Finding second derivative of sin y+cos y=x in terms of x

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around finding the second derivative of the equation sin y + cos y = x, specifically expressing it in terms of x. The subject area includes implicit differentiation and the application of derivatives in trigonometric contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the initial steps of finding the first derivative and consider whether to use the chain rule or quotient rule for further differentiation. There is also exploration of simplifying the second derivative and the potential to express y as a function of x for easier differentiation.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing with participants sharing their attempts and reasoning. Some suggest that expressing y in terms of x might provide a more straightforward path to the solution, while others explore the implications of their current expressions for the second derivative.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the challenge of expressing the second derivative entirely in terms of x and consider the implications of various trigonometric identities and forms.

sooyong94
Messages
173
Reaction score
2

Homework Statement


Find the second derivative of sin y+cos y=x, giving your answer in terms of x.


Homework Equations


Implicit derivatives


The Attempt at a Solution


##\sin y+\cos y=x##
##\cos y \frac{dy}{dx} -\sin y \frac{dy}{dx}=1##
##\frac{dy}{dx}=\frac{1}{\cos y-\sin y}##

Now, do I use the chain rule by rewriting them as ##(\cos y-\sin y)^{-1}##, or use the quotient rule instead?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
sooyong94 said:

Homework Statement


Find the second derivative of sin y+cos y=x, giving your answer in terms of x.


Homework Equations


Implicit derivatives


The Attempt at a Solution


##\sin y+\cos y=x##
##\cos y \frac{dy}{dx} -\sin y \frac{dy}{dx}=1##
##\frac{dy}{dx}=\frac{1}{\cos y-\sin y}##

Now, do I use the chain rule by rewriting them as ##(\cos y-\sin y)^{-1}##, or use the quotient rule instead?
Either one. The chain rule might be a little easier.
 
Now that gives:
##\frac{d^{2}y}{dx^{2}}=-(\cos y-\sin y)^{-2} (-\sin y \frac{dy}{dx} -\cos y \frac{dy}{dx})##
 
sooyong94 said:
Now that gives:
##\frac{d^{2}y}{dx^{2}}=-(\cos y-\sin y)^{-2} (-\sin y \frac{dy}{dx} -\cos y \frac{dy}{dx})##

That should simplify to ##\frac{d^2y}{dx^2} = x(\frac{dy}{dx})^3## if you do the proper subs. Actually, it would've been much easier to leave everything on the LHS, and just use product rule and chain rule to get to that.

But it still doesn't help to put everything in terms of x. Honestly, I cannot see how you can progress from that stage.

I think you're much better off trying to find y as a function of x, then differentiating twice. This gives a quick answer.

To do that, think of how you would put ##a\sin x + b\cos x## into the form ##c\sin(x + \theta)##.

EDIT: There is a way to continue from ##\frac{d^2y}{dx^2} = x(\frac{dy}{dx})^3##. But you have to square the implicit equations for x and the first derivative and add them together to eliminate the y term (apply a trig identity as well). Seems like a bit more effort than just recasting y in terms of x from the start.
 
Last edited:
Well, the form ##c\sin(x+\theta)## worked nicely. :P
 

Similar threads

Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K