Electrical Services: Installing Lighting & L1/L2 Feeds

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The discussion centers on the installation of lighting from a three-phase board, specifically the practice of connecting L1 and L2 feeds in the same switch box. Concerns are raised about whether this is safe or standard practice, with some participants emphasizing the importance of proper training and supervision in electrical work. It is clarified that while connecting lighting to two phases can be acceptable, it is crucial to ensure that the switch de-energizes the device properly. The conversation also highlights the significance of understanding electrical codes and the potential risks involved in miswiring. Overall, the thread underscores the need for caution and adherence to safety standards in electrical installations.
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I have been installing lighting from a 3 phase board. The wiring schematic has instructed me to place an l1 and l2 feed into the same switch box. Is this not bad practise? Would it be better to put 2 L1 feeds to it instead? Therefore there would only be 230v at the switch. Also , am i correct in assuming the potential across 2 L1 feeds would in fact be 0?
 
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why are you dealing with these sort of electrical situations if you don't know what you are doing ??

Have you not received training for such ?
Why are you not under the supervision of some one qualified to work on these systems ?

A forum like this ISNT the place to be asking these sorts of questions

Regards
Dave
 
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brenfox said:
... am i correct in assuming the potential across 2 L1 feeds would in fact be 0?
Yes. However it's difficult to run something across two lines with the same phase.
 
Answer to first question is yes, i do know what i am doing.
Answer to second question is yes, i have received training for such. This is why i am questioning what my engineer has instructed me to do.
Answer to third question is no, i am not under the supervision of anyone because i am more than capable AND competent to do the job.
Lastly, thank you for your response. I apologise for my apparent ignorance of my post and the wasting of your valuable time. Good day.
 
brenfox said:
Answer to first question is yes, i do know what i am doing.
Answer to second question is yes, i have received training for such. This is why i am questioning what my engineer has instructed me to do.
Answer to third question is no, i am not under the supervision of anyone because i am more than capable AND competent to do the job.
Lastly, thank you for your response. I apologise for my apparent ignorance of my post and the wasting of your valuable time. Good day.
Before throwing the toys out of your pram, perhaps you should re-read your original question. It really doesn't look like it's from someone who knows as much as you claim to know. Imo, Dave's response was about right.
Did you mean "2 L1 feeds" or One :1 feed and a neutral?
 
It might be okay if voltage between phases is less than 300 volts.

See NEC 404-8(B)

and here's a couple articles that might relate to your installation

http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/voltage-between-adjacent-devices

http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/048148a.pdf

It'd be worth spending a couple hours in the code book, maybe at home.

A fellow named "Mike Holt" runs a site dedicated to answering practical code questions like yours.

It's desirable to have lighting split among different phases so loss of one phase doesn't put everybody in the dark. But you haven't given much detail.old jim.
 
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To answer your first question, it's not bad practice, assuming you're using some kind of 2 pole single throw switch (DPST). The important thing is that a switch must de-energize a device. In cases where the device only uses a single phase and a neutral you only have the break the phase and can leave the neutral connected to the device since it should be at 0 Volts.

It's perfectly normal to connect lighting to two phases because phase-to-phase voltage is higher than phase-to-neutral voltage. If you use a higher voltage the lights will draw less current. This saves energy from losses in wires as well as money spent on wire.

Be safe and keep asking questions.
 
Okefenokee said:
To answer your first question, it's not bad practice, assuming you're using some kind of 2 pole single throw switch (DPST). The important thing is that a switch must de-energize a device. In cases where the device only uses a single phase and a neutral you only have the break the phase and can leave the neutral connected to the device since it should be at 0 Volts.

It's perfectly normal to connect lighting to two phases because phase-to-phase voltage is higher than phase-to-neutral voltage. If you use a higher voltage the lights will draw less current. This saves energy from losses in wires as well as money spent on wire.

Be safe and keep asking questions.
The lights must have the appropriate working voltage of course.
Is the connection of lights across two phases standard practice? If so, which country? I don't think it's done in the UK.
 
jim hardy said:
It might be okay if voltage between phases is less than 300 volts.

