Calculating time to reduce alcohol in wine using heating method

[ArtZ]

I did another experiment this morning. I did a few things actually.

First I measured vodka at a few different dilutions with my refractometer, just as a consistency check. The data lined up with the numbers I found on the internet.

Then I opened an old 750ml bottle of red wine (14.4%). I measured it with my refractometer: 8.4% Brix. Then I sealed some in a small jar and put it in boiling water for an hour. I wanted to see if simply heating the wine would change the refractive properties. It didn't.

At the same time I took the remaining 650ml and reduced it in a double boiler for a little over an hour, reducing it to 300ml. After cooling it I split it up into five portions, reconstituting each to the correct volume. But I didn't just use water; I also included varying measured amounts of 40% vodka. That gave me a series of samples at varying ABV. I didn't know what the values were but I knew by how much they differed. When plotted they displayed essentially the same slope as the ethanol-water (or diluted vodka) samples. And that slope is roughly 2.4% ABV/%Brix.

So I could figure out what how much my wine was reduced to. Reconstituted it was 2.3% ABV. The original reduced wine, before I added water, would have been 5.0% ABV.

Since the slope roughly matched pure (or nearly pure) ethanol-water I suspect that this is not something that will only work with the wine I chose, or even red wines in general. Probably it would work for yours as well. But I don't know that. You could always duplicate what I did this morning. Or just figure it's close enough.

View attachment 323886The cooked wines sure didn't taste that nice though. The best of the bunch was the one I added the most vodka to. That one, which was just barely shy of the original strength of the 14.4% wine, had a sweetness the others lacked.

If you sealed some of the wine in a small jar and put it in boiling water for an hour, I wouldn't expect that it would change the refractive properties. After all, it was a closed system. All evaporated components would be condensed and returned to the wine, right? And at boiling temperature, I wouldn't expect anything flavorful.

Yah, I want to try out what you did- really awesome, thanks!

Ebay says I'll get my refractometer on Weds, BTW, Amazon credited my account and did not request a return of the defective refractometer which is surprising considering how much it cost. I have been in touch with the manufacturer- they requested the SN of the defective unit, which I provided. No word back from them yet.

 

[JT Smith]

If you sealed some of the wine in a small jar and put it in boiling water for an hour, I wouldn't expect that it would change the refractive properties. After all, it was a closed system. All evaporated components would be condensed and returned to the wine, right? And at boiling temperature, I wouldn't expect anything flavorful.

I wasn't sure. I thought that it was possible that there were chemical changes in cooked wine that might matter. I figured I had to eliminate that variable.

As for the taste, what's the difference between 80°C and 100°C? Both of those are hot enough to drive off aromatics and probably induce other changes in the wine. The wine I reduced in a double boiler stayed within the range 65-85°C. It didn't taste very good either. Flat, dull, and sour. Undrinkable as a beverage.

Maybe in the context of cooking it doesn't matter. I don't know. I was taught to never cook with wine I wouldn't be happy to drink. But it probably depends. Wine added to a dish that simmers for an hour -- what's the difference? But if you're adding a very aromatic wine in the last seconds of a stir-fry then heating it for tens of minutes prior might ruin it.

 

[ArtZ]

I wasn't sure. I thought that it was possible that there were chemical changes in cooked wine that might matter. I figured I had to eliminate that variable.

As for the taste, what's the difference between 80°C and 100°C? Both of those are hot enough to drive off aromatics and probably induce other changes in the wine. The wine I reduced in a double boiler stayed within the range 65-85°C. It didn't taste very good either. Flat, dull, and sour. Undrinkable as a beverage.

Maybe in the context of cooking it doesn't matter. I don't know. I was taught to never cook with wine I wouldn't be happy to drink. But it probably depends. Wine added to a dish that simmers for an hour -- what's the difference? But if you're adding a very aromatic wine in the last seconds of a stir-fry then heating it for tens of minutes prior might ruin it.

