Car battery -- charging questions

AI Thread Summary
A car's battery charges while the engine runs, powered by the alternator, which produces DC energy to support electrical systems like lights and radios. The alternator typically outputs around 14 volts and can sustain about 50 amps, though modern vehicles may have alternators rated between 80 to 180 amps depending on electrical demands. External charging becomes necessary if the battery fails to start the engine or if it cannot meet the electrical load when the engine is idling. The voltage regulator prevents overcharging, maintaining a safe voltage level for the battery. Understanding these components is crucial for maintaining a vehicle's electrical system effectively.
Akmalidin
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Hello,

I am a Telecommunications student who does not have a lot clue about cars.Does a car charges up its battery when it moves? What power supply is used for lighting in car, the battery? So if car charges the battery when it moves, why sometimes external/additional charging of battery is vital ?
 
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The engine in the car spins the alternator. The alternator produces DC energy to charge the battery, and to power lights, radios and so on.

If for some reason the battery can't start the engine, then external energy must be supplied.
 
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I appreciate your answer. How many alternators are in the car? 4? or 2?
 
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Akmalidin said:
I appreciate your answer. How many alternators are in the car? 4? or 2?

Usually one. Do you have a car nearby? You can open the hood, see the engine and the alternator.
 
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Unfortunately, I don't have a car nearby.But how much power does it output so a battery charges?What about its speed ?
 
A typical alternator can make 50 amps at 14 volts. That's a lot.

A voltage regulator controls the alternator so the speed doesn't matter much.

Here is a picture of a car engine. The alternator is the part spun by the rubber belt.

FQ8FSGTFOVXOSBT.MEDIUM.jpg
 
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Akmalidin said:
So if car charges the battery when it moves, why sometimes external/additional charging of battery is vital ?

the car doesn't need to be moving ... the engine only has to be running

Akmalidin said:
I don't have a car nearby. But how much power does it output so a battery charges? What about its speed ?

around 14V at a few amps. The alternator rotor spinning speed is around that of the engine revs so as the engine revs faster so does the alternator

have a look at this pic that I put some text on ...

upload_2016-6-10_7-49-31.png


the V-belt connects the alternator to the engine crankshaft, so that when the crankshaft turns, it then turns the rotor of the alternator

Dave
 
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Thank you so much guys !
 
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The battery has only one purpose: Powering the engine starter.

Once the engine is running by itself, the alternator will power the entire electrical system of the car. In addition, it will recharge the battery for the next engine start.

The size of the alternator depends on the electrical system. If the electrical system is only the ignition system, the alternator will be quite small. If you also have a lighting system, a sound system, power windows, etc., then you need a proportionally more powerful alternator.
 
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  • #10
jack action said:
The battery has only one purpose: Powering the engine starter.

Once the engine is running by itself, the alternator will power the entire electrical system of the car. In addition, it will recharge the battery for the next engine start.

I would have to disagree with that

I find my car starts to fail quite rapidly if the battery fails during operation ... the battery has the current capabilities that the alternator/generator doesn't haveDave
 
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  • #11
anorlunda said:
A typical alternator can make 50 amps at 14 volts. That's a lot.

didn't realize it was capable of 50A, can that be sustained or only in bursts ?
 
  • #12
davenn said:
didn't realize it was capable of 50A, can that be sustained or only in bursts ?

50 is sustainable, but it is not often needed in a car.

RVs and boats often install 100 amp alternators because they have big battery banks to charge.
 
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  • #13
I believe Ford has a 130 amp alternator in some of their vehicles.
 
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  • #14
davenn said:
didn't realize it was capable of 50A, can that be sustained or only in bursts ?
anorlunda said:
50 is sustainable, but it is not often needed in a car.

RVs and boats often install 100 amp alternators because they have big battery banks to charge.
50 A was the standard 30-40 years ago. Today, a small car like a Toyota Yaris have an 80 A alternator. A typical car will have one producing 100-130 A. A fully loaded luxury car/SUV can have a 150-180 A alternator.

