High School Any plausible explanation for dynamical length contraction?

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The discussion centers on the concept of dynamical length contraction in relation to Special Relativity (SR) and Lorentz Ether Theory (LET). The original poster expresses discomfort with the ad hoc nature of LET, particularly regarding the Lorentz-FitzGerald contraction, and questions whether dynamical length contraction contradicts current physical laws. Participants clarify that dynamical length contraction implies an absolute frame, which contradicts the established law that no such frame exists. The conversation also touches on the philosophical implications of SR, particularly the idea of an "open future," and the challenges of reconciling LET with observed phenomena without introducing unnecessary complexities. Ultimately, the consensus leans toward the view that LET is ad hoc and lacks a solid foundation in current physics.
  • #31
PAllen said:
In my opinion, 1 and 3 are problematic. Simultaneity is not relative, it simply doesn’t exist except as a human convention.
In the argument I was refuting, 1. is simply taking relativity of simultaneity in SR, in the way it is usually treated, as given. I did not cast any doubt on that particular premise in the Insights article. I agree simultaneity is a convention, but as it is usually used in SR (i.e., as it is defined by inertial frames), it is a relative convention, so to speak.

PAllen said:
And 3 is a leap without foundation.
As I said in the article, if the premise 2. as it is used in the argument I was refuting (see my post #30 just now), is accepted as true, then the block universe interpretation does follow. But, as I said in the article, premise 2. as it is used in the argument I was refuting is not logically required by SR. It's an extra premise that is smuggled into the argument. If you replace it by my alternate premise 2., the one about past light cones, the argument falls apart; then 3. is indeed a leap without foundation, as you say.
 
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  • #32
PeterDonis said:
No. The second claim you state is my alternative to the claim that is used to justify the argument I was refuting. The claim that is used in the argument I was refuting is: 2. All events to the past of the surface of simultaneity of a person at a moment in time are fixed.
Hold on, just to make sure I am getting you. You are saying that the original argument cuts too broad an area around a person's event to include a bit too much in it, whereas in your scenario you only demand that past lightcones be fixed, a much narrower zone, that thus evades the final conclusion, right?
 
  • #33
PeterDonis said:
In the argument I was refuting, 1. is simply taking relativity of simultaneity in SR, in the way it is usually treated, as given. I did not cast any doubt on that particular premise in the Insights article. I agree simultaneity is a convention, but as it is usually used in SR (i.e., as it is defined by inertial frames), it is a relative convention, so to speak.
Yes, but I think it is important also to emphasize the personal choice involved. In particular, a person riding a bike back and forth is likely to choose Earth centered coordinates to do local physics. If interested in the solar system, they might choose sun centered coordinates. If interested in stars in the milkyway, they might choose milkyway centered coordinates. These are all free choices depending on convenience for a problem, and none of them carries any physical significance whatsoever, in particular, no such choices determine what is fixed and determined.
 
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  • #34
alexandrinushka said:
You are saying that the original argument cuts too broad an area around a person's event to include a bit too much in it, whereas in your scenario you only demand that past lightcones be fixed, a much narrower zone, that thus evades the final conclusion, right?
Basically, yes. But the key difference is that the past light cone of a given event is invariant, whereas surfaces of simultaneity are frame-dependent (or, if you prefer, simultaneity convention dependent). So saying that the past light cone of a given event is fixed is an invariant statement, whereas saying that all events to the past of a surface of simultaneity that contains a given event is not.
 
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  • #35
It occurs to me that one could even choose to claim that everything not in my causal future is fixed and determined, and then the whole andromeda argument still breaks down completely. It only works by attaching significance to categories that are have no physical significance in relativity: coordinate present, past, and future
 
  • #36
PAllen said:
It occurs to me that one could even choose to claim that everything not in my causal future is fixed and determined, and then the whole andromeda argument still breaks down completely.
The andromeda argument as it is usually given does (sort of--but see comments at the end below), but your claim leaves open a slightly different argument that does not break down. If, for example, all events not in the causal future (i.e., past light cone plus spacelike separated "elsewhere") of the Andromedans launching the space fleet are fixed and certain, that includes events in our causal future here on Earth. And similarly for us with regard to events in the causal future of the Andromedans launching the fleet. What's more, there will be events in "elsewhere" of both Earth and Andromeda, which are now, by this new premise, taken to be fixed and certain, whose "elsewhere" region includes the arrival of the Andromedan space fleet on Earth (just pick an event far enough away from both Earth and Andromeda). So this alternative premise does not avoid the block universe conclusion. (Basically, this alternative premise is where the block universe argument I described ends up, once you add relativity of simultaneity to the premise that all events to the past of any surface of simultaneity are fixed and certain. That's why it leads to the same conclusion.)
 