I think that there's a lot to be said for the loss of volatile aromatics whether heat induced or just from evaporation. I know that leaving an unfinished glass of wine out overnight yields a sour, flat undesirable drink. And then, when constituent compounds are denatured with heat, it can't be good. Different recipes call for the addition of wine at different times. Several recipes I make call for the addition of the wine to the meat marinade which typically consists of soy sauce, wine, the meat, aromatics like ginger and garlic, cornstarch, and vegetable oil. In this scenario, the high ABV wine is concentrated in a small volume. Marinating times of up to an hour allow the alcohol 'flavor' to permeate the meat. These types of recipes are where the alcohol 'flavor' becomes obvious.

 

[JT Smith]

I think wine changes primarily due to oxidation not just loss of aromatics. But for sure both aromatic compounds and ethanol will evaporate preferentially even at room temperature. You could remove ethanol with a low temperature distillation, aided by a vacuum pump. But you'd still lose the aromatics. One strategy for dealing with that is to condense and collect the initial distillate. It will be enriched in alcohol and also the aromatic compounds. You could keep that separate and then add it back to the mixture after removing most of the alcohol. I know this approach is used for making freeze-dried coffee, at least the better versions of it. It's probably tricky figuring out the right fraction to keep.

All the different uses for wine in food make it more complicated both in how well it holds up as well as how it is perceived.

I wonder: How did you come up with the number 4% ABV for wine that would be okay for your wife? Isn't the total amount of alcohol consumed the issue? It seems like that would vary a lot depending on the recipe and serving size.

 

[ArtZ]

I think wine changes primarily due to oxidation not just loss of aromatics. But for sure both aromatic compounds and ethanol will evaporate preferentially even at room temperature. You could remove ethanol with a low temperature distillation, aided by a vacuum pump. But you'd still lose the aromatics. One strategy for dealing with that is to condense and collect the initial distillate. It will be enriched in alcohol and also the aromatic compounds. You could keep that separate and then add it back to the mixture after removing most of the alcohol. I know this approach is used for making freeze-dried coffee, at least the better versions of it. It's probably tricky figuring out the right fraction to keep.

All the different uses for wine in food make it more complicated both in how well it holds up as well as how it is perceived.

I wonder: How did you come up with the number 4% ABV for wine that would be okay for your wife? Isn't the total amount of alcohol consumed the issue? It seems like that would vary a lot depending on the recipe and serving size.

This alcohol 'witch hunt' is somewhat convoluted and perverted. I started cooking when I was 7 years old. My heroes then were Julia Child and Joyce Chen. Both chefs used wines in their cooking; quite generously sometimes. As I have been cooking continuously over all these years, I never thought twice about alcohol (wine or spirits) to a cooked dish.

My second wife was Japanese and taught me a lot about Japanese cooking which invariably contains alcohol in some form such as Sake or Mirin, etc.

So, fast forward 10 years and a new wife. Though an American born Chinese lady, whose family was running a Chinese restaurant, (22 years) she is a total non-drinker - averse to alcohol in any form. When it became clear that I was the chef at home, I unrolled my repertoire of world-wide of food creations.

Needless to say, she was able to detect almost any residual alcohol in my dishes. The bottom line was that she would not eat the food.

Aah, so where did the 4% ABV come from? Part SWAG and some experience with some low ABV wines, i.e., Sake and Sherry. With those low ABV wines, she did not complain of the 'alcohol taste' as she calls it.

It's interesting though that she never complains of the 'alcohol taste' when we get Chinese restaurant food. Go figure. :-)

 

[JT Smith]

Thanks for the story. After living on Kraft Mac & Cheese, hot dogs, and canned baked beans through college I developed an interest in cooking and nutrition. I had not heard of Joyce Chen before but I used to watch Julia, Jeff Smith, Martin Yan, Jacques Pépin, Justin Williams, and a couple of others. There was a stream of cooking shows on PBS on Saturday mornings and I used to check out cooking books from the library to study. I'm not a good cook by nature but at least I know something about it now. My wife happily leaves the job to me, pretending that she is incompetent.

But one thing you wrote doesn't make sense to me. Both Sake and Sherry are normally stronger than 15% alcohol. I've never come across low alcohol versions of them. That's not to say they don't exist.