Again, it's not as much of a question about the battery size, but the demand of the electrical system.
davenn said:
I find my car starts to fail quite rapidly if the battery fails during operation ... the battery has the current capabilities that the alternator/generator doesn't have
The battery may be needed if the engine is idling and you flip on every switch on your dash, but that is certainly not a normal situation. I'm not even sure it is still a problem in today's car.

The largest (battery) wire in a typical car is a 2-gauge which can withstand a current of 130 A. So the battery will not be able to give more current than the alternator can provide without destroying the wires. You need a https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CQ23MK/?tag=pfamazon01-20 for a 170 A current, which is the largest I found in a quick search.
 
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  • #15
jack action said:
The battery has only one purpose: Powering the engine starter.

It will also run all of the electrical equipment when the engine is not running. In many (most? all?) cars you will notice that the lights aren't quite as bright and the motors are a bit slower when the engine is stopped. This is because the alternator runs at the battery charge voltage which is a bit higher than the typical loaded voltage of the battery itself.

Having a good battery is crucial as often the regulator needs the battery as part of its operation. If the battery is not present or severely worn the regulator can operate at a voltage that may damage the electrical system. I would suspect as you look at newer models this failure mode will be less severe or absent due to improved design.

BoB
 
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  • #16
jack action said:
50 A was the standard 30-40 years ago. Today, a small car like a Toyota Yaris have an 80 A alternator. A typical car will have one producing 100-130 A. A fully loaded luxury car/SUV can have a 150-180 A alternator.
I drive a Kia Optima midsize sedan. It has electric power steering. Googled -- it has a 95A alternator.

I'd be curious to know what it draws in normal operation. At 14V that would be 1.8HP. I calculated once that at 30mpg and 60 mph, the engine generates about 17hp, so the electrical load would be about 10%.
 
  • #17
They've complicated things immeasurably in new cars
With electrical load getting bigger and engines getting smaller
Mr EngineControlUnit directs Mr Voltage Regulator granting permission for Mr Alternator to produce high current if and only if Mr Engine has reserve torque available .
There are dozens of microcomputers chatting over something called "CANBUS" . That's how hackers take remote control of electronic throttle, steering and brakes through the entertainment system.

I am getting too old to put up with such design shenanigans so bought myself a '68 Ford truck .. It'll outlast me. And appreciate not depreciate.http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygre...-with-me-behind-the-wheel-video/#564897ac5bf2
 
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  • #18
russ_watters said:
I drive a Kia Optima midsize sedan. It has electric power steering. Googled -- it has a 95A alternator.

I'd be curious to know what it draws in normal operation. At 14V that would be 1.8HP. I calculated once that at 30mpg and 60 mph, the engine generates about 17hp, so the electrical load would be about 10%.
Look at the fuse boxes to see the maximum load for a particular circuit.
That will give some initial idea, but what failsafe they have before a fuse blows would have to be factored in.
Adding up all the fuse rating would ( should ) be more than 95A.
 
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  • #19
russ_watters said:
I calculated once that at 30mpg and 60 mph, the engine generates about 17hp, so the electrical load would be about 10%.

sounds a bit low ? considering ...

As with most mid-size four-door sedans on the market, the 2014 Kia Optima is offered in several different performance flavors--all including a four-cylinder engine under the hood. A 200-horsepower, 2.4-liter four-cylinder engine with direct injection is standard on all but the SX model.

haven't found a HP rating at a given speed and RPM which would be the quantifying factorsDave

found a maximum power out
Introduction
The Optima 2.4 is a front wheel drive saloon (sedan) motor car with a front positioned engine, from Kia.
Power is supplied by a double overhead camshaft, 2.4 litre naturally aspirated 4 cylinder motor, with 4 valves per cylinder that produces power and torque figures of 177.5 bhp (180 PS/132 kW) at 6000 rpm and 231 N·m (170 lb·ft/23.6 kgm) at 4000 rpm respectively.

grrrr why quote totally different units for the different RPM ... how confusing !

this one for the 1.6L

Horsepower: 178 @ 5500 RPM@russ_watters would be interesting to know what RPM it was doing at your 60mph ?
 
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  • #20
davenn said:
found a maximum power outgrrrr why quote totally different units for the different RPM ... how confusing !
Max. HP and max. torque output for a given engine usually occur at two different RPMs, with max.torque occurring at the lower RPM.