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  • #37
PeterDonis said:
The andromeda argument as it is usually given does (sort of--but see comments at the end below), but your claim leaves open a slightly different argument that does not break down. If, for example, all events not in the causal future (i.e., past light cone plus spacelike separated "elsewhere") of the Andromedans launching the space fleet are fixed and certain, that includes events in our causal future here on Earth. And similarly for us with regard to events in the causal future of the Andromedans launching the fleet. What's more, there will be events in "elsewhere" of both Earth and Andromeda, which are now, by this new premise, taken to be fixed and certain, whose "elsewhere" region includes the arrival of the Andromedan space fleet on Earth (just pick an event far enough away from both Earth and Andromeda). So this alternative premise does not avoid the block universe conclusion. (Basically, this alternative premise is where the block universe argument I described ends up, once you add relativity of simultaneity to the premise that all events to the past of any surface of simultaneity are fixed and certain. That's why it leads to the same conclusion.)
Yes, I see. It just leads to a version of the argument using invariants, rather than avoiding it entirely the way the past light cone boundary does.
 
  • #38
I have never been comfortable with the whole “fixed and certain” past and uncertain future anyway. If the world is deterministic then isn’t the future fixed and certain regardless of the causal structure? And if the world is non-deterministic then is even the past certain? To me it seems disconnected with the causal structure of spacetime.
 
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  • #39
Dale said:
I have never been comfortable with the whole “fixed and certain” past and uncertain future anyway. If the world is deterministic then isn’t the future fixed and certain regardless of the causal structure? And if the world is non-deterministic then is even the past certain? To me it seems disconnected with the causal structure of spacetime.
Interesting idea, but, in principle, now, I have information on everything in my causal past. It seems hard not to have this be fixed and certain. Even QM and QFT don’t change this, including entanglement.
 
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  • #40
Referring to post #3, thanks for your clarification. Historically Michelson Morley experiment expelled LET, I understand. The experiment suggests that the ether is at rest for every observer. How is it possible when two bodies with the observants have relative velocity ?
 
  • #41
PeterDonis said:
The andromeda argument as it is usually given does (sort of--but see comments at the end below), but your claim leaves open a slightly different argument that does not break down. If, for example, all events not in the causal future (i.e., past light cone plus spacelike separated "elsewhere") of the Andromedans launching the space fleet are fixed and certain, that includes events in our causal future here on Earth. And similarly for us with regard to events in the causal future of the Andromedans launching the fleet. What's more, there will be events in "elsewhere" of both Earth and Andromeda, which are now, by this new premise, taken to be fixed and certain, whose "elsewhere" region includes the arrival of the Andromedan space fleet on Earth (just pick an event far enough away from both Earth and Andromeda). So this alternative premise does not avoid the block universe conclusion. (Basically, this alternative premise is where the block universe argument I described ends up, once you add relativity of simultaneity to the premise that all events to the past of any surface of simultaneity are fixed and certain. That's why it leads to the same conclusion.)
A more succinct version of this argument is that any event in my causal future is within what is fixed and certain for some event within what is fixed and certain for me. So yes, you need to adopt past light cone as the fixed and certain boundary to avoid this.
 
  • #42
PeterDonis said:
Basically, yes. But the key difference is that the past light cone of a given event is invariant, whereas surfaces of simultaneity are frame-dependent (or, if you prefer, simultaneity convention dependent). So saying that the past light cone of a given event is fixed is an invariant statement, whereas saying that all events to the past of a surface of simultaneity that contains a given event is not.
To be honest, I am not sure that this weaker reading of Andromeda saves the uncertain future. I need to check and draw some diagrams myself and do some thinking. From what I remember from reading on it several years ago, I'd say that "no", even in this weaker reading we arrive to scenarios, where future must be fixed. But then again, I cannot affirm it with certainty. By the way, did you try to publish this refutation in order to get some P2P constructive criticism? I have a hard time believing that your alternative has evaded or hasn't crossed the minds of influential philosophers...
 