See NEC 404-8(B)

and here's a couple articles that might relate to your installation

http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/voltage-between-adjacent-devices

http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/048148a.pdf

It'd be worth spending a couple hours in the code book, maybe at home.

A fellow named "Mike Holt" runs a site dedicated to answering practical code questions like yours.

It's desirable to have lighting split among different phases so loss of one phase doesn't put everybody in the dark. But you haven't given much detail.


old jim.

You're talking here about redundancy (?): a good idea. You aren't talking about connection between phases - are you?

I still don't get what the OP is actually describing in his statements about connections to phases.
 
  • #10
My first question would be, what voltage are the lights rated for?
 
  • #11
It's very common in the US sophie. Not in residential, which is single phase, but in commercial and industrial services that are 3-phase. Office and warehouse lights sold in the US tend to have ballasts (transformers) that can be tapped for 120, 208, 277, or 480V supplies.

Basically you buy a ton of them and have some electricians go through them all and set them up for the correct voltage then go to town installing them.

The circuit usually draws too much current for any kind of basic wall switch so you have to install a contactor that engages the lights. A basic wall switch can then turn the contactor on and off. Some people go the cheap route and just put a mini-switchgear in the electrical vault to turn the lights on and off.

Brenfox is probably wiring up a contactor for his engineer.
 
  • #12
sophiecentaur said:
You're talking here about redundancy (?): a good idea. You aren't talking about connection between phases - are you?

Yes, redundancy. Myself, i'd only connect lights phase to neutral so as to avoid backfeeds when you lose a phase. Every room should have some lights from different phases.


I still don't get what the OP is actually describing in his statements about connections to phases.

Nor do i.
It'd be well for bren to brush up on the relevant sections of electrical code and educate his engineer, if necessary.

Could be he just assumed engineering school teaches practical matters like NEC.
I sure never had such a course.
Young engineers new to industry need to be taken under the wing of an old hand. I had a most excellent mentor. Our electricians and mechanics were always happy to answer my questions about the practical side of things.

old jim
 
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  • #13
Before anyone goes jumping to conclusions here you don't even know if the OP is working with live wires or will even be the one doing the connections once the wires are pulled into the boxes. I have known electricians who send their teenage kids out to the job-site to pull wires into conduit. Guess what? There is no power on the site. Later on when all the wires are pulled in someone qualified makes the connections in each box.

When the first response after the original post is this:

why are you dealing with these sort of electrical situations if you don't know what you are doing ??

Quite frankly I don't blame the OP for telling this forum to f*** off. It has always appeared to me that there are very few who post on here who have any real experience in actual electrician work. Oh yeah there are some of you who added an outlet or maybe even a whole circuit in their basement but compared to the project it seems the OP is handling you don't have a clue.

Edit: That is not to say there is no one here that knows anything about it, just typically not the ones who yell the loudest.
 
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  • #14
I just had a thought that might help you on your second question Bren.

A voltage measurement is always the difference between two points.

At first that might seem like a subtle point but it's crucial.

Consider this example:

You're troubleshooting an outlet so you measure the voltage between the hot and neutral. You measure 0V so you think it's safe to open the outlet and inspect it. You get electrocuted. What do you think happened? The neutral was connected to the same phase as the hot! The difference between the phase and neutral is 0V because they're at the same potential but the difference from ground to neutral or hot was still 120V.

That's a true story. Investigating this I found that an electrician had connected the neutral to a 3-pole breaker in the panel in order to make a special 3-phase outlet in another part of the building. The electrician either didn't know or didn't care that the neutral also connected to two regular 120V outlets. So one outlet had 0V from phase to neutral and another had 208V. That 208V outlet burned up plenty of tools before I was called to look at it.

If I had measured the neutral to ground I would have immediately seen that it was energized. I could have used an NCV too (non-contact voltage tester). Keep one in your tool bag or your pocket. They only cost 10 to 15 bucks. It was totally my fault that I got zapped.
 
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  • #15
You could argue that this forum is not the vehicle for 'discussing' matters that are as clear cut as Wiring Regs. 'The Book' says it all.
 
  • #16
sophiecentaur said:
You could argue that this forum is not the vehicle for 'discussing' matters that are as clear cut as Wiring Regs. 'The Book' says it all.