All of the power figures are consistent, as are all of the torque figures given for this engine.

Knowing the relationship between torque, RPM, and HP, you should be able to calculate the HP output of the engine when the max. torque reading occurs.
 
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  • #21
What if RMP is low ? Does alternator also produce lower amps? And what happens if we charge a battery higher than 14v? Why charging should be only max 14v?
 
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  • #22
Akmalidin said:
And what happens if we charge a battery higher than 14v? Why charging should be only max 14v?

because the battery will be damaged
 
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  • #23
Akmalidin said:
What if RMP is low? Does alternator also produce lower amps? And what happens if we charge a battery higher than 14V ?
There's a voltage regulator in the charging circuit which prevents the battery from being overcharged by the alternator. When the battery is fully charged, the charging circuit opens, and any current put out by the alternator is kept from charging the battery. When the battery voltage drops below the set point, the regulator closes the charging circuit, and current flows from the alternator to the battery again.
 
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  • #24
jack action said:
50 A was the standard 30-40 years ago

Man oh man, I am so dated. :woot:
 
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  • #25
anorlunda said:
Man oh man, I am so dated. :woot:
I've owned 2 cars:
1. A 1984 Chevy Camaro Z-28 which had a 94-Amp HD alternator
2. A 1997 Ford T-bird V-8 which had a 130-Amp alternator.

The Chevy still used multiple belts for the engine accessories (4 in this particular model), while the Ford used a single serpentine belt to drive everything.
 
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  • #26
anorlunda said:
Man oh man, I am so dated. :woot:

start adding up the continuous loads., these are just my estimates

A/C clutch maybe six amps
A/C fan ten amps
Fuel pump three
fuel injectors ?? maybe two
head/tail /instrument lights ten
luxury stereo six when real loud
radiator fans fifteen
alternator field four
solenoid valves for ABS, fuel tank vent, EGR, maybe three amps (seems i learn of another one every time the "Check Engine " light comes on...)
heated O2 sensors maybe three ?

now consider intermittent ones that might stay on for several minutes so i'll count them,
rear window defroster six
seat "butt warmers" ten
auto levelling system air or hydraulic pump fifteenelectric locks, windows and seats are so brief i'll not count them.i'm up to ninety three amps
i'd want a 150 amp alternator to leave me 57 for charging the battery
 
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  • #27
SteamKing said:
1. A 1984 Chevy Camaro Z-28 which had a 94-Amp HD alternator
2. A 1997 Ford T-bird V-8 which had a 130-Amp alternator.

Glad to hear there's somebody else who appreciates that "Detroit Iron" .

courtesy http://forums.aaca.org/uploads/monthly_09_2009/post-60218-143138111875.jpg
upload_2016-6-10_7-21-36.png


"Hot Rod Lincoln " (count the sparkplugs)
that'd be a 30 amp generator (black cylinder just in front of the carburetors )
 
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  • #28
rbelli1 said:
If the battery is not present or severely worn the regulator can operate at a voltage that may damage the electrical system.
The regulator output voltage will not depend on the battery. If the output voltage is too high, it is because the regulator is not working properly.
jim hardy said:
I am getting too old to put up with such design shenanigans so bought myself a '68 Ford truck
I, myself, drive a '69 El Camino.

For the people interested in that stuff, it is fascinating to study those electrical systems.

Read BRIGHTER HEADLIGHTS to learn why headlights had a big impact on the electrical system back then (HINT: It has nothing to do with the alternator power output or the battery capacity).

Read CHEVY Main Electrical Power System to learn how important the component locations and are they are connected together can be.
davenn said:
sounds a bit low ? considering ...
haven't found a HP rating at a given speed and RPM which would be the quantifying factorsDave

found a maximum power outgrrrr why quote totally different units for the different RPM ... how confusing !

this one for the 1.6L

Horsepower: 178 @ 5500 RPM@russ_watters would be interesting to know what RPM it was doing at your 60mph ?
When you are cruising on the highway at 60 mph, you never used the full power of the engine (You don't have the gas pedal to the floor). The power is mostly needed for aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance. For a typical car: ½ρCdAv³ + Crrmgv = ½(1.225kg/m³)(0.33)(1.7m²)(27m/s)³ + (0.01)(1500kg)(9.81m/s²)(27m/s) = 10 736 W = 14.4 hp. Divide by a 90% efficiency due to internal losses, you are at 16 hp. You now just need to add the power to run the accessories. So 17 hp sounds about right to me.