  • #43
alexandrinushka said:
I am not sure that this weaker reading of Andromeda saves the uncertain future.
I didn't say it did. My argument in the Insights article was not that the block universe is false. (Unfortunately, multiple people in the comment thread talked as though that was my argument, even though I repeatedly clarified that it wasn't.) My argument was simply that the block universe is not required by SR. It is not the only viewpoint that is logically consistent with SR. But it is a viewpoint that is logically consistent with SR, and I never said otherwise.

alexandrinushka said:
did you try to publish this refutation in order to get some P2P constructive criticism?
I didn't have to; I'm not the only one that's made those observations. IIRC there was at least one peer-reviewed paper linked to in the comment thread on the Insights article that made similar criticisms to mine.
 
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  • #44
PeterDonis said:
I didn't say it did.
It definitely saves the possibility of uncertain future. The proof seems trivial:

1) For me, what is fixed and certain is within my past light cone.
2) For any event in my past light cone, its past light cone is a subset of mine (trivial mathematics). Therefore, no event that is fixed and certain for me has events fixed and certain for it that are not already fixed and certain for me.
 
  • #45
alexandrinushka said:
To be honest, I am not sure that this weaker reading of Andromeda saves the uncertain future. I need to check and draw some diagrams myself and do some thinking. From what I remember from reading on it several years ago, I'd say that "no", even in this weaker reading we arrive to scenarios, where future must be fixed. But then again, I cannot affirm it with certainty. By the way, did you try to publish this refutation in order to get some P2P constructive criticism? I have a hard time believing that your alternative has evaded or hasn't crossed the minds of influential philosophers...
I don't want to change the subject too much, but let me try you with this "rigorous proof" that SR is inconsistent:

1) A spaceship flies past Earth at a speed of ##\frac 4 5 c##, say. A clock on Earth and a clock on the ship are synchronised (this can be done locally).

2) The spaceship continues for ##1## year according to the onboard clock. During this time, the Earth clock runs slow (by a factor of ##\frac 3 5##). According to the spaceship, therefore, the Earth clock reads only ##\frac 3 5## years.

3) At this point the spaceship passes another ship moving in the opposite direction at ##\frac 4 5c## relative to Earth. A clock on the inbound ship is locally synchronised with the one on the outbound ship. I.e. to read ##1## years.

4) The inbound ship continues towards Earth and flies past one year later according to the ship clock, which now reads ##2## years.

5) During the inbound journey, the Earth clock has been running slow with the same factor of ##\frac 3 5## according to the ship clock. The Earth clock reads ##\frac 6 5## years.

That could not be simpler: the Earth clock was always running slower than the relevant ship clock.

And, yet, according to the Earth clock, both ships' clocks were always running slower.

That is as clear a contradiction as one could hope to find, isn't it?

I'm interested what you think about that?
 
  • #46
PeroK said:
I don't want to change the subject too much, but let me try you with this "rigorous proof" that SR is inconsistent:

1) A spaceship flies past Earth at a speed of ##\frac 4 5 c##, say. A clock on Earth and a clock on the ship are synchronised (this can be done locally).

2) The spaceship continues for ##1## year according to the onboard clock. During this time, the Earth clock runs slow (by a factor of ##\frac 3 5##). According to the spaceship, therefore, the Earth clock reads only ##\frac 3 5## years.

3) At this point the spaceship passes another ship moving in the opposite direction at ##\frac 4 5c## relative to Earth. A clock on the inbound ship is locally synchronised with the one on the outbound ship. I.e. to read ##1## years.

4) The inbound ship continues towards Earth and flies past one year later according to the ship clock, which now reads ##2## years.

5) During the inbound journey, the Earth clock has been running slow with the same factor of ##\frac 3 5## according to the ship clock. The Earth clock reads ##\frac 6 5## years.

That could not be simpler: the Earth clock was always running slower than the relevant ship clock.

And, yet, according to the Earth clock, both ships' clocks were always running slower.

That is as clear a contradiction as one could hope to find, isn't it?

I'm interested what you think about that?
This reminds me a bit about the twins' paradox, when one twin is older on return than the one staying on Earth. As far as I know, there are ways to resolve such scenarios within the framework of SR.
So wait... are you claiming SR is contradictory?