 

[ArtZ]

Thanks for the story. After living on Kraft Mac & Cheese, hot dogs, and canned baked beans through college I developed an interest in cooking and nutrition. I had not heard of Joyce Chen before but I used to watch Julia, Jeff Smith, Martin Yan, Jacques Pépin, Justin Williams, and a couple of others. There was a stream of cooking shows on PBS on Saturday mornings and I used to check out cooking books from the library to study. I'm not a good cook by nature but at least I know something about it now. My wife happily leaves the job to me, pretending that she is incompetent.

But one thing you wrote doesn't make sense to me. Both Sake and Sherry are normally stronger than 15% alcohol. I've never come across low alcohol versions of them. That's not to say they don't exist.

Glad you enjoyed the story. :-) When I tell people that I have over 200 cookbooks in my library, yes, friends are astounded. Bargain table books was where many came from. Most of these are stuffed with mini post-it notes that denote recipes I plan to make, someday. :-) I've got to say that I don't recall in what era of my cooking tenure that low alcohol wine became important. Low alcohol wine products availabilty wax and wane depending on depending on demand. Right now, low alcohol wine and beer products are becoming more prevalent. You are right about the Sake and Sherry- don't know what era the low-alcohol versions were available commonly.

Serendipitously, I talked to a long time friend who is an avid camper (former Eagle Scout) and outdoorsman. Somehow we latched onto a conversation about water purification while camping. He said that his first choice is always to boil unknown water if possible. His next choice are portable RO systems using a .01 micron filter. I told him what I was trying to do with the cooking wine and he explained:

In the reverse osmosis process, the permeate is the part that passes through (permeates) the filter, and the retentate is the part retained by the filter. For purifying camping water, the permeate is what you drink, discarding the retenate which has the bad cooties.

In your case, if you want to retain the wine flavor and reduce the alcohol, do the following: put your wine through the RO filter, retaining the retentate that did not pass through the filter. If you want alcohol free wine, simply re-hydrate the retentate and you'll have your alcohol-free wine. If you want some alcohol, you can distill the permeate to the alcohol level you desire and add it back to the retentate obtained in the RO filtration.

RO systems are avalable for camping- lots of them. I just don't know how they handle the retentate.

 

[JT Smith]

Yes, I am aware of the use of RO for dealcoholization. I didn't mention it because I thought it even less likely a DIY project than vacuum distillation, which is also probably not going to happen in your kitchen. Maybe I'm wrong but I got the impression from what little I read that it requires very high pressure to achieve adequate separation. I'm not sure how you do that with a gravity or hand pump powered camping water filter.

Here's a paper that discusses the many different ways that low alcohol wine is produced:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8535880/pdf/foods-10-02498.pdf

 

[ArtZ]

Thanks for the paper; it was very informative! Many ways to skin the proverbial cat. What was conspicuously absent though was a heat only methodology for alcohol reduction. The closest, which you have mentioned in prior posts, is vacuum distillation. The looming question for me is what to move forward with? Tomorrow, I'll receive my replacement refractometer. Should I continue with the experiments I planned? I don't know.

As a career-long researcher, I have known when to call it a day when contradictory and corroborated evidence derails the current direction of pursuit. I guess I would ask now: what is the simplest way to get to my endpoint?

 

[ArtZ]

Glad you enjoyed the story. :-) When I tell people that I have over 200 cookbooks in my library, yes, friends are astounded. Bargain table books was where many came from. Most of these are stuffed with mini post-it notes that denote recipes I plan to make, someday. :-) I've got to say that I don't recall in what era of my cooking tenure that low alcohol wine became important. Low alcohol wine products availabilty wax and wane depending on depending on demand. Right now, low alcohol wine and beer products are becoming more prevalent. You are right about the Sake and Sherry- don't know what era the low-alcohol versions were available commonly.