@jim hardy: In your list of intermittent loads, you forgot the power steering where electrical is becoming the norm rather than the exception.
 
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  • #29
jack action said:
@jim hardy: In your list of intermittent loads, you forgot the power steering where electrical is becoming the norm rather than the exception.
Thanks !
just the concept of electronic brakes, steering and throttle is anathema to me. See my signature.
There's some sort of electric pump on brakes now too ?
 
  • #30
jim hardy said:
i'd want a 150 amp alternator to leave me 57 for charg
ing the battery
assuming your load assumptions are correct...
You most likely do not need 57A to charge the battery

In general lead acid batteries maximum recommended charge current is A=C/3, with C being capacity.

I think (someone please correct me) most car batteries are around 50 AH. That means a little over 15A for the maximum recommended charge current.

I would say a 110A alternator would even be overkill. Your load analysis assumes everything will be on full blast all the time. Chances are you draw significantly less, maybe even little enough that you could get away with a 100A alternator and still have margin. Remember you don't need to push power into the battery all the time. Just enough to restore its SOC.

Of course, if weight/size/cost are less important than the extra power in your application, go for it :)
It's all about the trade study!
 
  • #31
davenn said:
sounds a bit low ? considering ...

haven't found a HP rating at a given speed and RPM which would be the quantifying factorsDave

found a maximum power outgrrrr why quote totally different units for the different RPM ... how confusing !

this one for the 1.6L

Horsepower: 178 @ 5500 RPM@russ_watters would be interesting to know what RPM it was doing at your 60mph ?
I drive the turbo sx; it's about 275 hp. 60 mph is at about 1700 rpm.
 
  • #32
jim hardy said:
Fuel pump three
fuel injectors ?? maybe two
heated O2 sensors maybe three ?
Total: 8 amps

Plus that coil/spark plug thingy.

Thanks for the list!
From a post I made last year, when my alternator became dysfunctional at work one day, I had no idea how many amps my car drew, minimum, to get my car home, for the 12 mile drive.
I determined that it was about 10 amps, as I had 3 solar panels which I expertly installed, with bungee cords, boxes, and spare plastic sticks, which surprisingly enough, worked!
(150 watts / 12.75 volts = 11.8 amps. Perhaps lower, as I still haven't determined properly what their output is.)
pf%20solar%20powered%20car.jpg

(Thank god it was a convertible, or it would have taken two rolls of duct tape to attach them to a roof. )

I also did some analyzing on the alternator output of one of my other cars, as I had the shop manual for that.
Alternator output at idle(900 rpm): 45 amps
Maximum output: 70 amps

jim hardy said:
i'm up to ninety three amps

You need that at night, with everything on, waiting at a stop light.

SteamKing said:
When the battery is fully charged, the charging circuit opens, and any current put out by the alternator is kept from charging the battery.

Is this something new? People her at the forum have mentioned new automotive engineering techniques which I find somewhat mind boggling. But with a 10 amp minimum load, I don't understand why it would be necessary to disconnect the battery.
 
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  • #33
jim hardy said:
There's some sort of electric pump on brakes now too ?
After the ABS releases the brakes, something needs to built the pressure up to reapply them. From Wikipedia:
Pump
The pump in the ABS is used to restore the pressure to the hydraulic brakes after the valves have released it. A signal from the controller will release the valve at the detection of wheel slip. After a valve release the pressure supplied from the user, the pump is used to restore a desired amount of pressure to the braking system. The controller will modulate the pumps status in order to provide the desired amount of pressure and reduce slipping.
donpacino said:
I think (someone please correct me) most car batteries are around 50 AH.
70 AH is probably more common (at least in cold countries). Aftermarket ones can go to 80-90 AH.
OmCheeto said:
But with a 10 amp minimum load, I don't understand why it would be necessary to disconnect the battery.
It is the alternator that is disconnected from the battery by the regulator. Like you said, your alternator can provide 45 A at idle, something must prevent it from producing this current (actually power) if you only need 10 A. It is a fast cyclic thing to control the alternator voltage output.
 