Not really. There are many places the 'book' is not that clear. Go here:
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http://forums.mikeholt.com/
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If everything was as clear cut as you claim then those message boards would not exist.
 
  • #17
Averagesupernova said:
Not really. There are many places the 'book' is not that clear. Go here:

-

http://forums.mikeholt.com/

-

If everything was as clear cut as you claim then those message boards would not exist.
You have a point but your link is the sort of forum to post such specialist queries. PF will give you much better and reliable explanations than the purely practical groups (on which you can read total scientific rubbish).
But don't expect PF contributors to know about part numbers and all abbreviations. That's not the Physics of the situation.
 
  • #18
Averagesupernova said:
Not really. There are many places the 'book' is not that clear. Go here:
-
http://forums.mikeholt.com/
-
If everything was as clear cut as you claim then those message boards would not exist.

I don't think I'd trust anyone to install lighting in my home or office who thought the lights would run with an electric potential of 0.
 
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  • #19
Then you would be really disappointed if you went to a job site and talked to the young apprentices.

Electrical work isn't all Ohm's law and circuit theory. Apprentices start with making good pipe bends and pulling wire. Proper securement and good construction is every bit as important as knowing what conductance is. Apprentices learn as they go from their journeymen and masters who watch everything they do and answer all their questions.

It's actually pretty hard to achieve a journeyman license. It takes four years of on-the-job training in many places. It also requires some night classes and a tough electrical code test around here. It takes about 6 to 10 years to achieve a good masters license (in a state with high standards).

Believe it or not the system produces some pretty talented tradesmen and tradeswomen. It's well worth putting up with a few newbie questions.
 
  • #20
There is no evidence here of the OP's qualifications. We have a question that (IMO, speaking as an engineer with no electrical training, but a lot of life experience reading between the lines and a BS filter that works pretty well) gives me the clear impression the OP doesn't understand the basics of what he/she is doing, otherwise the question wouldn't be necessary.

And the OP's next post (again IMO) is the classic example of the well known engineering equation

over-confidence in one's knowledge and ability + arrogant attitude = accident waiting to happen.

I don't know what is the US equivalent of the UK expression "cowboy electrician," but I don't believe you don't have any on your side of the Atllantic.
 
  • #21
Aleph, it is clear to me that you don't understand what happens in the USA concerning electrical work in the manner that the OP is working. Okefenokee covered it pretty well. The OP is probably very well trained and capable of doing what he is supposed to be doing. What he is NOT supposed to be doing is designing the plan from square one. He is simply questioning something that is not part of his job. If this guy worked for me I would commend him for questioning things instead of shrugging it off. Read my previous post in this thread. I still stand by it 100%.
 
  • #22
BrenFox, If you return and choose to reply to this tread, please report it to get reopened. I am closing it because you have not responded.
 
  • #23
Thread has been reopened.

Zz.
 
  • #24
Before i begin, what i will say is my OP could have been worded better. My wiring diagram showed 2 phases going into a 230volt 6 way grid switch, which was servicing 2 banks of lights on 2 separate feeds. This would equate to 415 volts at the switch. This, in my opinion is bad practise. The Regs was not helping on this matter so i decided to post it on here. In hindsight maybe this was a mistake to do so, but as a relative newcomer i was not sure on the protocol regarding what should and should not be discussed on here. I responded to Davnn curt comments with curt answers, which contrary to "expert" opinion i was not throwing my toys out. His comment was not helpful in the least except to try and make me feel stupid and incompetent. As a grown adult i simply will not put up with somebody speaking to me in this manner. Seeing as though you are all keen to know my qualification background i will inform you that i am a 17th edition qualified electrician with an ONC in electrical engineering who is currently studying for an HND at open university. I was sceptical about posting my questions on this site for a fear of being made to feel stupid. There seems to be a certain arrogance and a "you should know that" attitude with some people on here. Puts adult learners off from using this site.
 
  • #25
Did you put in a neutral line and not mention it? because with two of the same feed, you've got 0 power.
 