Serendipitously, I talked to a long time friend who is an avid camper (former Eagle Scout) and outdoorsman. Somehow we latched onto a conversation about water purification while camping. He said that his first choice is always to boil unknown water if possible. His next choice are portable RO systems using a .01 micron filter. I told him what I was trying to do with the cooking wine and he explained:

In the reverse osmosis process, the permeate is the part that passes through (permeates) the filter, and the retentate is the part retained by the filter. For purifying camping water, the permeate is what you drink, discarding the retenate which has the bad cooties.

In your case, if you want to retain the wine flavor and reduce the alcohol, do the following: put your wine through the RO filter, retaining the retentate that did not pass through the filter. If you want alcohol free wine, simply re-hydrate the retentate and you'll have your alcohol-free wine. If you want some alcohol, you can distill the permeate to the alcohol level you desire and add it back to the retentate obtained in the RO filtration.

RO systems are avalable for camping- lots of them. I just don't know how they handle the retentate.

Yeah, that's my question too. what do these systems do with the retentate. You are right, it's the rentent that I want. But, making this more complicated, there may be volatile aromatics in the permeate. that should be fractionally distilled off. How to determine this?

 

[JT Smith]

I guess I would ask now: what is the simplest way to get to my endpoint?

Move on to wife #4?

 

[PAllen]

Why don't you just buy some non-alcoholic wine? It's readily available, and done by people with better equipment than you are likely to have.

Shaoxzing wine has a very distinctive flavor profile, so you would not want to substitute some generic non-alcoholic wine.

 

[PAllen]

Aah, so where did the 4% ABV come from? Part SWAG and some experience with some low ABV wines, i.e., Sake and Sherry. With those low ABV wines, she did not complain of the 'alcohol taste' as she calls it.

How are Sake and Sherry low ABV?? The ones I know are in the 15-20% ABV range.

 

[ArtZ]

Move on to wife #4?

You know, I just cracked up when I saw your last response! LOL! No, she's a keeper. I am trying to address a larger audience. Maybe I don't need to, I don't know. The separating of food for consumption has grown to be, in my opinion, ridiculous. At the research lab I worked at before I retired, there were separate accommodations made for vegetarian, non- vegetarian, vegan, halal, kosher, food cooked with alcohol, and many more! This included separate refrigerators, microwaves, storage cabinets, etc. Also, washable utensils (dishwasher washed) were required to be separated by use category before going into the dishwasher. Only like with like. (vegetarian, vegan, etc.) We ran dishwasher loads with 1 fork, a plate, and 5 spoons to accommodate this. Any alcohol touched glassware or utensils were washed separately in the dishwasher, alone.
So, I don't think I'm alone with pointing out these outrageous food fetishes. These were all PhDs! (from around the world) I whizzed past all this by eating all my lunches out!

How are Sake and Sherry low ABV?? The ones I know are in the 15-20% ABV range.

Oh, you are totally right these are in the 15-20% ABV range. Over the years, I was able to obtain low ABV versions of these wines in the 3.5 -5 % range. Cooking with these at the time, no one reported the 'alcohol taste.'

 

[JT Smith]

I think it's a tough problem you're considering.

Last year I decided I'd try some dealcoholized beers. The number of them has exploded and I was able to buy 18 different types without much trouble. Many of them were horrible and went down the sink quickly. Some were okay but odd in character. And a few were actually pretty good. I liked them as refreshing beverages but there was no mistaking them with actual beer. No way!

There are different ways these beers are made. I think many have the alcohol removed via RO. One brewer claims theirs are not dealcoholized. Instead the beer ferments without producing very much ethanol. It is a proprietary process but I imagine it's a combination of mash profile and yeast selection.

You could brew your own Shaoxing-style wine. From what I just read it sounds very similar to sake production and doesn't look hard to do. It would take time and it's probably not trivial to do well. But it would open the door for experimenting with different yeast strains. Another trick is to arrest the fermentation to limit the alcohol. You end up with a sweeter wine that way. But in a cooked dish a little extra sweetener might be acceptable.I'm going to have to go and buy some Shaoxing wine. I wonder if it's hard to find? I went looking for brewed Mirin (yet another rice wine) last year and discovered that it is either super hard to find or simply not available in the San Francisco Bay Area. Lots of inexpensive fake Mirin though.

