Do you think abortion should be legal?

[Sweet & Intellectual]

Do you think abortion should be legal?

Yes, No
And what restrictions, in your opinion?

I searched "abortion" to see if there was already a topic about it and I couldn't find one, but if there is -- tell me and i'll delete this one.

 

[russ_watters]

Do you think abortion should be legal?

Yes, No
And what restrictions, in your opinion?

I searched "abortion" to see if there was already a topic about it and I couldn't find one, but if there is -- tell me and i'll delete this one.

Its been a while since its been debated...

My opinion:

Abortions shouldn't be done after the 1st trimester except in special cases and after the 2nd except in extreme cases.

But, that isn't to say I think abortion should be illegal. Being male, I am uncomfortable making that law. I guess you could say, I'm pro choice, but anti-abortion.

 

[check]

I'm kind of the same, Russ. I'm anti-abortion but pro-baby killing...that way, everyone loses!
KIDDING PEOPLE! jeez...

 

[Smurf]

Abortion should not be illegal. Russ' restrictions sound fine to me.

Having said that, anyone who says "A woman's right to choose" will forever lose any respect I might have had for them.

 

[Sweet & Intellectual]

Let me just apologize in advance for how my response might affect someone, however we'll have to agree to disagree on abortion.

I am pro-life under any circumstances EXCEPT death of the mother.

None of the mothers actions is the childs fault, and that is what adoption is for.
My feeling is that if you allow a penis to enter a vagina, at that point you are fully responsible, and should be prepared to have a child anyway.

Some people argue that I am a mean person because I think that if a woman is raped, she should still have the child, but what those people are misunderstanding is that, when that child is born - it has a lifetime in front of them and they won't be thinking about their mother being raped every day of it. They'll be sorry, but I am sure he/she(the child) will be much happier it is alive.

9 months opposed to a lifetime, is nothing.

 

[Kerrie]

Let me just apologize in advance for how my response might affect someone, however we'll have to agree to disagree on abortion.

I am pro-life under any circumstances EXCEPT death of the mother.

None of the mothers actions is the childs fault, and that is what adoption is for.
My feeling is that if you allow a penis to enter a vagina, at that point you are fully responsible, and should be prepared to have a child anyway.

Some people argue that I am a mean person because I think that if a woman is raped, she should still have the child, but what those people are misunderstanding is that, when that child is born - it has a lifetime in front of them and they won't be thinking about their mother being raped every day of it. They'll be sorry, but I am sure he/she(the child) will be much happier it is alive.

9 months opposed to a lifetime, is nothing.

it may have some justification in being morally wrong, but LOGICALLY, to outlaw abortion is to put women's life in danger as they will seek illegal and unsafe abortions because they know we (as in our society) have the technology and means to perform it...i think this is the main reason abortion does and will stay legal, not because of moral reasons. i think anyone who is pro-choice should forgo their own opportunity to reproduce and be willing to adopt the unwanted children that their mother's chose NOT to abort...

 

[member 5645]

Its been a while since its been debated...

My opinion:

Abortions shouldn't be done after the 1st trimester except in special cases and after the 2nd except in extreme cases.

But, that isn't to say I think abortion should be illegal. Being male, I am uncomfortable making that law. I guess you could say, I'm pro choice, but anti-abortion.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[wasteofo2]

Hey, whady'a know, I'm pretty much in agreement with Russ.

I'm against abortion unless the mother's life is in danger.

However, there are stupid, irresponsible people who will get pregnant when they don't want to, and having a child born to parents who are A) stupid enough to have a baby they didn't want, and B) not going to love them, is a horrible thing. So what I'm for, is making it so that no one who doesn't want to have a baby will. This includes educating as many people as possible about birth-control mechanisms, and giving out birth control for free in many different locations. It's a horrible situation where someone has to choose between killing an unborn baby and having a baby they don't even want, and I'm for doing anything to make it so that situations arises as infrequently as possible.

If someone's raped, that's horrible, and they should see their doctor right away and aside from having any injuries to them being checked, be given a "morning after" pill, which (from what I remember from health class) will actually work around 2 full days after.

Educate people about birth control, give it away, whatever, just make sure people don't get pregnant when they don't want to.