  • #26
Yes there are two separate neutrals for the 2 feeds. Everything works fine but my point to the engineer is that i do not like putting 2 feeds into the same switch box from different phases because there could be a potential of 415volts in the switch box when the switch box is only rated at 230 volts. What i wanted to do was take a line from L1 and another line from L1 on the 3 phase dis board, this would result in only 230 volts at the switch box. I have done an amp check on the incoming feeds and they are balanced so taking 2 L1 feeds do not upset the equilibrium if you know what i mean!
 
  • #27
Alephzero, your BS filter is faulty. Comparing me to a cowboy because of one poorly written post is both ignorant and insulting. Yet another example of an arrogant know it all. If you are an engineer with no electrical training then why are you commenting on an electrical question??
 
  • #28
Yes there are two separate neutrals for the 2 feeds.
ah. its not necessarily given that the neutrals were included and 3-phase doesn't necessarily include a neutral line, hence the confusion.

If you had a 3 story office building, and put one phase on each floor, but the 3rd floor works late every night, you'd have an unbalanced load. I can see the value of putting multiple phases into each switch box. As to whether that is standard industry practice, this is not the best place for that kind of question.
 
  • #29
Yes i have realized to my detriment that this type of question is not suited to these forums!
 
  • #30
brenfox said:
Yes there are two separate neutrals for the 2 feeds. Everything works fine but my point to the engineer is that i do not like putting 2 feeds into the same switch box from different phases because there could be a potential of 415volts in the switch box when the switch box is only rated at 230 volts. What i wanted to do was take a line from L1 and another line from L1 on the 3 phase dis board, this would result in only 230 volts at the switch box. I have done an amp check on the incoming feeds and they are balanced so taking 2 L1 feeds do not upset the equilibrium if you know what i mean!

Your original question, which was
Is this not bad practise?
is a good one.

NEC link i posted requires a physical barrier between switches if there's more than 300 volts between them. That's to protect flesh. But it says 'snap switches".
I am NOT an expert in code, and i don't know what your switches look like , but the links i posted should help you start figuring out whether your engineer has stayed within code. I didn't know about that 300 volt requirement before looking into your question.
I believe there are also requirements for color coding or marking the phases, too, and their neutrals if not all from same panel. Fortunately the code is well cross referenced. I'd have to spend at least a couple hours reading , probably you are more NEC-literate than I.

Keep your engineer out of trouble. My technicians used to tell me "Go calculate something while we take care of this."
We helped one another by sharing our strengths. If your engineer has any sense he'll appreciate your cross-checking . Keeps you both out of trouble.

Is that 415 volts line to line, or a line to Earth ?

I'd be curious to hear what you find .

old jim
 
  • #31
brenfox said:
Yes i have realized to my detriment that this type of question is not suited to these forums!
Likewise, technical and Physics questions would not necessarily get useful replies on an 'electricians' forum.
I thought the regs were clear on the Original question regarding the need for double pole isolation. Isn't that the main point, when you get down to it?
 
  • #32
There is no physical barrier inside the switch to separate the two line feeds. It is 415v line to line. This is where the theory and the practical fuse together, which happens frequently in my line of work. The 2 feeds are working independently from each other on a separate circuit breaker servicing lights operating at a voltage of 230volts. So theoretically speaking all is well. But in a practical situation there is a "potential" of 415v inside the 230v rated switch! Maybe i am splitting hairs on this one!
 
  • #33
Double pole isolation is not a requirement on a 230v lighting circuit. The neutral does not need to be switched. So long as you run a separate neutral with every line feed you will not receive a neutral shock.
 
  • #34
brenfox said:
Double pole isolation is not a requirement on a 230v lighting circuit. The neutral does not need to be switched. So long as you run a separate neutral with every line feed you will not receive a neutral shock.
OK, so what type of switch would be used? A double pole? In UK, that would be a LN switch, for feeding a Power circuit.
I know you can buy all sorts of switches but this one would be pretty non- standard in the UK for a mains installation.
 
  • #35
Although it may seem obvious to you, it must be considered that folks elsewhere might not inherently understand terms like "6 way grid switch" or find it implicit that 230v circuits are line to neutral loads. It's not neccessarily your fault, but maybe it will help put in perspective some of the views of a lack of knowledge on what you're doing.