  • #34
donpacino said:
assuming your load assumptions are correct...
You most likely do not need 57A to charge the battery

You are right, even a 100AH truck battery doesn't need that much.

I was making the point car electrical load has more than quadrupled since my high school days..
I grew up on cars equipped with a ±30 amp ammeter.
Immediately after starting the ammeter goes full scale charge for a couple seconds while battery voltage recovers.
When it ceases to do that it's time to check for generator brushes worn down or current coil in mechanical voltage regulator limiting early...

So my statement was indeed colored by my preference not a hard scientific need.
Even after all these years, I still want 100+% "headroom" in alternator capacity..

donpacino said:
I would say a 110A alternator would even be overkill. Your load analysis assumes everything will be on full blast all the time. Chances are you draw significantly less, maybe even little enough that you could get away with a 100A alternator and still have margin. Remember you don't need to push power into the battery all the time.

When somebody's alternator brushes wear down and lose spring tension the symptom is the alternator is rendered incapable of full output.
It shows up on a long trip on a hot night when running nearly everything; alternator can't keep up so battery runs down to point it won't start after a refueling stop and they need a jump..
Before serpentine came along a loose alternator belt would give same symptom..

So yes, i "overkilled" .
Sorry for the boring anecdotes, - I'm just the sum total of my experience.

old jim
 
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  • #35
jack action said:
...
It is the alternator that is disconnected from the battery by the regulator. Like you said, your alternator can provide 45 A at idle, something must prevent it from producing this current (actually power) if you only need 10 A. It is a fast cyclic thing to control the alternator voltage output.

I spent 6 years in the US Navy, as an electrical operator, and to my recollection, I NEVER disconnected the generators, from the grid.
This just sounds counterintuitive to me.

Someone please jump in here, and save me!
 
  • #36
jim hardy said:
When somebody's alternator brushes wear down and lose spring tension the symptom is the alternator is rendered incapable of full output.
It shows up on a long trip on a hot night when running nearly everything; alternator can't keep up so battery runs down to point it won't start after a refueling stop and they need a jump..
Before serpentine came along a loose alternator belt would give same symptom..

Thats a good point. I tend to forget about degregation of system components.
 
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  • #37
OmCheeto said:
I spent 6 years in the US Navy, as an electrical operator, and to my recollection, I NEVER disconnected the generators, from the grid.
This just sounds counterintuitive to me.

Someone please jump in here, and save me!
It is not physically disconnected by someone. I like this air compressor analogy from madelectrical.com:
The voltage regulator limits the maximum voltage in the electrical system. In the compressed air system the pressure regulator limits the maximum pressure. The voltage regulator will also cause the alternator to produce more output, when voltage (pressure) at the electrical system is low. And in the compressed air system, the pressure switch will turn on the compressor when system pressure gets low.

Lights, ignition, and accessories use power from the electrical system. Every time we switch an accessory ON, more power is drawn from the system. Voltage (electrical pressure) drops as power is drawn from the system, and then the voltage regulator causes the alternator to make more current. And in the compressed air system an impact wrench, blowgun, paint gun, or the fitting for filling a tire, can all use power (compressed air) from the system. When we use compressed air from the system, PSI (air pressure) drops, and the regulator turns the compressor ON. In the electrical system, the voltage regulator “turns the alternator ON,” or “turns OFF the alternator” as needed to maintain voltage at the proper level. And in the air compressor system the pressure regulator stops and starts the compressor as needed to maintain the proper level of pressure.
 
  • #38
jack action said:
It is not physically disconnected ...
That's all I needed to hear.

Thanks!
 
  • #39
OmCheeto said:
Someone please jump in here, and save me!
automobiles - ... they evolved,

so as soon as you say "Here's how it works" somebody will take those words to heart only to find he hard way his is different.

In the days of DC generators (until early 60's) indeed a relay in the voltage regulator disconnected the generator from the battery whenever it was making insufficient voltage to overcome the battery.
Some early alternators did the same thing, i had a ~'65 Ford Falcon with such a relay in its regulator. .
But my '62 Chrysler had no such relay, it relied on the rectifier inside the alternator to prevent reverse current from battery .

