Electric field in leaky capacitor model

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the electric field in a leaky capacitor model, considering factors such as relative permittivity, conductivity, and the influence of AC and DC sources. Participants explore theoretical and practical aspects of the electric field in this context, including equations and modeling approaches.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express uncertainty about how to calculate the electric field in a leaky capacitor, particularly when influenced by AC and DC sources.
  • There is a suggestion that if the capacitor is not connected to a power supply, leakage would result in it being nearly empty, while connection to a power supply would maintain the voltage equal to that of the supply.
  • Participants discuss the role of relative permittivity in affecting capacitance, with a formula provided: C = kε0A/d.
  • One participant proposes modeling the leakage as a resistor in parallel with the capacitor but expresses confusion about integrating this into the electric field equation.
  • There is a question about how to incorporate conductivity into the electric field calculations, especially in the context of a leaky capacitor.
  • Some participants note that the "leakiness" of the capacitor may not affect the electric field unless the AC source has a moderate source impedance, which could lower the voltage across the capacitor.
  • One participant suggests using the integral of electric current over time to derive charge and subsequently calculate the electric field from that charge.
  • There is a request for clarification on how to write equations that include both conductivity and relative permittivity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correct approach to calculating the electric field in a leaky capacitor. Multiple competing views and uncertainties about the role of various factors remain evident throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants express confusion regarding the integration of different parameters into the electric field equations, particularly the relationship between conductivity, relative permittivity, and the effects of AC and DC sources. There are unresolved mathematical steps and dependencies on definitions that are not clarified.

Artyman
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Hi everyone.
I need to calculate E-field(AC source / DC/ point charges) in leaky capacitor( epsilonr= a dielectric with relative permittivity and finite conductivity). But I do not how to calculate or write the equations for them. any idea or reference is very welcome.
 
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Artyman said:
Hi everyone.
I need to calculate E-field(AC source / DC/ point charges) in leaky capacitor( epsilonr= a dielectric with relative permittivity and finite conductivity). But I do not how to calculate or write the equations for them. any idea or reference is very welcome.
If the capacitor is not connected to a power supply, then the leakage means that it will be almost empty.
If it is connected to a power supply, the voltage on the capacitor is equal to that of the supply.
The strength of the electric field is equal to the voltage divided by the spacing, in Volts per metre.
 
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tech99 said:
If the capacitor is not connected to a power supply, then the leakage means that it will be almost empty.
If it is connected to a power supply, the voltage on the capacitor is equal to that of the supply.
The strength of the electric field is equal to the voltage divided by the spacing, in Volts per metre.
Thank you for your response.
The leaky capacitor is connected to the current source (AC) via two metal electrodes. But How does the conductivity and relative permitivvity play the roles in this scenario?
 
The relative permittivity effects the capacitance...

C = kε0A/d

Perhaps you can model the leakage as a resistor in parallel with the capacitor?
 
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CWatters said:
The relative permittivity effects the capacitance...

C = kε0A/d

Perhaps you can model the leakage as a resistor in parallel with the capacitor?
Thank you for your response.
The problem is I got confused to use the equations...to include the resistor( in parallel ) in electric field equation...
I came to the idea to use integral of the electric current ( AC , sine ) over a time duration ( like t1 to t2) which can give me the Q , this current source is connected to the leaky capacitor, then assume this Q is point charge. Then I can calculate the E-field of this point charge in the capacitor.
But the problem is:
If I assume this is a perfect dielectric (capacitor): E=Q/(4*Pi*epsilon0*epsilonr)... is not that true?
In this case how can I consider the ( conductivity) of the capacitor in this equation...I need a leaky capacitor model ..which equation and formula would work?.
 
Artyman said:
The leaky capacitor is connected to the current source (AC) via two metal electrodes. But How does the conductivity and relative permitivvity play the roles in this scenario?
The "leakiness" of the capacitor does not affect the electric field, unless your AC source has a moderate source impedance. That would lower the voltage across the cap, which would lower the electric field.

As mentioned previously, the E-field in a capacitor is just the voltage divided by the spacing (at least when you are inside the capacitor away from the edges). Can you say more about what you are trying to do and why?
Artyman said:
which equation and formula would work?.
Looks like you have a stuck keyboard key... :wink:
 
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berkeman said:
The "leakiness" of the capacitor does not affect the electric field, unless your AC source has a moderate source impedance. That would lower the voltage across the cap, which would lover the electric field.

As mentioned previously, the E-field in a capacitor is just the voltage divided by the spacing (at least when you are inside the capacitor away from the edges). Can you say more about what you are trying to do and why?

Looks like you have a stuck keyboard key... :wink:
I think my keyboard does have problem. Since, I cannot edit the post. Please accept my apology.
Thanks
 
No worries. Do my comments about the source impedance and the Electric field make sense? Can you post a diagram of what you are trying to model?

Anything like this?

http://www.physics.louisville.edu/cldavis/phys299/notes/elec_cap_fig1.jpg
elec_cap_fig1.jpg
 
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berkeman said:
No worries. Do my comments about the source impedance and the Electric field make sense? Can you post a diagram of what you are trying to model?

Anything like this?

http://www.physics.louisville.edu/cldavis/phys299/notes/elec_cap_fig1.jpg
View attachment 208728
Thank you for your response.
in this case if assume :
the leaky capacitor is a circle and on two different pints (two electrodes) .with leaky capacitor it seems to me the charges can flow through the capacitor. this makes me confused.
(I=sin(w1*t))
1)Can you please let me know if you want to write the equations( respect to x-y directions). what would you write?
2)would you include conductivity and relative permittivity together? and how to write the electric field equations(say which formula)?
thanks
 

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