I'm glad to see that at least on this issue, everyone seems to be in complete agreement about the goal, it's likely just the method people would use to attain this goal that would differ from one another.

 

[LURCH]

it may have some justification in being morally wrong, but LOGICALLY, to outlaw abortion is to put women's life in danger as they will seek illegal and unsafe abortions because they know we (as in our society) have the technology and means to perform it...i think this is the main reason abortion does and will stay legal, not because of moral reasons. i think anyone who is pro-choice should forgo their own opportunity to reproduce and be willing to adopt the unwanted children that their mother's chose NOT to abort...

Can't say I agree with the reasoning. This sounds to me a lot like the old "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" position. I just think it's a bad idea to make something legal just because of what criminals will do if it's illegal. If we legalise homocide, we can egt government controlls in place and make sure the killings get done efficiently and with a minimum of suffering for the victim or risk to innocent bystanders ( a ridiculous example, but I think the principles are the same). It just doesn't make a good reason for taking that action.

SI,
Although I tend to agree with your position, I'm not in total agreement with your reasoning, either. Your entire line of reason depends on the assumption that a fetus is a living person, doesn't it? I don't think anyone can say for certain that it is or it isn't. However, I do think abortion should be outlawed.

 

[wasteofo2]

Your entire line of reason depends on the assumption that a fetus is a living person, doesn't it? I don't think anyone can say for certain that it is or it isn't.

Go to the Bio forum and ask that question, you'll get all sorts of explanations of exactly what fetuses have the ability to do/what body parts they have at what stages of development. It's amazing how quickly they advance, and how quickly they really are just immature, fully developed humans.

 

[GENIERE]

… Abortions shouldn't be done after the 1st trimester except in special cases and after the 2nd except in extreme cases…QUOTE]

I’m in agreement with Russ as above and with the rest of his post but would probably always extend it to the 2nd trimester. I can’t support my position morally or logically. After that period of time I would be unwilling to support an elective abortive procedure, or any elective procedure, if my tax dollars pay for it. I could certainly use an extension and I don’t like my nose, but hey; that’s life.

...

 

[kat]

Go to the Bio forum and ask that question, you'll get all sorts of explanations of exactly what fetuses have the ability to do/what body parts they have at what stages of development. It's amazing how quickly they advance, and how quickly they really are just immature, fully developed humans.

Too true. Although I believe that (as a woman) I have a right to decide what happens to my body I don't think we do ourselves any justice by fooling ourselves. We women make a choice when choosing to abort. Our life/lifestyle over that of another human beings, it just so happens that it's also somewhat of a temporary appendage which we have a right to remove if we so choose.

 

[Gokul43201]

Clearly, the crux of the matter should be in defining these "special" and "extreme" cases. What is the problem with putting in the right medical wording that leaves little room for "loopholes" ? I think it's dangerous to refuse to debate the details of the matter, on the basis of one ideology or the other.

 

[Moonbear]

Like many others here, I would say that abortion in the first trimester is acceptable, I would even extend that into the 4th month of pregnancy. By the 5th and 6th months, it's getting iffy. Then it shouldn't be just because the woman decided she doesn't want to be pregnant anymore or doesn't want a baby, but because something is going wrong...major birth defects detected, health problems for the mother (an example would be she is diagnosed with a rapidly spreading cancer that can't wait until the end of the pregnancy to begin treating to have any chance of surviving...the alternatives of her not living long enough to be a mom or the fetus being harmed by chemotherapy are not any better than aborting and getting treatment).

In the last trimester, abortion should only be permitted if either the mother or fetus will not survive otherwise. In other words, if the fetus develops such a problem that it's not likely to survive once delivered, even if it will be born alive, then allow the mother to abort and spare those last few traumatic months expecting to deliver a baby that will die within hours of birth. Or, if something is life-threatening to the mother, abortion is an option late in pregnancy.

The most important component to my opinion on abortion is that everything possible should be done to educate people and make birth control available so that unwanted pregnancies don't happen in the first place. And, I also believe that if someone is anti-abortion, then they should not stigmatize a woman for having that baby...i.e., the case of an unwed and/or teen mother. I also think those are the people who need to step up to the plate and adopt children. Afterall, adoption isn't much of a solution if nobody wants to adopt the children.