As for the Andromeda paradox you've quoted, I have not come up with an answer yet. To me @PeterDonis is proposing a different scenario, that might not lead to the same conclusion. But the question is actually: is the initial scenario, where one draws planes of simultaneity from each event valid. If you think they are then yes, the Putnam conclusion is unavoidable. If you question the legitimacy of drawing such planes of simultaneity (and I think you are), then the conclusion does not follow.
So if A is true (A being lack of absolute simultaneity), and B is true (the legitimacy of drawing a plane of simultaneity for each particular event), then C follows (block universe). And truly I do not think B is an "illegal" operation. But again, my thought process is not ripe in this regard, I need to come back to it.
 
  • #47
alexandrinushka said:
This reminds me a bit about the twins' paradox, when one twin is older on return than the one staying on Earth. As far as I know, there are ways to resolve such scenarios within the framework of SR.
So wait... are you claiming SR is contradictory?
What I'm saying is that if that confounds you, then you are in no position to evaluate the theory of SR. You're still at the "beginner student" level, struggling to grasp the nature of Minkowski spacetime.

Unless and until you have a mastery of the fundamentals, what you think about the theory is not very important. You need to learn and master the theory first.
 
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  • #48
PeroK said:
What I'm saying is that if that confounds you, then you are in no position to evaluate the theory of SR. You're still at the "beginner student" level, struggling to grasp the nature of Minkowski spacetime.

Unless and until you have a mastery of the fundamentals, what you think about the theory is not very important. You need to learn and master the theory first.
You are write, I must master SR first before expressing myself on it.
Please note though that I have written your twin paradox has a resolution in SR and I've expressed a surprise about your claim.
 
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  • #49
alexandrinushka said:
You are write, I must master SR first before expressing myself on it.
Please note though that I have written your twin paradox has a resolution in SR and I've expressed a surprise about your claim.
That is my version of the twin paradox. Of course, I wasn't the first to think of how to get rid of acceleration (or gravity) altogether. And, it shows why differential ageing and time dilation are actually fundamentally different.

My point is that it's impossible to identify the flaw in my argument without understanding the geometry of Minkowski spacetime. The same is true of the Andromeda paradox.

I'd make one final point. In classical physics, a (head-on) collision between two particles is entirely deterministic. Whereas, ironically given the above paper, a collision in SR becomes probabilistic. It takes QM to calculate the probabilities, but there is more than one possible outcome. For example, a single particle may remain as it is (the only possibility in classical mechanics); or, decay into two particles with less total rest mass. That's why someone writing a paper about SR implying determinism is a bit sad and funny. And, perhaps, "pathetic" is too strong a word!

And, just to note in passing, that the real use of SR is not directly as a theory of spacetime, but as a theory of energy-momentum. That's where its real importance lies. And, in fact, if you study particle physics or QFT (Quantum Field Theory), you will rarely see mention of "time dilation" or "length contraction" or "simultaneity". What you will be calculating are energy-momentum four-vector relationships - which are at the heart of these advanced subjects.

That's another reason that the endless analysis of time and space by non-physicists is a bit of a side-show. Although physicists who present popular science must take a fair share of the blame. The thing that really matters is the updated theory of energy-momentum to replace Newton's laws.

PS I admit that I'm being slightly disingenuous here, in that the above paper deals with a different idea of determinism. Nevertheless, I still think it's quite amusing!
 
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  • #50
However, I don’t think that the OP is expressing any anti-SR sentiment. Rather that based on the reading they have done they think a non-aether version of SR requires the block universe which they don’t like, and a non-block-universe version of SR requires an aether which they worry is too ad hoc. I think they accept SR as a fact either way, and just worry about the philosophy.

@alexandrinushka please correct me if I have misjudged your intention here in any way.
 
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  • #51
Dale said:
However, I don’t think that the OP is expressing any anti-SR sentiment. Rather that based on the reading they have done they think a non-aether version of SR requires the block universe which they don’t like, and a non-block-universe version of SR requires an aether which they worry is too ad hoc. I think they accept SR as a fact either way, and just worry about the philosophy.

@alexandrinushka please correct me if I have misjudged your intention here in any way.
That is indeed very close to what I am thinking, you've pretty much summarised it.
 