Everything I've encountered since ~1970, GM Ford and a friend's Mercedes, relied on the rectifiers , there is no disconnect. The big wire at rear of alternator is "hot" at all times.
That invites trouble when getting a jump-start as follows:
When somebody hooks the jumper cables backward, that forward biases the rectifiers inside the alternator and often wrecks them. They fail shorted so no longer block reverse current. . Now the battery will discharge through the alternator probably overheating its windings and ruining it. If you're lucky the fusible link in alternator wire will open before the wiring harness melts.

Introduction for shade tree mechanics here:
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/ChargingSystem.html
He shows the Bosch system i found on my sister's Mercedes Benz
a friend's Ford van was identical just had different letters on the terminals.
upload_2016-6-10_16-7-34.png

Observe the "warning lamp" is the source of field current when first starting up.
Once the alternator makes a few volts it provides power to the D+ terminal for its field, "pulling itself up by its bootstraps" if you will.
But the bulb by itself doesn't pass enough current to initiate the "bootstrap".
My friend's Ford had a ~5 ohm resistor right across the rear of the lamp socket to deliver a couple amps of bootstrap current. When that resistor failed, the symptom was of course the light stays on because the alternator can't bootstrap itself into operation. My friend found if he over-revved his engine the light would go out - it bootstraps from the trickle of lamp current if you spin it uncomfortably fast .
We installed a temporary pushbutton across the lampholder terminals for "bootstrap" until we could locate a resistor. .

Sorry to be so un-academic in a physics forum
but physics majors have car troubles just like the rest of us... I hope this helps somebody figure theirs out .

old jim
 
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  • #40
OmCheeto said:
I spent 6 years in the US Navy, as an electrical operator, and to my recollection, I NEVER disconnected the generators, from the grid.
This just sounds counterintuitive to me.

Someone please jump in here, and save me!
I bet in the Navy, you used alternators instead of generators, even though you called them generators.

In the car battery charging circuit, the voltage regulator does not trip the alternator completely off-line when the battery is charged, it reduces the amount of current generated by the alternator by reducing the amount of current sent to the alternator's field coils. If the field coils are not energized, the alternator can't make any additional current to send to the rest of the electrical system.

Like any self-contained power plant, a ship's electrical generating plant must contain a means whereby one alternator can be properly shut down for maintenance or repair without requiring the entire plant to be shut down. It might be terrifically inconvenient, but it can be done. I sailed on a merchant ship which lost one of our two turbo-alternators while at sea. We had to use the back-up diesel generator (Fairbanks-Morse opposed piston engine) and put it on-line in place of the damaged steam turbine alternator. Since the damage couldn't be repaired outside of a dockyard, we used the F-M generator the rest of our trip.
 
  • #41
SteamKing said:
I bet in the Navy, you used alternators instead of generators, even though you called them generators.
I don't remember anyone mentioning "alternators" while I was assigned to the surface fleet, and the submarine I was on had at least two things they called "motor-generators", MG's for short.
The DC end of the MG's ran through so many brushes, it was ridiculous!
Much worse than my '61 VW beetle.

On both sides of the surface, we call the things that made AC "turbo-generators", TG's for short. "SSTG" stood for "Ships Service Turbo Generator".
Both vessels were built around 1959, and I was assigned to them between 1979 and 1983.
Not sure what the kids nowadays are playing with. Could quite well be "alternators".

