Do you think my dog has wolf blood in her (DNA testing)

[Pleonasm]

My supposed malamute/golden eyes (75-25%)

Wolf eyes...

My dog again..

She exhibits several signs of characteristic wolf behavior including hypersensitivity to stimulus, is extremely skittish etc

Would you bet she has 5-10% actual wolf blood in her when the results are in?

 

[Pleonasm]

Another thing, other dogs, including american pitbulls, freak out when she gets dominant on them, if a fights break out. I have never seen those breed afraid or back down from anything. I'm talking about at least 3 occasions where these breeds freaked out.

 

[Vanadium 50]

What does "wolf blood" mean? Does your dog share genes with wolves? Certainly. Your dog shares genes with yeast.

 

[Pleonasm]

What does "wolf blood" mean? Does your dog share genes with wolves? Certainly. Your dog shares genes with yeast.

The same wolf blood found in crossings between dogs and wolfes. Are you suggesting wolf blood is undetectable?

 

[Rive]

You might wanna' google up 'wolfdog'. If you think it is 5-10% (third or fourth generation) then it is practically irrelevant, especially for a malamute.
However, expectations based on a DNA test might have a bad impact on your relations with your dog. Unless there are problems (which cannot be corrected by training) such tests are quite meaningless.

 

[Pleonasm]

You might wanna' google up 'wolfdog'. If you think it is 5-10% (third or fourth generation) then it is practically irrelevant, especially for a malamute.
However, expectations based on a DNA test might have a bad impact on your relations with your dog. Unless there are problems (which cannot be corrected by training) such tests are quite meaningless.

It would explain the behavior described. What do you think based on the pictures and gut feeling?

 

[Rive]

What do you think based on the pictures and gut feeling?

I think you are overthinking and overdoing this. Alpha dominance (both for males/females) is not exquisite to wolfs/wolfdogs, it happens to regular dogs as well.
As for the pictures - with dogs (and actually with any other pets) the first thing to learn is to forget (about the fur) and concentrate on behaviour.

Ps.: I have a gut feeling that originally Grumpy was a happy cat

 

[Pleonasm]

I think you are overthinking and overdoing this. Alpha dominance (both for males/females) are not exquisite to wolfs/wolfdogs, it happens to regular dogs as well.
As for the pictures - with dogs (and actually with any other pets) the first thing to learn is to forget (about the fur) and concentrate on behaviour.

I have consulted both Malamute and Golden Retriever breeders. Her hypersensitivity is not typical at all for either one. I want verification that it is indeed a 75-25% mix of Alaskan Malamute and Golden Retriever. I strongly doubt that is the case.

 

[Pleonasm]

I think you are overthinking and overdoing this. Alpha dominance (both for males/females) is not exquisite to wolfs/wolfdogs, it happens to regular dogs as well.
As for the pictures - with dogs (and actually with any other pets) the first thing to learn is to forget (about the fur) and concentrate on behaviour.

It's very rare for a "game" fighting dog breed provoking my dog, to retreat and show genuine fear, left shaking in the grass. The owner started to cry and thought mine was going to kill it.

 

[Rive]

"game" fighting dog

Well, it's actually not popular to have an 'alpha' fighting dog.
And being an 'alpha' is not about muscles or breed... (sorry )

 

[Pleonasm]

Well, it's actually not popular to have an 'alpha' fighting dog.
And being an 'alpha' is not about muscles or breed... (sorry )

Does it sound 100% doggy to you? I can't walk with her in a crowded city with noise. She almost collapses from the stimulus. Even a group of marathon joggers freak her out (lol)

 

[russ_watters]

The same wolf blood found in crossings between dogs and wolfes. Are you suggesting wolf blood is undetectable?

I think the point is that "wolf blood" isn"t a "thing". Where did you get that term? What do you think it means?

Genetically, YOU are about 80% wolf. So what does that tell us?

 

[Nugatory]

Does it sound 100% doggy to you? I can't walk with her in a crowded city with noise. She almost collapses from the stimulus. Even a group of marathon joggers freak her out (lol)

Sounds a lot like our dog, who is a boxer/basset/lab/chow mix by DNA testing.

"100% doggy" covers a very wide range of behaviors. Consider how wide a range of physical characteristics you would accept as 100% dog - from cocker spaniel to Saint Bernard. The span between the behavior you're describing and mellow-mutt behavior isn't any greater.

Do not underestimate the effect of early training/socialization either. A dog that is not exposed to a high-stimulus environment from an early age is unlikely to adjust happily to such an environment as an adult.