 

[ArtZ]

I think it's a tough problem you're considering.

Last year I decided I'd try some dealcoholized beers. The number of them has exploded and I was able to buy 18 different types without much trouble. Many of them were horrible and went down the sink quickly. Some were okay but odd in character. And a few were actually pretty good. I liked them as refreshing beverages but there was no mistaking them with actual beer. No way!

There are different ways these beers are made. I think many have the alcohol removed via RO. One brewer claims theirs are not dealcoholized. Instead the beer ferments without producing very much ethanol. It is a proprietary process but I imagine it's a combination of mash profile and yeast selection.

You could brew your own Shaoxing-style wine. From what I just read it sounds very similar to sake production and doesn't look hard to do. It would take time and it's probably not trivial to do well. But it would open the door for experimenting with different yeast strains. Another trick is to arrest the fermentation to limit the alcohol. You end up with a sweeter wine that way. But in a cooked dish a little extra sweetener might be acceptable.I'm going to have to go and buy some Shaoxing wine. I wonder if it's hard to find? I went looking for brewed Mirin (yet another rice wine) last year and discovered that it is either super hard to find or simply not available in the San Francisco Bay Area. Lots of inexpensive fake Mirin though.

They've been pushing the Heinekin 0.0 beer on TV. I wonder if you tried that one. Many papers and articles discuss controlling the fermentation process to dial in the alcohol level. Also though, factors like temperature, days with sun, rain, etc. affect the final product's alcohol level.

As far as availability, Shaoxing wine is readily available in Asian markets. I also live in the San Francisco Bay Area and in the South Bay, we have lots of them. I bought my Shaoxing wine at Ranch 99 Market for about $5.00. Mirin and Sake are available at Safeway these days. My area also has several Japanese and Korean markets making those products easy to find.

Today my replacement refractometer should arrive and I'll start with the dilution only measurements using the Shaoxing wine - no cooking yet.

 

[JT Smith]

I did not try that one for the simple reason that I don't like regular Heinekin. It's a marketing thing to call it 0.0. They stopped at the appropriate decimal point as the content is 0.03%. I read that there is a silly lawsuit about this.

The Mirin I found is called Aji Mirin. It's basically just a mixture of grain alcohol, sugar, and some longer chain carbohydrates. It's not brewed, it's mixed. Hon Mirin is the traditional form. It's brewed from rice, fungus, and yeast, similar to sake and Shaoxing wine. I figure it's probably a lot tastier than the cheaper stuff but I couldn't find any to try. I did find some bottles labeled "Hon" but the ingredients made it clear it was not. Oh well, I guess I'll have to visit Japan.

I'm off to one of the local Asian markets today for other reasons so I'll see what they have in the way of Shaoxing wine.

 

[ArtZ]

They've been pushing the Heinekin 0.0 beer on TV. I wonder if you tried that one. Many papers and articles discuss controlling the fermentation process to dial in the alcohol level. Also though, factors like temperature, days with sun, rain, etc. affect the final product's alcohol level.

As far as availability, Shaoxing wine is readily available in Asian markets. I also live in the San Francisco Bay Area and in the South Bay, we have lots of them. I bought my Shaoxing wine at Ranch 99 Market for about $5.00. Mirin and Sake are available at Safeway these days. My area also has several Japanese and Korean markets making those products easy to find.

Today my replacement refractometer should arrive and I'll start with the dilution only measurements using the Shaoxing wine - no cooking yet.

BTW, I should have mentioned that Shaoxing comes two ways- cooking only with added salt and drinking or cooking style with no added salt. The Shaoxing with salt is a lower grade and runs $4-6 a bottle. Shaoxing for drinking $8 -20 a pop.

Aji Mirin is cheap and very commonly available and is what most Japanese home cooks use. Hon Mirin is better but you'll only find it at a Japanese market. The word 'Hon' signifies a high grade. If a Japanese sushi chef tells you his maguru is Hon maguru, you are getting the good stuff, but you'll pay $$$.