In the car battery charging circuit, the voltage regulator does not trip the alternator completely off-line when the battery is charged, it reduces the amount of current generated by the alternator by reducing the amount of current sent to the alternator's field coils. If the field coils are not energized, the alternator can't make any additional current to send to the rest of the electrical system.
That sounds better.
Like any self-contained power plant, a ship's electrical generating plant must contain a means whereby one alternator can be properly shut down for maintenance or repair without requiring the entire plant to be shut down. It might be terrifically inconvenient, but it can be done. I sailed on a merchant ship which lost one of our two turbo-alternators while at sea. We had to use the back-up diesel generator (Fairbanks-Morse opposed piston engine) and put it on-line in place of the damaged steam turbine alternator. Since the damage couldn't be repaired outside of a dockyard, we used the F-M generator the rest of our trip.
Ah ha! You said generator! :biggrin:
 
  • #42
jim hardy said:
Some early alternators did the same thing, i had a ~'65 Ford Falcon with such a relay in its regulator. .
But my '62 Chrysler had no such relay, it relied on the rectifier inside the alternator to prevent reverse current from battery .
The relay is an intrinsic component of a [mechanical] regulator. That component was replaced by an electronic version around 1970. With the smaller size, they were able to incorporate the regulator within the alternator. Here's a picture of such a regulator with the rectifier beside it (which is not the same thing):

Alter.Repair-Kit-15-SI.jpg


Your '62 Chrysler had an external mechanical regulator too for sure. Unless you had it after 1970 and someone converted it.
 
  • #43
jack action said:
Your '62 Chrysler had an external mechanical regulator too for sure.
Yes. Only one coil in it to control voltage. No current coil because an alternator is inherently current limiting . No disconnect relay because of the rectifiers inside alternator. I marveled at the simplicity.
That year they used a grounded field alternator the regulator supplied + to the field from ignition switch.
By 1965 they'd changed to an ungrounded field alternator, the regulator providing ground instead of + .

Of course they're all electronic now as in your picture so you can no longer see by eye and feel with a fingertip how they operate because nothing moves..
The 50's and 60's was a great time to learn basics because , well, everything you encountered was pretty basic.

old jim
 
  • #44
OmCheeto said:
I don't remember anyone mentioning "alternators" while I was assigned to the surface fleet, and the submarine I was on had at least two things they called "motor-generators", MG's for short.

I can't speak for the specific MGs on the submarine, but I might be able to add some insight to the word "alternator."

The word alternator is an archaic term that has somehow survived the test of time, but usually only when applied to the automotive field. Some terms that have not survived are condenser which is now replaced by capacitor, and rheostat which is replaced by either potentiometer or variable resistor. For some reason, alternator remains the most common term for an automobile's AC generator.

There is some history behind this. Some time ago (even a bit before my day), solid state rectifiers -- what we now call diodes -- that were practical for high current, automotive applications, didn't exist. Vacuum tubes could do it, but those aren't necessarily practical for a car engine. So the car's battery was recharged via an actual DC dynamo generator*. Dynamo generators have lots of problems such as being difficult to regulate and requiring more maintenance due to commutator wear. So in the 1960's, when silicon diodes became affordable, the automotive industry switched to using AC generators, a.k.a. alternators, converting the AC signal to DC using the solid state silicon diodes. Getting rid of the problem prone, unreliable DC generators was a big deal. For awhile, having an alternator was an indication (to the common person) that the car was designed with high-tech, state-of-the-art quality. I'm guessing that's why the name stuck.

But in other fields this apparatus is just called a generator. And if you want to get specific then it's an AC generator (and if you want to get really specific it's a synchronous machine or synchronous AC generator). For example, the steam turbine at your local power plant is physically connected to and drives a really, really big version of your car's alternator. But they don't call it an alternator. They just call it a generator.

*(Dynamo generators are still used today on small engines -- like the one that powers your lawnmower. The principle involves a spinning magnet, typically attached to the flywheel [in small engines], that spins around, occasionally passing by a coil of wire. In combination with a capacitor (a.k.a condenser) and a commutator a DC voltage source can be produced**.)

**(Edit: I should clarify that if your lawnmower is manually started, has no fancy-schmancy frills, and doesn't have an onboard battery, then there is no need for the additional components for DC conversion. In this case, the electrical system is called a magneto system.)
 
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  • #45
jim hardy said:
In the days of DC generators (until early 60's) indeed a relay in the voltage regulator disconnected the generator from the battery whenever it was making insufficient voltage to overcome the battery.
Known as the cutout relay. The cutout relay is not part of regulation. It was typically housed in the same package as the relay that regulated voltage but it served a different purpose. Actual generators with segmented commutators would typically use an external package that housed these two relays and sometimes a relay that regulated current. This relay had a coil that passed ALL of the charging current and would open the field circuit when the charging current exceeded a preset level.
-
Edit: Jim I know that you know this but there was a post that implied (in my opinion) this relay was part of regulation and of course it is not.
 