I'm unsure of where you are installing or whether the NEC is a statute or standard, let alone which revision (updated every 3 years). Jim's post is right on when it comes to installs covered in NEC 404, but this deals with voltages between terminals and although I'm probably unfamiliar with the equipment in question it sounds like you're concerned with too great a potential between lines within the switch, not between terminals of a separate swtich?

From my experience (maybe comparable to yours, only in USA), most devices, conductors, boxes and other general materials come in either a 50v class for low voltage or power limited systems which never see mains power, or a 600v class, which is used for normal building wiring even on systems such as 120v line to neutral. Rarely you will run into conductors with insulation ratings of 300v, I'm sure I've seen it (fixture wires?) but it is uncommon. Make no mistake, using a 120v rated switch on a 277v or 347v circuit will swiftly end its utility value as a means for controlling a circuit, however connecting 480v line to line across a residential grade switch is not going to result in, say, energizing every other switch in the box as the excessive voltage "bleeds" out of the misapplied switch.

In doing some research I have found in standard UL 20, which coverse general use snap switches, that under section 5.9 for dialectric voltage withstand testing a switch rated at 120vac must be insulated to withstand a megger test of 1500v between live parts as well as dead parts without insulation breakdown. For 251-600v, the test voltage can be in excess of 2500v.

Does this address your question? I have done my best to understand the application, I doubt that your engineer lacks any experience in the field, ie this isn't his first project. Not that mistakes don't happen, and as for the comment above about how field electricians should not be responsible for project design from square one, well, it is my opinion that between the NEC and fairly rigorous experience a well qualified electrician should be at least as capable of designing a functional and efficient electrical installation from the utility transformer right down to the lamps as any degree-holding engineer. Sadly, electrical engineers are too often painfully ignorant of things like building codes, practical uses and applications, and other aspects of physically constructing a building that electricians must be proficient with on a day-to-day basis. And they ususally don't like it when an electrician demonstrates this either, contrary to some of the sentiments above.
 
  • #36
In the USA the neutral is NEVER, EVER, under any circumstance interrupted. Switching the neutral is prohibited. Sophie, I think this is not the case in the UK.
 
  • #37
Averagesupernova said:
In the USA the neutral is NEVER, EVER, under any circumstance interrupted. Switching the neutral is prohibited. Sophie, I think this is not the case in the UK.

Asn, you're very close to right about that. However, if you've ever dealt with a cabinet heater thermostat, a 120v motor starter coil in which the overload relay is typically located after the coil (the neutral side), or a four pole break transfer switch, you will find that on some occasions the (utility or system) neutral does in fact get broken. It's not common practice, and as I said as a general rule you're right, but you need to be careful if you're going to invoke NEVER, EVER in the electrical industry.
 
  • #38
it is my opinion that between the NEC and fairly rigorous experience a well qualified electrician should be at least as capable of designing a functional and efficient electrical installation from the utility transformer right down to the lamps as any degree-holding engineer. Sadly, electrical engineers are too often painfully ignorant of things like building codes, practical uses and applications, and other aspects of physically constructing a building that electricians must be proficient with on a day-to-day basis.

nice post, krater.

And they ususally don't like it when an electrician demonstrates this either, contrary to some of the sentiments above.

It's a trait of youth . I've been down that road myself.
We all get graduate degrees from the School of Hard Knocks .
That's what codes are - compilations of lessons learned the hard way.
Observe that National Electrical Code is published not by the academic IEEE, but by the National Fire Prevention Association.

"Hubris begets Humility , after much pain." old jim
 
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  • #39
krater said:
Asn, you're very close to right about that. However, if you've ever dealt with a cabinet heater thermostat, a 120v motor starter coil in which the overload relay is typically located after the coil (the neutral side), or a four pole break transfer switch, you will find that on some occasions the (utility or system) neutral does in fact get broken. It's not common practice, and as I said as a general rule you're right, but you need to be careful if you're going to invoke NEVER, EVER in the electrical industry.

I have seen cases where the neutral is switched but have chalked it up to poor design practice. However, these cases have been in appliances that plug into a receptacle. It is not necessarily poor practice since sometimes the plug can get reversed. Whenever the neutral is switched in such an appliance steps should be taken so that the hot is also switched. Utility disconnects that I have seen that are a double throw for auxiliary power do not break the neutral.
 
