Difficult optimal cable cost analysis

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The discussion centers around a complex cable cost analysis problem involving the calculation of tension and length expressions based on the coordinates of point B. Participants suggest deriving the cost as a function of these variables and minimizing it using calculus. Key points include the necessity of expressing the tension in terms of the coordinates and employing Gaussian elimination to solve the resulting equations. A local minimum for the cost function is identified, but the conversation reveals concerns about whether this minimum is also a global minimum, leading to further exploration of constraints and inequalities. The analysis emphasizes the importance of maintaining physical constraints in the optimization process.
  • #51
voko said:
Review #7.

It just says b is some constant. If b is some constant that is multiplied by the tension, I still need the actual tension of the cable to multiply by the length.
 
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  • #52
rollingstein said:
In hindsight I was wrong. That is not the reason for " someone squared it to get length squared ".

I was just lucky! :-p Two wrongs made a right!
Okay thanks :)
 
  • #53
algar32 said:
Okay thanks :)

It got squared because the other identical square root came from the tension term.

I mistakenly assumed all other than b was a unit vector. It was not.
 
  • #54
rollingstein said:
It got squared because the other identical square root came from the tension term.

I mistakenly assumed all other than b was a unit vector. It was not.

so now I have an equation for

Length x tension

(sqrt(Sqrt(z^2+x^2)^2 +y^2)^2)*tension

I am told b is not equal to tension, but is related and I was never quite sure of the relation. B is just some made up positive constant. So how can I find tension from what I have done thus far? If I can find tension all I will have to do left is do the minimization of Lenght x tension. Thanks.
 
  • #55
voko said:
Indeed b > 0 is a physical constraint that must be satisfied. This constrains the domain of the cost function. And it must be minimized in that domain.

On further thought, if b>0 why do we not need to also ensure that c>0 and d>0?

They all being chains violation of these constraints would cause one of the other chains to go slack too?

Or are those constraints automatically met?

Shouldn't we be adding and testing boundaries like x+z=0 and x-z=0? Maybe I was just lucky with that too!
 
  • #56
algar32 said:
I am told b is not equal to tension, but is related and I was never quite sure of the relation. B is just some made up positive constant. So how can I find tension from what I have done thus far?

Think harder. :smile:
 
  • #57
rollingstein said:
On further thought, if b>0 why do we not need to also ensure that c>0 and d>0?

They all being chains violation of these constraints would cause one of the other chains to go slack too?

Or are those constraints automatically met?

Shouldn't we be adding constraints like x+z=0 and x-z=0?

Is it only for b simply because that is the only cable we care to optimize costs for in this problem?
 
  • #58
rollingstein said:
Think harder. :smile:

Not sure this helped :(. Could you point me in the right direction?
 
  • #59
algar32 said:
Not sure this helped :(. Could you point me in the right direction?

Formula for Magnitude of a vector? Tension's a vector.
 
  • #60
rollingstein said:
Formula for Magnitude of a vector? Tension's a vector.

the magnitude is just the sqrt( x^2+y^2+z^2)

in our case that would be sqrt(x^2+16+z^2)

You are telling me that is the tension?
If that is the case where does the equation of b come into play?Thanks.
 
  • #61
algar32 said:
the magnitude is just the sqrt( x^2+y^2+z^2)

in our case that would be sqrt(x^2+16+z^2)

You are telling me that is the tension?
If that is the case where does the equation of b come into play?Thanks.

Tension magnitude = sqrt(x^2+16+z^2) times b

b was a scalar.

I may be wrong. Let someone confirm.
 
  • #62
is it Tab= b(tension)

=(2963/5x+z+12) (x^2+16+z^2)
 
  • #63
rollingstein said:
sqrt(x^2+16+z^2) times b

b was a scalar.

Okay just saw this now. I think I got the same in my last post so... length x tension
= (x^2+16+z^2) x (2963/5x+z+12) (x^2+16+z^2)

Then minimize this equation?
 
  • #64
algar32 said:
Okay just saw this now. I think I got the same in my last post so...


length x tension
= (x^2+16+z^2) x (2963/5x+z+12) (x^2+16+z^2)

No.

sqrt(x^2+16+z^2) x (2963/5x+z+12) sqrt(x^2+16+z^2)
 
  • #65
rollingstein said:
No.

sqrt(x^2+16+z^2) x (2963/5x+z+12) sqrt(x^2+16+z^2)

eh my bad. I meant to put those in there... I need sleep :(. Anyway thanks for the help. I understand where this eq. comes from now. When voko did his minimization the 2963 is never included. Could you provide some insight as to where this goes? Thanks.
 
  • #66
algar32 said:
eh my bad. I meant to put those in there... I need sleep :(. Anyway thanks for the help. I understand where this eq. comes from now. When voko did his minimization the 2963 is never included. Could you provide some insight as to where this goes? Thanks.


min(k*f(x,y)) = k * min(f(x,y))
 
  • #67
rollingstein said:
min(k*f(x,y)) = k * min(f(x,y))

Okay so the k in your equation is just the 2963 constant being brought out because it is no longer needed for the calculation of the cost function.

It completely unrelated to the value of k in voko's work correct?

voko said:
Indeed b > 0 is a physical constraint that must be satisfied. This constrains the domain of the cost function. And it must be minimized in that domain.

For a general multivariate function, global minimization is a very difficult problem. In this case, however, the problem can be analyzed with elementary means. Let's take some value k and see if the cost function can be less than that: i.e.,

(x^2 + z^2 +16)/(5*x+z+12) < k

(x^2 + z^2 +16) < k(5*x+z+12)

(x^2 + z^2 +16) - k(5*x+z+12) < 0

x^2 - 5kx + (2.5k)^2 - (2.5k)^2 + z^2 - kz + (0.5k)^2 - (0.5k)^2 + 16 - 12k < 0

(x - 2.5k)^2 - (2.5k)^2 + (z - 0.5k)^2 - (0.5k)^2 + 16 - 12k < 0

(x - 2.5k)^2 + (z - 0.5k)^2 - 6.5k^2 - 12k + 16 < 0

It is obvious that the minimum of the left-hand side expression is -6.5k^2 - 12k + 16, so -6.5k^2 - 12k + 16 < 0. What does this inequality mean? It means that for any k satisfying it, there are lesser values of the cost function, i.e., this value is not minimal.

There are two ranges of k satisfying this inequality: ## k > 4 \frac {\sqrt{35} - 3 } {13} ## and ## k < -4 \frac {\sqrt{35} + 3 } {13} ##. The second range is invalid, because we require that the cost-function be positive, so we have only one range, and that means that ## \displaystyle k = 4 \frac {\sqrt{35} - 3 } {13} ## is the greatest value, for which no lesser value exists, i.e., it is the global minimum. And it is exactly the value you obtained for the local minimum, so the local minimum is also global.
 
  • #68
Also I followed vokos steps for global minimization. Wolfram says there is no global minima. Why is this?

Also now that I have the global minima, what is the best way to find x an zfrom this? Thanks.
 
Last edited:
  • #69
Regarding the global minimum, you have to specify that 5x+z+12 > 0.

To get x and z, go back to (x - 2.5k)^2 + (z - 0.5k)^2 - 6.5k^2 - 12k + 16 < 0. The minimum is attained when (x - 2.5k) = 0 and (z - 0.5k)^2 = 0.
 
  • #70
thanks
 

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