 

[Pleonasm]

I think the point is that "wolf blood" isn"t a "thing". Where did you get that term? What do you think it means?

Genetically, YOU are about 80% wolf. So what does that tell us?

Is wolf blood relatively recent in the family tree detectable or not?

 

[Pleonasm]

Do not underestimate the effect of early training/socialization either. A dog that is not exposed to a high-stimulus environment from an early age is unlikely to adjust happily to such an environment as an adult.

Do you think I would ask these questions if that was the case? I keep asking myself each time I make threads, why people by default assume complete idiocy. I mean really. Common now.

 

[Pleonasm]

Let's hypothesize for argument sake that I cross a purebred dog with a pure grey wolf, then conduct a DNA test. Would this test confirm the direct 50% wolf line blood or not?

 

[russ_watters]

Is wolf blood relatively recent in the family tree detectable or not?

Again: what do you think "wolf blood" means?

 

[Pleonasm]

Again: what do you think "wolf blood" means?

A recent crossing between a wolf and a dog.

 

[russ_watters]

Let's hypothesize for argument sake that I cross a purebred dog with a pure grey wolf, then conduct a DNA test. Would this test confirm the direct 50% wolf line blood or not?

So by "wolf blood" you really mean recent cross breeding. So could you please stop using the unscientific term "wolf blood"?

The answer, though, is probably yes: a DNA test could probably identify a recent cross-breeeding in the ancestors.

 

[Pleonasm]

So by "wolf blood" you really mean DNA overlap. Great. So could you please stop using the unscientific term "wolf blood"?

The answer, though, is probably yes: a DNA test could probably identify a recent cross-breeeding in the ancestors.

And just for fun sake, what would you guess is the case here going by the pictures and the description given? Do you think there is a recent crossbreeding at play here? If you had a gun to your head, what would you guess?

 

[Pleonasm]

The answer, though, is probably yes: a DNA test could probably identify a recent cross-breeeding in the ancestors.

Why only probably?

 

[Pleonasm]

So by "wolf blood" you really mean recent cross breeding. So could you please stop using the unscientific term "wolf blood"?

.

Which scientific term do you propose I use instead? The DNA structure of a given animal is constituted by blood.

 

[russ_watters]

And just for fun sake, what would you guess is the case here going by the pictures and the description given? Do you think there is a recent crossbreeding at play here? If you had a gun to your head, what would you guess?

I'm not a "dog person", but I would guess no. Some dogs are hyper and/or don't obey/play well with others. An ex of mine has a Boston terrier that gave such a hyper response to the slightest stimulus that she occasionally fainted! Apparently, that's just their "thing".

 

[russ_watters]

Which scientific term do you propose I use instead?

Recent cross-breeding or ancestry.

The DNA structure of a given animal is constituted by blood.

That sentence really doesn't make sense. DNA is the genetic coding in your cells. It has nothing, specifically, to do with blood.

I think there is a colloquial usage of similar terms like "bloodline" that is used in fiction media ("he has king's blood") to describe associations on a family tree. I'm not sure if it was actually used historically or what people who used it thought it meant.

All living things are literally relatives of each other and a lot of potentially interesting, yet unscientific and largely meaningless things can be said about the associations. E.G. if you are willing to go back enough generations, you could say everyone has "king's blood" and "wolf's blood" and "yeast's blood" even though yeast doesn't have blood.

 

[Pleonasm]

Recent cross-breeding or ancestry.

Is there recent cross-breeeding in my dog? Why not: is there recent wolf DNA in my dog?

 

[russ_watters]

Is there recent cross-breeeding in my dog? Why not: is there recent wolf DNA in my dog?

Because DNA doesn't change much, so there is no way to know how recent/old a segment of DNA is. But you can estimate based on percent similarity overall.

If you flip the second one over it makes more sense: "was wolf DNA recently added to my dog's ancestry?" But then DNA is kind of redundant: "does my dog have any recent wolf ancestry?"

 

[Pleonasm]

Because DNA doesn't change much, so there is no way to know how recent/old a segment of DNA is. But you can estimate based on percent similarity overall.

If you flip the second one over it makes more sense: "was wolf DNA recently added to my dog's ancestry?" But then DNA is kind of redundant: "does my dog have any recent wolf ancestry?"

But again, why do you say that a DNA test would probably identify an offspring from a timber wolf and a dog? How could it not, if it's that recent?

 

[russ_watters]

But again, why do you say that a DNA test would probably identify an offspring from a timber wolf and a dog?

I think - though am not certain - that because the DNA you get from your parents both overlaps and is not exactly a 50/50 split, it gets harder and harder to identify specific ancestors the further back you go.