  • #40
This Neutral thing is very different on both sides of the Atlantic. They should be given different names, in fact.
Disconnecting a Neutral when not all phases feeding a load have been disconnected is a possible hazard. In UK systems, you have either a three phase supply (big loads) or a single phase supply. Different single phase circuits will fan out from a three phase board and, to isolate one circuit, the L and N are both disconnected, ideally. 'Shared Neutral' is avoided, even within a single household, where only one phase is present so circuits can be truly isolated.
The US domestic system is more complicated and, IMO, more risky as a result. Dual voltages in one hhousehold seems a bad idea, to me.
 
  • #41
Presumably the breaker on the incoming supply to a US home is just Double Pole? What happens with fusing ?
 
  • #42
sophiecentaur said:
Presumably the breaker on the incoming supply to a US home is just Double Pole? What happens with fusing ?

Yes, 2 pole.Around these parts where there are still a lot of older homes with fuse panels,

18fbmch3me3nmjpg.jpg


the main is a big two position fuse block with a single handle.

Installing it upside-down leaves it disconnected but you don't have to remember where you set it down.

It is not uncommon for one of the two fuses to open circuit from just old age which of course kills the 220 volt appliances and half the lights. Symptoms are confusing because backfeed through a 220 volt appliance can provide limited current to stuff on the "dead" side.

Individual circuits are protected by the little round screw-in fuses. A 220 volt branch would use two round ones or in better panels it'll have another big pull-out fuseblock. In the picture above, one fuseblock is main the other probably for electric range.

Thank goodness those are disappearing as old houses are remodeled or bulldozed. Temptation for the "penny behind the fuse" has burnt down a lot of properties. (Some for the insurance...)

old jim
 
  • #43
sophiecentaur said:
'Shared Neutral' is avoided, even within a single household, where only one phase is present so circuits can be truly isolated.
I can't see why a neutral would EVER be shared in a residence in the UK since doing so will guarantee the sum of the currents of the 2 hots that are associated with said neutral. The only place sharing a neutral works is multi-phase or split-phase and then has plenty of potential to be done wrong.
The US domestic system is more complicated and, IMO, more risky as a result. Dual voltages in one hhousehold seems a bad idea, to me.

I can't agree. :)
 
  • #44
Averagesupernova said:
Utility disconnects that I have seen that are a double throw for auxiliary power do not break the neutral.

You can have a generator that is grounded as a separately derived system, in such case the neutral is connected directly to a grounding electrode system and it is permissable for a transfer from utility to break the neutral, isolating the premesis wiring and running the genset as prime power. I think it's frequently a preference of design and utility standards whether this is acceptable in a given locality. Unless it is desirable to be totally isolated from the utility grid there is no good reason to break the incoming neutral, and as such most transfer switches only break the ungrounded conductors.
 
  • #45
Averagesupernova said:
I can't see why a neutral would EVER be shared in a residence in the UK since doing so will guarantee the sum of the currents of the 2 hots that are associated with said neutral. The only place sharing a neutral works is multi-phase or split-phase and then has plenty of potential to be done wrong.


I can't agree. :)

It had been done in my home. I'm not saying it should have been and it has now been rectified. There are occasions where the temptation is to use the neutral of a Power circuit as the return for a single switched light. The current imbalance situation would be negligible.

If two phases are used in one premises (180° or 120°) then there is greater probability of the 'wrong' voltage being applied to a unit. There may be good historical reasons for the US system of a split phase arrangement but I have yet to be given a good reason for everything not being fed with 230V. (Actually, there is one reason and that is the unconvincing design of many of the LV mains connectors I have seen in the States - but that's a chicken and egg thing, I think).
 