 

[JT Smith]

I went to Japanese markets in Berkeley, San Mateo, and Japantown in San Francisco, as well as a Korean market and a couple generic Asian places. No dice! I did find it online for $42 but decided that was too much for something I might not even like.

Thanks for the heads up about the salted version of Shaoxing. They do that with other wines too and I avoid them. Mediocre wine plus a denaturant isn't a tasty combo even for cooking.

 

[PAllen]

I did not try that one for the simple reason that I don't like regular Heinekin. It's a marketing thing to call it 0.0. They stopped at the appropriate decimal point as the content is 0.03%. I read that there is a silly lawsuit about this.

The Mirin I found is called Aji Mirin. It's basically just a mixture of grain alcohol, sugar, and some longer chain carbohydrates. It's not brewed, it's mixed. Hon Mirin is the traditional form. It's brewed from rice, fungus, and yeast, similar to sake and Shaoxing wine. I figure it's probably a lot tastier than the cheaper stuff but I couldn't find any to try. I did find some bottles labeled "Hon" but the ingredients made it clear it was not. Oh well, I guess I'll have to visit Japan.

I'm off to one of the local Asian markets today for other reasons so I'll see what they have in the way of Shaoxing wine.

Eden Mirin is readily available in Whole Foods. It is product of Japan, with ingredients water, rice, sea salt, Koji (aspergillus) and nothing else. It is traditionally brewed. Unfortunately, it does have salt.

 

[ArtZ]

I went to Japanese markets in Berkeley, San Mateo, and Japantown in San Francisco, as well as a Korean market and a couple generic Asian places. No dice! I did find it online for $42 but decided that was too much for something I might not even like.

Thanks for the heads up about the salted version of Shaoxing. They do that with other wines too and I avoid them. Mediocre wine plus a denaturant isn't a tasty combo even for cooking.

Wow, sounds like you made the whirlwind tour today! And returned empty handed? What specifically couldn't you find? The potable Shaoxing?

I did receive the replacement refractometer - just tried it. in cal mode read 0.0 with the supplied distilled water. With the Shaoxing it read 4.0 on the PA scale. Adding a drop of water to the Shaoxing sample, reading was 1.4. Doesn't look promising. :-(

 

[JT Smith]

Eden Mirin is readily available in Whole Foods. It is product of Japan, with ingredients water, rice, sea salt, Koji (aspergillus) and nothing else. It is traditionally brewed. Unfortunately, it does have salt.

Thanks for that. Whole Foods, for better or worse, is my closest supermarket so I go there often. I'm pretty sure I looked at what they had. And from what I've read, right or wrong, Hon Mirin should be at 14% alcohol and contain no salt. So even though it's fermented I would have rejected the Eden product based on that. Maybe I should give it another look since it's what's available.

 

[JT Smith]

Wow, sounds like you made the whirlwind tour today! And returned empty handed? What specifically couldn't you find? The potable Shaoxing?

I did receive the replacement refractometer - just tried it. in cal mode read 0.0 with the supplied distilled water. With the Shaoxing it read 4.0 on the PA scale. Adding a drop of water to the Shaoxing sample, reading was 1.4. Doesn't look promising. :-(

Last year I searched for a couple of months, looking for true Mirin. Like a mirage....I just got back from buying a bottle of Shaoxing wine. One of our local Asian markets was boarded up! It was always kind of a sleazy place, VERY fishy stinky, horrible music playing, dead-eyed drone cashiers. But it had been like that forever. I figured it would be always be. Nope. Gone.

So I went to the nearest alternative, a better place actually. I chose the most expensive bottle which was just $8. Tasting it, looking at it, it's interesting. Very deep yellow, almost brown. A little sweet but also another set of flavors that I know but don't have enough words to describe. Savory, unami, but more than just that. I wish my tongue and taste buds could talk. They know. I can see why it would be a valuable addition to food. I'm most certainly going to be adding it to my next stir-fry.

FWIW this is what I got. Is it a good one?