...[google]... Yeah:

From Ancestry.com:

Enough DNA is shared with closer relatives that genealogical relationships can be determined with a higher degree of accuracy based on DNA, but because we don’t necessarily inherit DNA from ancestors in the precise percentages one might expect (25% from each grandparent, 12.5% from each great-grandparent, and so forth), and because our genealogical cousins don’t receive exactly the same DNA as we do from our common ancestors, determining exact relationships via DNA becomes less feasible the more distant the genealogical relationship is. Percentages of DNA shared between relatives at the 4th cousin level and beyond may signify any number of distant relationships, but the genealogical relationships are unlikely to be closer than six degrees from the test taker.

https://support.ancestry.com/s/article/DNA-Match-Relationships#viewing

...and of course, for that level of accuracy is possible from testing the actual family members.

 

[Pleonasm]

I think - though am not certain - that because the DNA you get from your parents both overlaps and is not exactly a 50/50 split, it gets harder and harder to identify specific ancestors the further back you go.

...[google]... Yeah:

From Ancestry.com:

https://support.ancestry.com/s/article/DNA-Match-Relationships#viewing

...and of course, for that level of accuracy is possible from testing the actual family members.

Wouldn't this then likely exclude the findings I'm looking for? The crossbreeding that I suspected took place was perhaps third or forth generation. And yes, I 100% believe this can affect/be expressed in a later dogs behavior, far-fetched as it might seem. Crappy if my theory is unfalsifiable...

 

[Pleonasm]

Or proposition, I should say. It isn't much of a theory to propose that a wolf and a dog mated.

 

[Pleonasm]

I'm not a "dog person", but I would guess no. Some dogs are hyper and/or don't obey/play well with others. An ex of mine has a Boston terrier that gave such a hyper response to the slightest stimulus that she occasionally fainted! Apparently, that's just their "thing".

I guess it would also be a pure probability concideration. Even though the seller in this case was shady and could have gotten her parents from anybody (no documentation) it is still most likely that these breeders used dogs only for simplicity sake.

 

[Rive]

Does it sound 100% doggy to you? I can't walk with her in a crowded city with noise. She almost collapses from the stimulus. Even a group of marathon joggers freak her out (lol)

It might not match your expectations, but still within the range of 'dog'.

Wolf//dog crossbreeds are rare, but due the prestige of the 'wolf' part they do have a publicity.
Inbreeding is an everyday practice, with a big silence around it.
Trauma is just not really recognized as 'valid' for dogs.

So, unless you are from an area where both wild wolfs and dogs living close to the wild are frequent, I would cry (in order of probability):
- inbreeding
- some early trauma
- bad luck
- unknown
- more unknown
- wolf

Anyway, when/if you have result please let us know.

 

[Pleonasm]

It might not match your expectations, but still within the range of 'dog'.

Wolf//dog crossbreeds are rare, but due the prestige of the 'wolf' part they do have a publicity.
Inbreeding is an everyday practice, with a big silence around it.
Trauma is just not really recognized as 'valid' for dogs.

So, unless you are from an area where both wild wolfs and dogs living close to the wild are frequent, I would cry (in order of probability):
- inbreeding
- some early trauma
- bad luck
- unknown
- more unknown
- wolf

Anyway, when/if you have result please let us know.

The breeder lives out in the country. Here's momma who recently was put to sleep.

 

[Pleonasm]

We are based in a Sweden but the malamute mother and the mixed breed father (50/50 mal/golden) are both foreign.

 

[Pleonasm]

I have a question relevant to this discussion. If it's hard to distinguish wolf DNA from dogs, how in the world do they genetically distinguish different dog breeds from each other?

Leaving aside appearence. Let's pretend we are alla empirically blind for the sake of it and can only evaluate DNA structures

 

[BillTre]

actual wolf blood

Your use of the term "wolf blood" in a scientific forum is going to repeatedly going to run into problems because the first thing someone is going to think of is acutal blood.
What you seem to intend to discuss however is the inheritance of the dog-wolf hybrid from the wolf.
By using the term "wolf blood" you have created misdirection.

The DNA structure of a given animal is constituted by blood.

This is not a good way to discuss this.
Even if you are taking the term "wolf blood" to mean inheritance in the genetic sense,
a person, novice to genetics, might take the statement literally and try to change their dog's genetics by transfusing wolf blood into them.

The only reasonable interpretation is inheritance or

Recent cross-breeding or ancestry.