  • #46
Often referred to as 'stealing' a neutral can also result in unnecessary EMFs. The code wants the hot as well as the neutral conductors of a circuit to run in the same cable or conduit. They want them side by side to act as a transmission line. What can often happen is a neutral is lost somewhere on a circuit. When the electrician is called to troubleshoot and repair this situation they may take a shortcut and tie in with a neutral on a different circuit. This can result in a large loop. Think single turn coil. Not only is this frowned upon, it is prohibited due to the EMF thing.
-
Now if I am correct, in the UK don't they run the wire out of the service panel out to each outlet (so-called in the USA even if it is a ceiling light) and then back to the service panel to form what they call a ring? So a load on a wall receptacle will have 2 redundant current paths? Sounds good, but when the one of the conductors becomes open for some reason now there is an unbalance of current in parallel conductors resulting in the EMF that I referred to.
 
  • #47
A borrowed or stolen neutral will only happen when someone wants a quick fix in a non-standard situation. I can't see it happening in a high power situation because high power networks have much simpler layouts than lighting circuits. The practice is a bad one - but not for the reasons above, so much as for safety reasons. A borrowed neutral is a potential path between a live circuit and one that has been isolated (in principle) by a double pole breaker. (You will say that the neutral, even of an isolated circuit, should not be broken but what happens with a length of cable that has been left behind because it's difficult to remove during an deinstall? Despite your 'rule' it would still be possible to put your hand on a Neutral coloured wire and find it live.
The issue of dual voltages in complicated (and undocumented) domestic installations is still very relevant, imo. Where you can't be sure of the standard of installation m(historically), it's best to make it as idiot-proof as possible. Single phase within one household is one way towards ensuring that. What is the advantage of the 120/240 system?

[Edit:]The Ring Main system is a pretty good one and it means that many outlets can be hung onto a single 'ring' of twin-and-earth. It uses a 32A fuse and 2.5mm wire, which is enough for heating, electronic equipment etc. etc. on one floor of your average home. It has several advantages - two thin wires are easier to deal with than one thick. A 'star' system requires more total length of cabling and the ring only needs a return length of cable from the last outlet on a 'daisy chain'. It does rely on all plugs having their (device specific) individual internal fuse ( but, if the fusing is done right) the main fuse is rarely taken out due to a device fault. Permanent connections have their own fuses so that there is no load hung directly on the 32A mains fuse. If there is a break in either conductor in the ring, then it may not be detected (about the only disadvantage I can think of). Wiring regs in the UK are very tight and the quality and standard of power distribution in the home is superior to anywhere else, imo. (Not cheap though).
 
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  • #48
Sophie, I find it an interesting juxtaposition that you tout the "idiot proof" nature of a single voltage system in a residential setting only to follow up with a paragraph extolling the virtues of a system where each individual device requires correctly sized local fusing instead of simply sizing the entirety of a branch circuit to handle the rating of the source overcurrent device. Not to mention, this arrangement of "ring mains" leaves me questioning its safety with respect to short circuit/ground fault protection. What is the gauge/size of the "spur" wires that lead to the outlets? And is equipment grounding sizing at least continuous with respect to the 32A supply main?

A 120v standard for residential use may in fact trace its origins to a historical design for the first incandescent lamps, however I think it's quite justified considering the many millions of man hours and pieces of equipment it would take to retrofit the entire North American grid with a 230v to ground two-wire service. I think any negligible gain in efficiency would be far offset with this endeavor. The task would have been further complicated in years past when the grounded or "neutral" conductor was also effectively the short-circuit/ground fault protection for the circuit as well as the equipment ground in some cases. In fact a somehwat disturbing number of these installations are still in use today. Also a limit of 120v is currently imposed by code, which does not allow luminaires (light fixtures) or loads under 1440kW (1/4HP) to be connected to a branch circuit over 120v line to line in a space defined as a dwelling unit or similar occupancy.

There is a very valid argument that twice the system voltage simply means double the potential current passing through a human body should one inadvertently find oneself part of an electrical circuit. You can idiot proof all you want, but even in an age where GFI protection for personnel is widely available and affordable people are still killed in the home by electricity. And in such situations where a grounded conductor is connected in place of an equipment ground it's twice the current that is going to try to flow through you instead of the system grounding point should you give it a favorable path. Higher voltages also equal greater arcing potential, higher fault current potentials, and overall greater associated risk.