 

[vanesch]

I'm kind of the same, Russ. I'm anti-abortion but pro-baby killing...that way, everyone loses!
KIDDING PEOPLE! jeez...

It is not that silly, in fact. Why is it more "wrong" to kill a newborn baby than to kill an adult dog, except for a species preference ?

 

[Sweet & Intellectual]

It is not that silly, in fact. Why is it more "wrong" to kill a newborn baby than to kill an adult dog, except for a species preference ?

It's not more wrong at all, it's exactly the same. =) I agree.

 

[kat]

It is not that silly, in fact. Why is it more "wrong" to kill a newborn baby than to kill an adult dog, except for a species preference ?

Well, I'm not sure I'm quite ready to compare babies to dogs BUT if I were to compare humans to dogs I might point out that when a dog kills it's pups it's not usually allowed to breed again...

 

[BobG]

Anyone compare which economic groups have the most abortions and then compare that to crime rates about 17 years or so after Roe vs. Wade on up to the present?

Regardless of the above, I'm anti-abortion and debates over trimesters and so on are splitting hairs. The only exceptions should be health of the mother, rape, incest, and detectable disabilities. For the most part, people should take responsibilities for their actions.

 

[member 5645]

Anyone compare which economic groups have the most abortions and then compare that to crime rates about 17 years or so after Roe vs. Wade on up to the present?

Regardless of the above, I'm anti-abortion and debates over trimesters and so on are splitting hairs. The only exceptions should be health of the mother, rape, incest, and detectable disabilities. For the most part, people should take responsibilities for their actions.

I hardly consider a clump of cells and a developed baby the same thing, so I disagree that it is "splitting hairs".

 

[wasteofo2]

It is not that silly, in fact. Why is it more "wrong" to kill a newborn baby than to kill an adult dog, except for a species preference ?

Because humans just naturally just value humans above other species.

 

[False Prophet]

Good points about birth control and education, that is clearly the key.

Has anyone even considered the issue of population? Don't forget there are 6,395,304,868 people. If we outlaw abortion then do you know how many babies there will be that no one will adopt? Will we force unfit parents to raise the children anyway?

If something like this is against the law, people will still do it. Just look at all those crack-heads. Before they prohibit abortion and shut down all the clinics I hope they let me know so I can invest all my money in the coat hanger industry.

 

[Tsu]

I once heard someone say that everyone who is trying to control the lives of others by outlawing abortion (or forcing them to go underground again - those were UGLY days!, as many women died - or even out of the country) should be the very ones who will love, care for, nurture and financially support (all the way through college) all of the unwanted children that would flood the orphanages. Not a bad idea, actually...

 

[Smurf]

we already have flooded orphanages, don't tell me they're only going to support the children if abortion is outlawed.

 

[Tsu]

we already have flooded orphanages,

WHAT?!?

You mean all the people who oppose abortion haven't gone in and adopted all those poor unwanted and unaborted children yet?!? What's the problem?

 

[onegermanbeerglass]

Major Issues in the Abortion Issue, and my take:

Woman's Choice:
How many choices should s woman have? Admittedly rape is the exception to the arguement, bust aside from that, consider these choices:
1. choice to have sex
2. choice to use personal birth control
3. choice to insist upon a partner's birth control
4. choice to take a morning after pill
The choices are already there.

Morally and Ethically:
There can be no debate that what comprises an unborn baby is living matter at any point following conception. What constitutes human or sentient life is what is up for debate. The conscious and willful decision to destory living matter is debatable on moral and ethical issues. The conscious and willful decision to destory living matter for a purpose other than to support or perpetuate life is immoral and unethical.

Life of the Mother:
The tricky question here is, is the mother's life more valuable than the child's, or vice versa. This is difficult, because the child is at more risk for a difficult life without a mother, but the child has more life to live than the mother. Here is a mtter where I'm generally torn. What tips the scales for me is that the mother's life is almost never 100% at risk. Additionally, there are alternative methods, like C-Sections which can protect both the mother and the child in most circumstances.

Population Control:
Even after you factor in immigration and illegal immigration, the population of the US is stagnant. The last thing the US needs is to stem or curb population growth. The population growth problems are in places lilke Africa, where abortion is neither an option nor an issue, and other places where population grows at rates like 7:1. In other words, this isn't an issue for abortion in the US.

