Electrostatic force between a Half Cylinder and a Plate

AI Thread Summary
The discussion revolves around calculating the electrostatic force between a half cylinder and a dielectric plate, both carrying uniform charges. The initial brute force integration approach yielded a force expression, but the user sought a more elegant solution using symmetry and flux concepts. By considering the electric field and the flux through the plate, they derived a relationship for the force based on the total flux from the half cylinder. The conversation also touched on the subtended angles of the plate at various points on the half cylinder, leading to insights about the geometry involved. The problem is sourced from a problem book titled "Advanced Problems in School Physics," suggesting its complexity despite being intended for high school students.
Terry Bing
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Homework Statement


(This is not a HW problem, but HW-type problem.)
A half cylinder of radius R and length L>>R is formed by cutting a cylindrical pipe made of an insulating material along a plane containing its axis. The rectangular base of the half cylinder is closed by a dielectric plate of length L and width 2R. A charge Q on the half cylinder and a charge q on the dielectric plate are uniformly sprinkled. Find the electrostatic force between the half cylinder and the dielectric plate.

Homework Equations


Flux through a closed surface S enclosing a charge q_{enc} is
\oint_S \vec{E} \cdot \vec{dA} \ =\frac{q_{enc}}{\epsilon _0}
Force \vec{dF} on a charged surface carrying a surface charge density \sigma due to an electric field \vec{E} is
\vec{dF}=\sigma \vec{E} dA, where dA is the area element (scalar, not vector).

The Attempt at a Solution


Brute force integration gave me
F=\frac{qQ}{8\epsilon_0 R L}
Since this problem is from a high school textbook, I think brute force double integration \int_S \vec{dF} is not the expected solution. So I tried the following:
For the flat plate which has uniform charge distribution,
\int_S \vec{dF}=\int_S\sigma \vec{E} dA
By symmetry of the problem, we know that resultant force will be normal to the plate. Hence we pick the normal component of \vec{E}. Let the magnitude of the net force be F
\lvert \int_S \vec{dF} \rvert=\sigma \int_SE_\perp dA
\implies F=\sigma \int_S \vec{E} \cdot \vec{dA}
\implies F=\sigma \, \Phi
where \Phi is the flux due to the half cylinder through the plate.
\implies F=\frac{q}{2RL} \, \Phi

Now, total flux emerging from the half cylinder is
\Phi_{tot} =\frac{Q}{\epsilon _0}
Out of this if \Phi=\frac{1}{4}\Phi_{tot} =\frac{Q}{4 \epsilon _0} passes through the plate, then we are done. But I don't see how I can show this.
Any help would be appreciated.
 
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Terry Bing said:
I don't see how I can show this.
What angle does the plate subtend at a point on the half pipe?
 
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haruspex said:
What angle does the plate subtend at a point on the half pipe?
Depends on the point we choose. For eg at a point adjacent to the plate it subtends zero angle.
The farthest point does subtend pi/2. If that was true for all points, then great. But that,s not true for all points, is it?
 
Terry Bing said:
Depends on the point we choose. For eg at a point adjacent to the plate it subtends zero angle.
No. The plate occupies a diameter of the half pipe. What angle does a diameter of a circle subtend at its circumference?
 
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haruspex said:
No. The plate occupies a diameter of the half pipe. What angle does a diameter of a circle subtend at its circumference?
Awesome! Thanks.
I was considering the extreme case of a point on the edge of the half pipe, on which the plate seems to subtend zero angle. I guess as a limit, it would still subtend pi/2.
 
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Terry Bing said:
Awesome! Thanks.
I was considering the extreme case of a point on the edge of the half pipe, on which the plate seems to subtend zero angle. I guess as a limit, it would still subtend pi/2.
Right.
 
What a nice problem!

@Terry Bing, This is from a high-school text? Interesting! Do you mind giving the title and author of the text?
 
TSny said:
What a nice problem!

@Terry Bing, This is from a high-school text? Interesting! Do you mind giving the title and author of the text?
Sorry, not a text, a problem book. 'Advanced Problems in school physics', by cengage publication. I think it is out of publication. Problems compiled by indian authors , I think mostly physics olympiad problems.
 
Terry Bing said:
Sorry, not a text, a problem book. 'Advanced Problems in school physics', by cengage publication. I think it is out of publication. Problems compiled by indian authors , I think mostly physics olympiad problems.
OK. Thank you.
 
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quite simple unitary method, 4pi angle enclosed means Q/Eo. Therefore, pi angle enclosed here which means Q/4Eo
 
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Terry Bing said:

Homework Statement


(This is not a HW problem, but HW-type problem.)
A half cylinder of radius R and length L>>R is formed by cutting a cylindrical pipe made of an insulating material along a plane containing its axis. The rectangular base of the half cylinder is closed by a dielectric plate of length L and width 2R. A charge Q on the half cylinder and a charge q on the dielectric plate are uniformly sprinkled. Find the electrostatic force between the half cylinder and the dielectric plate.

Homework Equations


Flux through a closed surface S enclosing a charge qenc is
∮SE→⋅dA→ =qencϵ0
Force dF→ on a charged surface carrying a surface charge density σ due to an electric field E→ is
dF→=σE→dA, where dA is the area element (scalar, not vector).

The Attempt at a Solution


Brute force integration gave me
F=qQ8ϵ0RL
Since this problem is from a high school textbook, I think brute force double integration ∫SdF→ is not the expected solution. So I tried the following:
For the flat plate which has uniform charge distribution,
∫SdF→=∫SσE→dA
By symmetry of the problem, we know that resultant force will be normal to the plate. Hence we pick the normal component of E→. Let the magnitude of the net force be F
|∫SdF→|=σ∫SE⊥dA
⟹F=σ∫SE→⋅dA→
⟹F=σΦ
where Φ is the flux due to the half cylinder through the plate.
⟹F=q2RLΦ

Now, total flux emerging from the half cylinder is
Φtot=Qϵ0
Out of this if Φ=14Φtot=Q4ϵ0 passes through the plate, then we are done. But I don't see how I can show this.
Any help would be appreciated.

 
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