyhunter said:
I would have beat you except I was playing a game as well. :rofl:

Now is not the time for the "blame game".

Evo
Mentor
pattylou said:
This is from a left-y site, but it was an astounding timeline. Have a look. I'd be curious if a similar right-y timeline existed.

http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline
I am absolutely amazed that the city of New Orleans didn't have better plans for evacuation and supplies ready for a storm like this. What the hell were they thinking? This was not the Federal government's responsibility.

Per pattylou's link "APPROXIMATELY 30,000 EVACUEES GATHER AT SUPERDOME WITH ROUGHLY 36 HOURS WORTH OF FOOD". Was the Superdome the plan the mayor had for storm evacuation? If it was, why wasn't it properly supplied? Is anyone calling for the head of that mayor? They should be.

What was the state's disaster plan? Has anyone posted that?

Again with the mayor, it's not just his fault. These plans have been neglected for years, decades even. The problem is not going to be fixed with a few heads on some pikes.

Evo
Mentor
Smurf said:
Again with the mayor, it's not just his fault. These plans have been neglected for years, decades even.
Using that reasoning, it's not Bush's fault either. But it doesn't take long term planning to have an evacuation plan and adequate food, water & medical supplies stored for an emergency.

The problem is not going to be fixed with a few heads on some pikes.
Can't hurt.

SOS2008
Gold Member
Evo said:
I am absolutely amazed that the city of New Orleans didn't have better plans for evacuation and supplies ready for a storm like this. What the hell were they thinking? This was not the Federal government's responsibility.

Per pattylou's link "APPROXIMATELY 30,000 EVACUEES GATHER AT SUPERDOME WITH ROUGHLY 36 HOURS WORTH OF FOOD". Was the Superdome the plan the mayor had for storm evacuation? If it was, why wasn't it properly supplied? Is anyone calling for the head of that mayor? They should be.

What was the state's disaster plan? Has anyone posted that?
All levels are to blame in some way, and yes the residents as well. If you know a major storm is approaching but have no transportation or some where else you can go, wouldn't you get some supplies together? I mean, I'm surprised there wasn't a run on the stores in the days preceding the storm.

And I've been hesitant to post this as I don't want it to be taken wrong, but when one sees footage of people looting (and I don't mean for necessities), and reports of rescuers being shot at, and a women who is complaining about relief efforts as she sits there smoking a cigarette (she manages to have cigarettes), it doesn't promote sympathy.

Yes, of course everyone is responsible. But that includes the federal government and Bush administration.

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Evo
Mentor
SOS2008 said:
All levels are to blame in some way, and yes the residents as well. If you know a major storm is approaching but have no transportation or some where else you can go, wouldn't you get some supplies together? I mean, I'm surprised there wasn't a rush on the stores in the days preceding the storm.

And I've been hesitant to post this as I don't want it to be taken wrong, but when one sees footage of people looting (and I don't mean for necessities), and reports of rescuers being shot at, and a women who is complaining about relief efforts as she sits there smoking a cigarette (she manages to have cigarettes), it doesn't promote sympathy.

Yes, of course everyone is responsible. But that includes the federal government and Bush administration.
Yes, thank you, everyone is responsible.

Evo said:
Using that reasoning, it's not Bush's fault either. But it doesn't take long term planning to have an evacuation plan and adequate food, water & medical supplies stored for an emergency.
It's not. It's the people's fault for electing him.
Can't hurt.

Hurkyl
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
Can't hurt.

Tell that to the guys with pikes for necks...

Smurf said:
It's not. It's the people's fault for electing him.

Why wont the problems be fixed if we lay blame at the feet of those responsible right now? Why do you think we can only operate in series not in parallel? We are fully capable of determine what went wrong and who screwed up in these first stages as we are a year from now. We are fully capable of continuing evacuation and pumping while castigating all levels for their failure. This "it's too early for the blame game" BS is overbaord and is being used to cover some butts until things cool down. It's not being used to speed recovery efforts in the least only to prevent an immediate eye from looking into things.

Pengwuino said:
Hey screw you :D I don't drown myself in left-wing blogs so that I can play teh blame game for every fart in the wind.
I don't read blogs (unless someone links to one from here). You see, I get my information from this wonderful media called "the news." It takes on many forms: web sites, newspapers, magazines, and television programs. In fact, if you read/watch the news on a daily basis, and have a memory that spans beyond two weeks ago, then you can draw your own conclusions, instead of needing them to be manufactured for you by NewsMax.com (which, despite its name, is in fact not a news site, as you demonstrated in that other topic).

BobG
Homework Helper
Evo said:
I am absolutely amazed that the city of New Orleans didn't have better plans for evacuation and supplies ready for a storm like this. What the hell were they thinking? This was not the Federal government's responsibility.

Per pattylou's link "APPROXIMATELY 30,000 EVACUEES GATHER AT SUPERDOME WITH ROUGHLY 36 HOURS WORTH OF FOOD". Was the Superdome the plan the mayor had for storm evacuation? If it was, why wasn't it properly supplied? Is anyone calling for the head of that mayor? They should be.

What was the state's disaster plan? Has anyone posted that?
I find it hard to believe that there could be a good plan for evacuating an entire city the size of New Orleans - especially for a hurricane. The plan for evacuation was unrealistic to begin with, but stated on paper that 72 hours would be required for evacuation. For Katrina, New Orleans had 66 hours, at best, and it would have required a commitment to evacuate in spite of the fact that the hurricane could shift it's track significantly in 66 hours. The plan called for mass transit evacuation of those without the capability to evacuate on their own. You could say that an attempt at evacuating residents would have saved some lives and human suffering, but it would have been a pretty meager effort in the big picture.

Bus drivers aren't exactly emergency response workers. A coworker of mine retorted "The mayor could pay them overtime", but I'm not sure a lot of them would have told their family, "Hey, honey, I'm going to work. You got the home front. Pack up our kids and belongings and get out of town. See you in a couple days or so." Even if a large portion of the drivers showed up, the first ones out of town still wouldn't have had a destination.

Even including an evacuation plan for the poor of New Orleans was bureaucratic pretentiousness - "Hey, we have to say we'll do something". It was pretty telling that the idea of mass transit evacuation was the first part of the plan tossed out the window when the reality of a Cat 4 hurricane set in.

As for the Superdome, the city's plan was for the hurricane to be a Cat 3 so everyone could leave the Superdome and go home after the storm. A Cat 4 is simply beyond the capability of a city.

The decision on the number of hurricane deaths per century was made when the levee system was built to withstand a Cat 3 hurricane. Deaths per century is the key part of the decision - no one could decide they'll accept 10,000 dead in their city next week or next year - the date of the disaster has to be ambiguously in the future.

A Cat 4 hurricane in a town like New Orleans is just too big a disaster for any city to be capable of responding to. In fact, it's too big for even a state the size of Louisiana to respond to. A disaster that big would be hard for a state the size of California or New York to respond to. You have to have a federal response to a disaster as big as Katrina.

In fairness to FEMA, though, it looks like they did have huge amounts of water and supplies available before the storm, so claims they did nothing aren't exactly true. Unfortunately, the vast majority of it was deployed to Alabama and aid slowly spread from East to West, with the biggest disaster happening to be on the Western end of the supply chain. FEMA was there, but the response was slow and it seemed impossible to make the system react flexibly towards the areas of greatest need. Alabama received good support, Mississippi not as good, but about so-so, and Louisiana's support was inadequate.