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  • #46
Averagesupernova said:
Edit: Jim I know that you know this but there was a post that implied (in my opinion) this relay was part of regulation and of course it is not.
Thanks ! Instruction pamphlet here for those old Delco regulators
in case anyone is into ~1930 thru 1963-ish cars...

http://ruiter.ca/mc/info/PDFs/1R-118.pdf
upload_2016-6-10_22-6-18.png


Cutout relay is just that, it does the job of a big diode, just prevents the battery from discharging backward through the generator.
Big diodes weren't common until the 1960's.
Regulator coils are just that, their contacts "tap dance" to control generator voltage and current.by interrupting field current tens of times per second. You can feel them working with a fingertip. You can push on them and have your helper( or lovely assistant? ) watch generator respond on the vehicle's ammeter.
Think of them as electromechanical operational amplifiers -- Not so reliable as solid state but a lot easier to troubleshoot ..

The Chrysler alternator regulator i described had only a voltage regulating relay so was much smaller.

old jim
 
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  • #47
collinsmark said:
I can't speak for the specific MGs on the submarine,
Nor, no matter how much I actually know about them, can I.
Submarine Power & Propulsion
Maneuvering Room Consoles

Supervised by the engineering officer of the watch, one petty officer mans each of these three consoles to monitor and control the submarine's entire nuclear power plant. The console to your left controls the steam turbines. The center console is the nuclear reactor control panel, while the right-hand console controls the electrical system.

Displaying consoles like these in public, something never before done, has required modifications to protect sensitive classified information about the design and operation of nuclear-powered submarines. Where necessary, scales on instrument faces have been modified, instrument labels altered, or instruments repositioned, and some classified nuclear instrumentation has been removed.
All I can say is that everything worked quite well. And it appears that they've kept up the good work since I got out.
Forbes
...
The Nuclear Navy has logged over 5,400 reactor years of accident-free operations and traveled over 130 million miles on nuclear energy, enough to circle the Earth 3,200 times.
...

but I might be able to add some insight to the word "alternator."
...
Thanks! Naming new things that are similar, but different, seems to be a constant problem.

The word alternator is an archaic term that has somehow survived the test of time, but usually only when applied to the automotive field.
...
**(Edit: I should clarify that if your lawnmower is manually started, has no fancy-schmancy frills, and doesn't have an onboard battery, then there is no need for the additional components for DC conversion. In this case, the electrical system is called a magneto system.)
I have an AC electric lawnmower.
But I do have a not so fancy-schmancy outboard motor, that has an electric starter, magneto spark device, but no alternator.
Hence, why if you've seen pictures of any of my boats, there is usually a solar power generator(?:-p?) somewhere in the picture.

Another.boat.who.wouldnt.float.jpg


Actually, even if the motor did have an alternator, I'm pretty sure the leaks in that stupid boat would have drained the battery.

hmmmm... Now I've forgotten what the question was...

Akmalidin said:
Hello,

I am a Telecommunications student who does not have a lot clue about cars.Does a car charges up its battery when it moves? What power supply is used for lighting in car, the battery? So if car charges the battery when it moves, why sometimes external/additional charging of battery is vital ?

I see this was answered in the 2nd post.
 
  • #48
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  • #49
nsaspook said:
Don't ever, ever, ever disconnect the battery while the alternator is running.
Well, if the battery is fully charged, I can disconnect it without any consequences. Also, @jim hardy is safe with his '68 Ford truck with no electronics. So maybe one or two ever are enough ... :smile:
 
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  • #50
nsaspook said:
Even the electronic voltage regulation is slow in response to a 'Load Dump' event. Don't ever, ever, ever disconnect the battery while the alternator is running.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_dump

http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/e...n_automotive_environment_application_note.pdf
Interesting. I'm not sure I've ever heard of that.

And from the second article, another good reason to make sure your battery connections are tight.

A load dump may result from a battery disconnect resulting from cable corrosion, poor connection or an intentional battery disconnect while the car is still running.
 
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