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  • #52
PeroK said:
And, just to note in passing, that the real use of SR is not directly as a theory of spacetime, but as a theory of energy-momentum. That's where its real importance lies. And, in fact, if you study particle physics or QFT (Quantum Field Theory), you will rarely see mention of "time dilation" or "length contraction" or "simultaneity". What you will be calculating are energy-momentum four-vector relationships - which are at the heart of these advanced subjects.
I think it completely eludes me how important the energy-momentum relationship is and how much it does and has done for modern physics. If I have read a bit about SR and am trying to grasp its basics, QFT is very much a mysterious world for me and I have not yet got the chance to delve into it.
But thanks for the comment, it only sparks my interest even more.
And yeah, I have also figured out on my own quite a long time ago that the twin paradox should be solvable without acceleration. TED has made quite a nice video on it, perfect (in my opinion) for beginners. I loved it
 
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  • #53
alexandrinushka said:
That is indeed very close to what I am thinking, you've pretty much summarised it.
Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think that it matters either way. The fact that both approaches (block universe and LET) are compatible with the same math and the same experimental data indicates that there is no real difference between the two.

The distinction that we draw is a purely human conceit and that distinction is not part of nature. As a result, we are free to use either, both, or neither as we find convenient and we are free to change what we use on a whim for any reason or no reason.

I tend to use LET for thinking about Doppler and block universe for thinking about most other things. I do that because I find it convenient and helpful in organizing my thoughts, not because either one of them uniquely represents nature.
 
  • #54
PeterDonis said:
I didn't have to; I'm not the only one that's made those observations. IIRC there was at least one peer-reviewed paper linked to in the comment thread on the Insights article that made similar criticisms to mine.
What I think you do not get is how desperately I want to understand and genuinely share your point of view. I am not sure there is anyone on this forum who is more "frightened" by the block universe than myself :D
It is just that I need to build the scenario in my head, than on the paper and then put a and b together to genuinely come to the conclusion that yes, the future of any individual is open (or, at least, is not ruled out as closed judging from SR).
I would therefore be grateful if you could share the paper you are talking about. There are six pages of comments linked to your article with many links, I am not sure which one you are referring to.
Also, if you don't mind, I might at some point PM you for more details (because, well, I do not want to annoy everyone on this forum by being too "slow"). Again, my willingness to get the logic of your argument and to see what facts are contingent is genuine, I can assure you.
 
  • #55
alexandrinushka said:
I am not sure there is anyone on this forum who is more "frightened" by the block universe than myself :D
Why should you be frightened by it? An interpretation is simply a mental tool, a mnemonic device, for helping you organize your thoughts when thinking about a problem in the theory. My 5 year old sings a little song to remember telephone numbers, an interpretation is nothing more than that song.

Learn the interpretation, not as some frightening concept, but as an organizational tool. Use it where it helps and don't use it where it doesn't.
 
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  • #56
Dale said:
Why should you be frightened by it? An interpretation is simply a mental tool, a mnemonic device, for helping you organize your thoughts when thinking about a problem in the theory. My 5 year old sings a little song to remember telephone numbers, an interpretation is nothing more than that song.

Learn the interpretation, not as some frightening concept, but as an organizational tool. Use it where it helps and don't use it where it doesn't.
So... let's first put aside the issue of whether the Block Universe (BU) is a necessary conclusion of a standard interpretation of SR. I believe it is, what @PeterDonis claims resembles quite a lot with the argument against BU brought by Stein, 1968. It has been refuted by Petkov http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/2408/1/Petkov-BlockUniverse.pdf among others. Successfully, I think. Whether Petkov's response is convincing will be left for another thread and discussion. Again, I desperately want to join @PeterDonis and Stein, rather than Petkov, but I want to do it in honest conviction, and I must admit that, judging from pure logic and strong arguments, Petkov is more convincing.

Anyway... Let's assume that BU follows from SR (If SR then BU). That implies embracing SR in its standard reading; light always travels with speed c (in any inertial frame) and all inertial frames are equivalent, Einstein's synchronization method is the only genuine one and there is no such thing as a superfluous absolute frame. I believe standard SR is not only elegant and beautiful, I believe it lacks any contradiction and is fully consistent with all modern experiments and can resolve any "paradox" (yeah, twin stuff, Bell spaceship, rod in a barn, etc.) Yep, I take that. So by adopting this view, I contend, one MUST accept the universe as a 4D BU, where past, present and future all co-exist. No, it is not à la carte, as you suggest, @Dale . Your future is either there or it isn't...