A first generation hybrid (50% wolf derived DNA) should be expected to be detectable by even a simple DNA test, if it is directed at answering that question.
Better quality (more sensitive tests, covering more genetic markers, directed to a more specific question) would cost more.
Complete sequencing of the genome combined with a competent analysis would be the ideal, but more expensive.
Crosses among 50% hybrid wolf-dogs would yield animals that would be (on average!) 50% wolf.
Crosses to pure non-dogs would reduce (on average!) reduce the % wolf DNA by .5; thus 50% would become 35% the next generation and 25% would be come 12.5% (on average). These are only averages due to variability in how much DNA from either grandparent is packaged into the particular gametes that become the zygote.
Crossing to a wolf each generation would do the opposite.

If it's hard to distinguish wolf DNA from dogs, how in the world do they genetically distinguish different dog breeds from each other?

It has to do with how detailed the test is and how carefully it is analyzed.
There have been studies on the lineages of different dog strains. They probably used a lot of markers, perhaps complete genome sequences. These tests would be more expensive and difficult than a home kit.
Examples going the other way, but from a slightly different field, include the many "species" of morphologically similar appearing animals (or plants?) that DNA analysis reveals to be separate species.

To sum up some of the above arguments:
Trying to make genetic arguments based only on a handful of behavioral traits is an approach that is compromised by its many potential confounding factors (individual genetic variation, individual upbringing, variation among strains).
Too many uncontrolled factors with too few cases to tease everything apart.

 

[Pleonasm]

To sum up some of the above arguments:
Trying to make genetic arguments based only on a handful of behavioral traits is an approach that is compromised by its many potential confounding factors (individual genetic variation, individual upbringing, variation among strains).
Too many uncontrolled factors with too few cases to tease everything apart.

That's why I consulted prolific breeders of both breeds. The attributes described were completely foreign to them, in any litter of puppies they've had for decades. Add to that sharp breeds being afraid when mine snaps.. Ask any farmer how their dog responds to a wolf and it is consistent with this. I had a pitbull/rotweiller breed that growled like a monster, until mine jumped it. No damage done that time.

 

[Pleonasm]

When I just got her home as a puppy she never cried, never cuddled. Complete absence of dog behavior. No separation anxiety.

Does not even adress me when I come home unless she's bored.

Malamutes are not like this. They are a quite affectionate to their owner and generally hate being alone and howl

 

[Pleonasm]

Is it possible that I have a Malamute/Golden mix that is just one tough, independent cookie? I guess.. But if you look at it cumulatively, it's highly suspect, and a DNA test is warranted.

 

[DennisN]

Your dog shares genes with yeast.

Which must mean that I share genes with yeast.
Now I finally understand why mom told me to use deodorant.

 

[Pleonasm]

Now the DNA test available, as far as I understand, is a basic saliva package test and shipment to a lab. Do I need to report for them to search for recent wolf ancestry specifically?

 

[Pleonasm]

 

[256bits]

When I just got her home as a puppy she never cried, never cuddled. Complete absence of dog behavior. No separation anxiety.

Does not even adress me when I come home unless she's bored.

Malamutes are not like this. They are a quite affectionate to their owner and generally hate being alone and howl

Behaviorial difference than the general population!
What about her siblings - same behavior?

Whose the alpha in the family - you or her.
( Of course you will say you - ask her ? and you may get a different answer )

I would consult with a dog trainer before breeders.
Breeders sell a product, and show bias.

 

[Pleonasm]

Behaviorial difference than the general population!
What about her siblings - same behavior?

Whose the alpha in the family - you or her.
( Of course you will say you - ask her ? and you may get a different answer )

I would consult with a dog trainer before breeders.
Breeders sell a product, and show bias.

What does my leadership have to do with her innate independence? Dog trainers have very limited experiences with Alaskan Malamutes.

 

[256bits]

What does my leadership have to do with her innate independence? Dog trainers have very limited experiences with Alaskan Malamutes.

Your dog and you are in a pack, even if it is a pack of two, and
Who is the leader - you or the dog? in a particular situation.
That;s the question I was posing.
What picked that for me is that she does not address you when you come home.
She might be waiting for you to show your allegiance, hence the aloofness.

And by trainer, I do not mean one that gets here to fetch a ball and do trick and jump hoops, but one that show her who is the boss.
Boss is fluidic, depending upon the scenario.
She wants to play, you don't, but play anyways - she's the boss in this situation. She'll ask and want the same next time.
She wants to sit on her best end of the couch and you let her, she's the boss in that situation. She'll want the same next time.
Etc. etc.
No such thing as an alpha dog in all situations.
You probably already may know all that.