Abortion as Eugenics:
This is the topic rarely if ever addressed and I'll appologize up front for anyone who is offended by the notion. This idea is that abortion benefits society in that those who would abort their children are more likely to raise their children poorly. More over, those children placed for adoption are statistically more likely to lead lives involving crime. Lastly, the conditions which yield sex offenders, like rapists, are sometimes genetic, and can be passed on to children. The overall notion is that those likely to be aborted are more likely to be slight on society than those not likely to be aborted and as a result, abortion of choice betters society.

In Conclusion:
I'm a pro-lifer on matters of morality and ethics. I believe that ultimately, the child's life outweighs the mother's. On matters of a better society, I believe subtle eugenics has its place. The trick is that being truly moral all the time can be harmful to society. Its the classic christian canundrum of Hell on Earth for an eternal Heaven after. But what if you're wrong, is it good to leave behind a difficult and painful world?

 

[Tsu]

So, how many kids have you adopted?

 

[Moonbear]

I once heard someone say that everyone who is trying to control the lives of others by outlawing abortion (or forcing them to go underground again - those were UGLY days!, as many women died - or even out of the country) should be the very ones who will love, care for, nurture and financially support (all the way through college) all of the unwanted children that would flood the orphanages. Not a bad idea, actually...

That's very much my view of it. Put your money where your mouth is. If you are pro-life, start adopting those children being born to people too irresponsible to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, because banning abortion won't make them any more responsible.

I only know one couple who has done just that. They adopted 7 children in addition to raising their two biological children, and I very much respect them for it.

 

[Gokul43201]

I won't comment on abortion as a tool to curb population growth, but I'd like to clarify the following :

Even after you factor in immigration and illegal immigration, the population of the US is stagnant. The last thing the US needs is to stem or curb population growth.

The United States has a population growth rate of about 1% per year (meaning the US population will double every 70 yrs. at this rate). This number is way higher than most other industrialized nations - most of Western Europe has a population growth that's three times lower. Most of the high population growth is in Islamic or third-world countries. Despite this, the US population growth is only slightly slower than the global growth rate of 1.3% per year.

 

[gerben]

I do not really see any problem in aborting until birth, and even not in killing babies shortly after birth. The thing that is being killed simply will not notice being killed, and the persons that should make something of it are apparently not willing to do so.

I think the main point in a discussion like this should be why one would think that it is wrong (unethical/unmoral/whatever) to abort. Can anyone that is against abortion please give a sound reason for that, other than that it is simply their personal preference to just let the fetuses grow?

 

[Gokul43201]

Isn't your question tantamount to saying "what's the big deal - I poisoned him in his asleep" ?

 

[member 5645]

I do not really see any problem in aborting until birth, and even not in killing babies shortly after birth. The thing that is being killed simply will not notice being killed, and the persons that should make something of it are apparently not willing to do so.

I think the main point in a discussion like this should be why one would think that it is wrong (unethical/unmoral/whatever) to abort. Can anyone that is against abortion please give a sound reason for that, other than that it is simply their personal preference to just let the fetuses grow?

I am going to go ahead and just let you clarify this. You don't have a problem with killing babies? Actual birthed, living legit babies?

 

[tumor]

Birth controll pills whatever, should be widely available to the teenage girls,young women and not restricted like in the USA.
And most important, SEX education MUST be taught in every school for at least 2 hours a day!
Responsible, educated people don't **** like monkeys.

 

[Gokul43201]

SEX education MUST be taught in every school for at least 2 hours a day!

I hope you're kidding, here.

 

[gerben]

Isn't your question tantamount to saying "what's the big deal - I poisoned him in his asleep" ?

No, allowing to kill sleeping people would be a problem because it would generate fear, we would be scared that someone might kill us while we are asleep. Such a fear would not be there yet in a new individual.

I am going to go ahead and just let you clarify this. You don't have a problem with killing babies? Actual birthed, living legit babies?

Well actually I think I would have a problem with that, but I wanted to make the point a bit strong. It is unclear to me until which stage it should be allowable.

 

[tumor]

I hope you're kidding, here.

No I'm not, and also I would scrap all the crap they teach about 10 commandments and murderous bible .Hypocrites.