SHAO XING CHIA FAN CHIEW
PAGODA BRAND
ALC. 17% BY VOL
82% RICE, 18% WHEAT, WINE WITH CARAMEL COLOR ADDED
PRODUCED AND BOTTLED IN CHINA

 

[PAllen]

Thanks for that. Whole Foods, for better or worse, is my closest supermarket so I go there often. I'm pretty sure I looked at what they had. And from what I've read, right or wrong, Hon Mirin should be at 14% alcohol and contain no salt. So even though it's fermented I would have rejected the Eden product based on that. Maybe I should give it another look since it's what's available.

Obviously, no salt and meant for possible drinking would be better (the Eden has only 10% alcohol). But it sure seems a lot better than what you were describing. I’ve found it quite nice in cooking, but I am no expert.

 

[JT Smith]

Obviously, no salt and meant for possible drinking would be better (the Eden has only 10% alcohol). But it sure seems a lot better than what you were describing. I’ve found it quite nice in cooking, but I am no expert.

I'll have to give it a try. The cheap-ass Mirin I bought that's just a mixture of grain alcohol and sugar tastes pretty bad.

 

[ArtZ]

I'm not exactly sure what you ended up with today. This is my bottle of Shaoxing:

Nearly all the bottles of the cooking variety have red and gold labels. Smells good but I wouldn't drink it.

 

[JT Smith]

Yours says "cooking wine". Does that mean it has salt added?

I wonder what's up with your refractometer? It's 5X the price I paid, you'd think it would work better. I'm not sure what you were hoping to achieve by measuring dilutions though. Wouldn't you expect a straight line heading toward zero? That's what I imagined would happen.

I tried it with the wine I bought and, yes, that's exactly what I got:

By the way, the Washington Post recently published a timely article on the subject of dealcoholized wines. Maybe it won't be that much longer before you can just go and buy a reduced alcohol Shaoxing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/03/25/nonalcoholic-wine/

 

[ArtZ]

Yours says "cooking wine". Does that mean it has salt added?

I wonder what's up with your refractometer? It's 5X the price I paid, you'd think it would work better. I'm not sure what you were hoping to achieve by measuring dilutions though. Wouldn't you expect a straight line heading toward zero? That's what I imagined would happen.

I tried it with the wine I bought and, yes, that's exactly what I got:

View attachment 324048By the way, the Washington Post recently published a timely article on the subject of dealcoholized wines. Maybe it won't be that much longer before you can just go and buy a reduced alcohol Shaoxing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/03/25/nonalcoholic-wine/

Yes, my Shaoxing has 1.5% salt added; not potable. Geez, your chart is exactly what I expect though you are plotting Brix against wine fraction not PA against wine fraction. I will need to experiment more with my refractometer; didn't try it yesterday on the Brix scale.

Thanks for the WP article. Sounds like wine is the toughest non-alcoholic nut to crack. I received a coupon yesterday from Total Wine. I may take a jaunt over and see what they have in the way of low alcohol and non-alcoholic wines and get a bottle.

 

[JT Smith]

I will need to experiment more with my refractometer; didn't try it yesterday on the Brix scale.

I don't know why you are using PA. You don't know what it means. There are numerous models for estimating the alcohol produced from grape juice with a given sugar content. There are simple models that are just a conversion factor, like PA = 0.55 * Brix. Others try to take into account that there will be residual sugar and other unfermentables that affect the refractometer (or hydrometer) measurement. So then you get something like PA = 0.55 * Brix - 3, or whatever. Who knows what your refractometer is doing. And, more to the point, why do you care when you're not trying to estimate the potential alcohol of a sugar solution?

 

[ArtZ]

OK, good point. Didn't have time to look at this today. The day today was devoted to another chemical problem, reducing the pungency of chopped fresh garlic in sauces for my wife's business. I mention this only in passing since I don't alert and get barked at by the Forum moderation police.

You are right, there's no way of knowing what the Brix to PA calculation the refractometer is using. I wonder if repeating your Brix against dilution advances my cause? I'm still tempted to drag the sous vide bath back out and perform a reduction in volume at a very controlled temperature measuring the Brix at controlled time points. Maybe reconstitute back to full volume at each Brix measurement point? Also, can taste the reconstituted wine at each test time compared to the full ABV wine.