Dealing with Undefined Values in Calculus: A Lesson in Limits

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a calculus problem involving limits and undefined values in the context of a collision scenario between two moving points. The original poster attempts to analyze the rate of change of the distance between these points as they approach each other, leading to a situation where the derivative becomes undefined at the time of collision.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Conceptual clarification

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the implications of the undefined division when the distance and its derivative both approach zero at the time of collision. Some question the validity of simplifications made at this point.

Discussion Status

There is an ongoing exploration of the nature of limits and derivatives, with some participants suggesting that the undefined nature of the division is not necessarily problematic within the context of limits. Others draw parallels to similar mathematical scenarios involving limits to clarify the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants are navigating the complexities of calculus definitions, particularly regarding derivatives and limits, while considering the specific conditions of the problem that lead to undefined values.

archaic
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This is not to ask for a solution, rather I want comments on the rigor of the step. Thank you for your time!
rr.jpg

The graph shows a system of two points at ##t## and ##t+dt##, it is a bit exaggerated of course.
The upper point is moving strictly in the ##x## direction and has a constant velocity ##u##, while the lower point is always moving towards the upper point with constant velocity ##v>u##. I want to find the rate of change of the distance ##\mathcal{L}(t)## which separates them (to find the time of collision ##\tau##).

Keeping in mind that ##\cos(\pi-\theta)=-\cos(\theta)## and the cosines' law:
$$\begin{align*}
\mathcal{L}^2(t+\Delta t)&\approx(u\Delta t)^2+(\mathcal{L}(t)-v\Delta t)^2+2(u\Delta t)(\mathcal{L}(t)-v\Delta t)\cos(\theta(t))\\
&\approx(u\Delta t)^2+\mathcal{L}^2(t)-2v\mathcal{L}(t)\Delta t+(v\Delta t)^2+2u\mathcal{L}(t)\cos(\theta(t))\Delta t-2uv\cos(\theta(t))(\Delta t)^2
\end{align*}$$
$$\begin{align*}
\mathcal{L}^2(t+\Delta t)-\mathcal{L}^2(t)&\approx(u\Delta t)^2-2v\mathcal{L}(t)\Delta t+(v\Delta t)^2+2u\mathcal{L}(t)\cos(\theta(t))\Delta t-2uv\cos(\theta(t))(\Delta t)^2\\
\frac{\mathcal{L}^2(t+\Delta t)-\mathcal{L}^2(t)}{\Delta t}&\approx u^2\Delta t-2v\mathcal{L}(t)+v^2\Delta t+2u\mathcal{L}(t)\cos(\theta(t))-2uv\cos(\theta(t))\Delta t
\end{align*}$$
Now let ##\Delta t\to 0##, we have:
$$\begin{align*}
\frac{d}{dt}\mathcal{L}^2(t)&=-2v\mathcal{L}(t)+2u\mathcal{L}(t)\cos(\theta(t))\\
\Leftrightarrow 2\mathcal{L}(t)\mathcal{L}'(t)&=-2v\mathcal{L}(t)+2u\mathcal{L}(t)\cos(\theta(t))\\
\Leftrightarrow \mathcal{L}'(t)&=-v+u\cos(\theta(t))
\end{align*}$$
My problem is here, when ##t=\tau##, ##\mathcal{L}(\tau)=\mathcal{L}'(\tau)=0## and the division is then undefined. How can I go around this?
 
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archaic said:
... and the division is then undefined
I don't see this as a problem. In the definition of the derivative of f at a point x0, you have this limit:
$$\lim_{h \to 0}\frac{f(x_0 + h) - f(x_0)} h$$
When h = 0, the fraction is undefined, but that is the whole idea of defining the derivative in terms of a limit.
 
Mark44 said:
I don't see this as a problem. In the definition of the derivative of f at a point x0, you have this limit:
$$\lim_{h \to 0}\frac{f(x_0 + h) - f(x_0)} h$$
When h = 0, the fraction is undefined, but that is the whole idea of defining the derivative in terms of a limit.
Oh no, not that. I'am talking about the division by the length in the last step.
 
Your equation will be valid as ##\mathcal L (t)## approaches 0.
 
Mark44 said:
Your equation will be valid as ##\mathcal L (t)## approaches 0.
How can I have a definite answer then? If I consider the simplification true when ##t=\tau##, the answer is correct.
 
Your question seems to me to be similar to this:
If ##f(x) = \frac{x^2 - 1}{x - 1}##, what is f(1)?
Well, f(1) is undefined, because both numerator and denominator are zero when x = 1.
But, by using limits, we can determine that ##\lim_{x \to 1} = \lim_{x \to 1}\frac{x^2 - 1}{x - 1} = \lim_{x \to 1} \frac{(x - 1)(x + 1)}{x - 1} = \lim_{x \to 1}x + 1 = 2##.
Clearly if x = 1, cancalling x - 1 from numerator and denominator isn't valid, but for any other value of x, ##\frac{(x - 1)(x + 1)}{x - 1} = x + 1##
 
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Mark44 said:
Your question seems to me to be similar to this:
If ##f(x) = \frac{x^2 - 1}{x - 1}##, what is f(1)?
Well, f(1) is undefined, because both numerator and denominator are zero when x = 1.
But, by using limits, we can determine that ##\lim_{x \to 1} = \lim_{x \to 1}\frac{x^2 - 1}{x - 1} = \lim_{x \to 1} \frac{(x - 1)(x + 1)}{x - 1} = \lim_{x \to 1}x + 1 = 2##.
Clearly if x = 1, cancalling x - 1 from numerator and denominator isn't valid, but for any other value of x, ##\frac{(x - 1)(x + 1)}{x - 1} = x + 1##
i.e the "correct" way to answer the problem is by canceling inside the limit.
 

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