This probably explains it all in good fashion.
Ultimate and absolute alpha dog is probably a myth the way many people have transferred the actions of wild animals to domestic.

If you do a DNA test, and do find that she has wolf "blood", then what.
Not so sure about the send away kits as being 100% reliable anyways.
http://news.vin.com/vinnews.aspx?articleId=23206
That's from 2012. How much improvement since then I have no clue.
Some errors do crop in, as it is not exact.
Malamute has to be in their data base to show up.
And wolf also.

 

[Pleonasm]

From her experience, Roberts would not recommend DNA testing to determine breed. “I don’t think the test really tells us anything more than we can tell just by looking at the dog and making a guess,” she said. “Since I got different results even with the same company, it makes me pretty skeptical.”

Interesting..

 

[BillTre]

Do I need to report for them to search for recent wolf ancestry specifically?

If you do choose to try a DNA typing process, it would probably benefit you to contact the company.
Ask in detail what they test for.
Ask then specifically about what you are interested in finding out. You may find they can be more specific or focused in the process they use and how they analyze the results. It may cost more however.

 

[romsofia]

This brings back memories of when I was a kid and had two malamute/german shepard mix. You should have read more into the breed because these dogs are very aggressive towards other dogs.My sister had the more aggressive one and he would ALWAYS fight a dog once, but once he won he'd usually not bother that dog again. Through the 10 years I had him and his brother, the more aggressive one had the brother hospitalized twice... and I never saw him lose a fight either, even as he got older. Some dogs are just meaner than others. It's good you recognize this in your dog as well! We would never bring him to any social events with other dogs (no dog parks for sure), because we knew he would want to fight at some point. Walks were fine.

However, when I was younger, I thought of them as wolfdogs as well, because they would hunt like a pack (we added a golden retriever later on, and after they killed something, the golden would carry it back to us). They even got into a fight with a porcupine once, though I think they lost because both of them came back with their snouts filled with the needles. My parents did well with the "alpha" one because they were never human aggressive, but towards other animals they'd always make sure they got their way.

And to this day, I'd like to think they were wolfdogs! Even if my logic says they probably weren't (after reading about malamutes). I think at the end of the day, believe what you want! Your dog being a wolfdog or not really doesn't matter, just show them love and affection because they aren't on this planet for long!

 

[Pleonasm]

This brings back memories of when I was a kid and had two malamute/german shepard mix. You should have read more into the breed because these dogs are very aggressive towards other dogs.My sister had the more aggressive one and he would ALWAYS fight a dog once, but once he won he'd usually not bother that dog again. Through the 10 years I had him and his brother, the more aggressive one had the brother hospitalized twice... and I never saw him lose a fight either, even as he got older. Some dogs are just meaner than others. It's good you recognize this in your dog as well! We would never bring him to any social events with other dogs (no dog parks for sure), because we knew he would want to fight at some point. Walks were fine.

However, when I was younger, I thought of them as wolfdogs as well, because they would hunt like a pack (we added a golden retriever later on, and after they killed something, the golden would carry it back to us). They even got into a fight with a porcupine once, though I think they lost because both of them came back with their snouts filled with the needles. My parents did well with the "alpha" one because they were never human aggressive, but towards other animals they'd always make sure they got their way.

And to this day, I'd like to think they were wolfdogs! Even if my logic says they probably weren't (after reading about malamutes). I think at the end of the day, believe what you want! Your dog being a wolfdog or not really doesn't matter, just show them love and affection because they aren't on this planet for long!

Probably the German Shepherd in it, not the Mal. GSD tend to be very dog aggressive.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

It can be that you're dog does not respect you in the master/servant relationship. Maybe you did not socialize the dog adequately , or did not properly train it. Maybe you are trying to socialize it, in a manner that can be too overly stimulating to the dog. I have been training dogs since I could remember. My father grew up on a farm, and always kept a few dogs, mostly German Shepards. Dogs are like children, they each have their own distinct personality. Some breeds are known for common characteristics and behavior patterns. However, this is not the end all be all.

My favorite dog I had the pleasure of owning was a German Shepard named Xochitl. The dog was not affectionate at all, it lived with 3 other dogs, and never once played with the others. The only interaction she would have with the others, was correcting their behavior she deemed inappropriate by the other dogs. I could walk her without a leash, listened on command, and was a joy to play with. She would sit by feet while I would be reading, pretending she did not want to be petted only to smile sing. This was the only affection she portrayed towards me. But she would only allow me to walk her, groom her, and feed her. Best dog I ever had.

Some dogs just dislike certain things, just like humans do. That is ok. Unless the behavior is hazardous towards you're well being and the well being of others...