Higher system voltages are commonplace when you start talking about buildings with hundreds of kW of lighting and several tens of thousands of kW motor loads. In these cases the (many times) cost of installing 480Y/277 or even higher voltage systems is eventually offset by the gains in efficiency; heavy industry often uses 4160v for internal distribution and to feed 100s+ HP motors. And with the growing use of extremely low power equipment such as solid-state and LEDs it is becoming more common to find lighting tracks, emergency lighting, and other hard-wired power and control systems operating at 24v, 12v or even lower, carrying only a handful of amps for tens of feet with building wire sizes that are already common. Greater voltage does not neccessarily equal greater benefit these days even taken from a standpoint of pure efficiency.

While the line of conversation has divereged somewhat it can be brought back to the main point of the OP that in his situation the concern over too high a voltage can probably be considered splitting hairs, just as Sophie, myself, and others could split hairs all day on the advantages of midpoint grounded (note: we still call it single phase over here) versus single voltage systems in residential settings. No matter how great the quality of grid power there is always the chance of transient surges, acts of nature ect, which is why electrical equipment is usually tested and certified some degree beyond what it should ever experience even in likely scenarios of improper use. From a safety standpoint there probably isn't much that has a margin of only a hundred or two volts between normal range and significantly unsafe operation. Much more prevalent are the dangers of currents in excess of what is safe or tolerable; excess volts usually lead to an immediate pop or bang while excess currents fester and lay in wait, until just the right circumstances can cause their revalation in far more destructive ways.

jim hardy said:
Observe that National Electrical Code is published not by the academic IEEE, but by the National Fire Prevention Association.

Yes. And I'm comfortable standing on this. We don't have 230v plugins cause my code says you can't, Sophie!
 
  • #49
That's a nice long list of points. This is not a win - lose argument because there are two successful and established systems that we're discussing.
You are right to point out the risks with the UK plug fuse situation and, for some loony reason, new plugs bought from a shop all seem to be fitted with 13A fuses. That is a serious hazard, in some cases. However, all modern appliances are sold with a moulded plug - and the correct fuse - and the vast majority of them end their lives with the same plug and fuse. This means that the fire risk is small and decreasing. If individual appliances are not protected with their own plug fuse, how, in the US, do you ensure that they are supplied from a current limited socket? The fuse is there to prevent a fire in the flex or the appliance due to over current. If the socket will give them 30A then what happens when a lightweight 5A flex is feeding a 10A 'short' inside the appliance? The ring main system goes a long way to prevent that sort of situation. A ring main supply to a typical living room will have three or four double outlets, or more. Is it the practice to have that number of outlets, separately fed from a central consumer unit? How else can you get proper fuse protection? Sounds like an expensive installation.

Earth leakage protection (residual current) works just fine and is standard for all new installations. The gauge of Earth conductor is set by the Earth wire in the 'twin and earth' cable that is set by the regs. Cookers and water heaters have separate heavy current cables and would not be part of a ring. A shower would have additional RCD protection. Spur wires are not standard in a ring system. The cable loops through each socket to the next and back to the fuse box. Spurs are usually fused and should only power a double outlet (iirc).

Of course, you have to stick with the current system in any country and I can see how they do not permit 230V plugins in the US because that would involve a complete re-design (have you studied the high quality of home produced UK 13A plugs? They are very good compared with most others I have seen - except in Switzerland). The change happened in the UK in the 50's, iirc, when the round pin 15A and 5A sockets were fed in a star system. But people had very few appliances so a couple of outlets in a room were adequate. In those days, people used to have nasty bayonet adaptors to allow small appliances (radios and even a toaster, in my home) to be fed from the hanging lamp in the centre of the room ! (OMG). At one time, to encourage the use of Electric power, there were two meters - one for lighting and one (cheap rate) for power sockets. The ring main system came in with the post war housing development (that's another story). I think the transition was made at a very opportune time when the Government had the strength of influence to make it happen. It would have been much harder for a vast place like the US to have made a similar changeover and it's pretty well impossible now - even if you wanted it.

I always find the discussions about US UK supply differences interesting. It took me a long time to realize that people saying the opposite can often both be correct. lol
 
  • #50
eh, I feel that most people who have been accidentally zapped by 230V would agree that 120V is the superior system!
 
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