I personally do not believe in God. This belief of mine shapes my fears about my death and the absence of afterlife, my attitude towards life, pleasures and values, my beliefs about a possible (or impossible) punishment for my doings, my understanding of the world and its "beauty".

When it comes to the 4D BU, to me it is an even more important issue.
Why does it frighten me so much?

There are many reasons, I'll just specify two of them.
1. In a BU all your future moments are set. Yours and everyone's. Maybe your best friend will die in a car crash a year from now after getting into a fight with you. I am not saying it will happen, I am saying that if it must happen it will. It is there, just there, a year from now. In a universe with an open future you may think "well, maybe I won't say those hurtful words to him an hour before the crash" or "maybe he won't get distracted thinking about our fight when driving" or "maybe he will need to check his car the day before and will thus take the bus on that day". But no, in a BU those are not options. In fact, whether any of my words will convince you is also predetermined. Every time you hesitate between making a 1 dollar donation at Walmart to round up your payment this is not a genuine hesitation. Your refusal (or not) to donate is a fact and your hesitation is of spurious origin and only seems to be linked to your decision in any way. And while all of these may happen anyway in an "open future" universe, they don't have to. They may or may not. In BU these facts are there and it is only your inability to get signals from the future that prevents you from seeing them.
2. One must commit to either perdurantism (worm theory) or exdurantism (stage theory) when adopting BU. A spacetime worm is a person with all his life moments glued together. If that is what we really are, why does our experience only reflect one moment (arbitrarily small, maybe infinitely small, I don't know)? Ok, let's throw away perdurantism. Then all we are is a set of stages. Many many many stages. Then how does individuality survive? There are gazillions of Danes, with nothing to glue them.
There are additional issues linked to causality or quantum objects and their temporal parts (see Pashby for the latter one).

But I hope you can understand what I profoundly dislike about the BU. And although I want to embrace SR from my entire heart, my fear of BU obliges me to look for alternatives.
 
  • #57
anuttarasammyak said:
Referring to post #3, thanks for your clarification. Historically Michelson Morley experiment expelled LET, I understand. The experiment suggests that the ether is at rest for every observer. How is it possible when two bodies with the observants have relative velocity ?
I am not sure I understand your question, sorry... I would let others, much more experienced posters, answer you.
As to the status of ether, made superfluous, by SR, I prefer to quote Einstein.
In his 1920 talk, Ether and the theory of relativity, Einstein has famously quipped:
Quote:
As to the mechanical nature of the Lorentzian ether, it may be said of it, in a somewhat playful spirit, that immobility is the only mechanical property of which it has not been deprived by H A Lorentz.
and later adds:
We may assume the existence of an ether; only we must give up ascribing a definite state of motion to it, i.e. we must by abstraction take from it the last mechanical characteristic which Lorentz had still left it.
 
  • #58
alexandrinushka said:
Anyway... Let's assume that BU follows from SR (If SR then BU). That implies embracing SR in its standard reading; light always travels with speed c (in any inertial frame) and all inertial frames are equivalent, Einstein's synchronization method is the only genuine one and there is no such thing as a superfluous absolute frame. I believe standard SR is not only elegant and beautiful, I believe it lacks any contradiction and is fully consistent with all modern experiments and can resolve any "paradox" (yeah, twin stuff, Bell spaceship, rod in a barn, etc.) Yep, I take that. So by adopting this view, I contend, one MUST accept the universe as a 4D BU, where past, present and future all co-exist. No, it is not à la carte, as you suggest, @Dale . Your future is either there or it isn't...

I
Let's not. For starters, the currently accepted theories of matter and energy consistent with SR are all variants of QFT which makes no sense with a BU interpretation (it is fundamentally non-deterministic). So, essentially all practicing physicists functioanlly reject the coupling argued by the philosophers you insist on believing.

"Einstein's synchronization method is the only genuine one" is utter nonsense as to the claim it is the only one. The universe does not care how or whether we synchronize clocks.

"there is no such thing as a superfluous absolute frame" is a statement of faith, similar to religion. There is no way to prove or disprove it, as a matter of principle.

You invent a quandary the simply does not exist. If you don't like BU, don't use it. Note that the Ellis of Hawking and Ellis "Large Scale Structure of spacetime" strenuously argues that QFT forbids the validity of BU. Most disagree with the "forbids" aspect of this, but the point is that one of greatest relativity theorists of the last 50 years totally rejects the BU interpretation.
 
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  • #59
alexandrinushka said:
I contend, one MUST accept the universe as a 4D BU, where past, present and future all co-exist.
What does "co-exist" mean? Remember that time itself is part of the 4D manifold. Saying that "Earth 2025" exists "now" (in some coordinate sense) doesn't imply determinism. Partly, at least, because whether the laws of physics are deterministic depends on QM and not solely on coordinates in the spacetime manifold.

A choice of spacetime coordinates cannot dictate the laws of QM.

IMHO, this is just a game played by clever people who should know better. This reminds me of a bit in Ulysses, by James Joyce, where Stephen "proves by algebra that Hamlet's grandson is Shakespeare's grandfather."

alexandrinushka said:
I personally do not believe in God. This belief of mine shapes my fears about my death and the absence of afterlife, my attitude towards life, pleasures and values, my beliefs about a possible (or impossible) punishment for my doings, my understanding of the world and its "beauty".

When it comes to the 4D BU, to me it is an even more important issue.
Why does it frighten me so much?

There are many reasons, I'll just specify two of them.
1. In a BU all your future moments are set. Yours and everyone's. Maybe your best friend will die in a car crash a year from now after getting into a fight with you. I am not saying it will happen, I am saying that if it must happen it will. It is there, just there, a year from now. In a universe with an open future you may think "well, maybe I won't say those hurtful words to him an hour before the crash" or "maybe he won't get distracted thinking about our fight when driving" or "maybe he will need to check his car the day before and will thus take the bus on that day". But no, in a BU those are not options. In fact, whether any of my words will convince you is also predetermined. Every time you hesitate between making a 1 dollar donation at Walmart to round up your payment this is not a genuine hesitation. Your refusal (or not) to donate is a fact and your hesitation is of spurious origin and only seems to be linked to your decision in any way. And while all of these may happen anyway in an "open future" universe, they don't have to. They may or may not. In BU these facts are there and it is only your inability to get signals from the future that prevents you from seeing them.
2. One must commit to either perdurantism (worm theory) or exdurantism (stage theory) when adopting BU. A spacetime worm is a person with all his life moments glued together. If that is what we really are, why does our experience only reflect one moment (arbitrarily small, maybe infinitely small, I don't know)? Ok, let's throw away perdurantism. Then all we are is a set of stages. Many many many stages. Then how does individuality survive? There are gazillions of Danes, with nothing to glue them.
There are additional issues linked to causality or quantum objects and their temporal parts (see Pashby for the latter one).

But I hope you can understand what I profoundly dislike about the BU. And although I want to embrace SR from my entire heart, my fear of BU obliges me to look for alternatives.
This bears no relation to physics, which is about mathematical models that can predict the results of experiments. I don't know what this is, but it's not physics.
 
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PeroK said:
What does "co-exist" mean? Remember that time itself is part of the 4D manifold. Saying that "Earth 2025" exists "now" (in some coordinate sense) doesn't imply determinism. Partly, at least, because whether the laws of physics are deterministic depends on QM and not solely on coordinates in the spacetime manifold.
A choice of spacetime coordinates cannot dictate the laws of QM.
I frankly do not know what "co-exist" means in this context. Some eternal (since another name for BU is eternalism) sort of present for all events? If you just imagine time as a 4th spatial dimension and put all moments next to each other as frames from a movie it is easier to picture. But I admit it is not fully clear what that is, not even to me. So yeah, you are right in this regard.
PeroK said:
This bears no relation to physics, which is about mathematical models that can predict the results of experiments. I don't know what this is, but it's not physics.
Fair enough, it is not Physics. I am sorry that my blabla bothered you. I felt compelled to answer to @Dale's question about what frightens me in the BU and I "spilled a lot of electronic ink" :) I don't think my discomfort with this idea is completely unfounded or unheard of. I can remove that part.
 

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