Help with my unknown in the second organic chemistry

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around identifying an unknown organic compound in a laboratory setting. Participants share their experimental results, including boiling point measurements, solubility tests, and derivative synthesis attempts. The focus is on the interpretation of these results and the implications for determining the identity of the unknown compound.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Experimental/applied
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant reports a boiling point of around 147°C, later refined to a range of 155°C-165°C, and questions the method of measuring boiling point.
  • Concerns are raised about the solubility of the unknown compound in water, with one participant noting that 3 mg in 1 mL seems low.
  • Another participant suggests that the boiling point should be measured just above the liquid surface, indicating a potential misunderstanding of the procedure.
  • Several compounds are listed with their respective boiling points, and participants discuss the implications of melting points of derivatives for identifying the unknown compound.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the purity of their derivative product based on melting point observations.
  • There is a question about whether a compound's melting point being higher than a derivative's melting point is a reliable rule of thumb for identification.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various uncertainties and disagreements regarding the experimental methods and interpretations of results. No consensus is reached on the identity of the unknown compound or the correctness of the procedures followed.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention limitations in their experimental setups, such as the lack of chemicals for certain derivatives and the absence of spectral data for further analysis. There are also unresolved questions about the boiling point measurement technique and the implications of solubility results.

Who May Find This Useful

Students and educators in organic chemistry, particularly those involved in laboratory experiments and compound identification processes.

laser123
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1. Homework Statement
Okay, I just started working on my unknown in Lab and I got stuck with a liquid. First I determined the boiling point, my professor told me to let this step go for 30 minutes and it plateaued at around 147°C. I did this twice the first time I didn't do it as long and got a 140°C reading. Then I did the solubility test in water and found that 3mg of unknown to 1mL of H20(distilled) and it dissolved so it was soluble in water. Is this really uncommon for an unknown to dissolve in water or did i mess up somewhere? I then performed litmus test. Should I be worried.
2. Homework Equations
The textbook. Not applicable

3. The Attempt at a Solution
I did the solubility test twice. Also performed litmus test twice. The litmus test gave me a neutral reading.
 
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It is not clear to me what kind of help do you expect. So far you are just collecting data, you don't know enough yet to tell anything.
 
Thanks. I was just worried and freaking out that I did something wrong.
 
I am not saying you didn't. 3 mg in 1 mL of solvent look rather strange to me, I would expect more like 30 mg per 1mL. But I have no idea what is the procedure you are expected to follow, so whatever I think doesn't matter much at this stage.
 
Oooops you're right.lol. That's what i meant. I read the scale at 0.036g. And then at 0.041g. It felt like I hardly put anything in there.
 
Hey Borek, thanks for helping. I turned my preliminary in and was right. So it is either a (low MW neutral alkene, alkyne, alchohol, ketone, amide, nitro compound, aldehyde, ester, ether). I have another question though, my professor told me to proof check my boiling point and put a no by it. This is how I determined it: I placed a thermometer about 1 cm above 0.5 mL of the liquid unknown in a test tube. I slowly heated the liquid to boiling. And allowed it to keep going for 30 minutes and obtained my max value and gave it a range of + or - 5 degrees Celsius. I'm confused because this what he told us to do. I thought the boiling point was as soon as it started to bubble, so is he wrong. Or am i just doing something wrong?
 
You have boiled the liquid for half an hour without condenser, and it didn't run away? Either I don't understand what you wrote or there is something missing from your description, or you are using approach that I have never heard of.
 
It's best to determine boiling point above the surface of the liquid just beneath the point where
condensation occurs.
 
Thanks guys, the boiling point was 155°C-165°C which has given me a choice of 6 possible compounds. List compound with respective boiling point in (°C): (+-)-4-Heptanol 156, 1-hexanol 159, cyclohexanol 160, (+-)-2-Heptanol 160, 3-chloro-1-propanol 161, (+-)-cis-2-methylcyclohexanol 165. These have 5 possible derivative we can make. I can only make three due to lack of chemicals in lab(we're poor). Phenylurethane, 4-nitrobenzoate, and 3,5-dinitrobenzoate. My phenylurethane derivative i feel was a disaster because it yield very little product and started to melt at 77, but didn't finish at all, even at 160°C. So I'm guessing that's really impure, which i still don't understand why the melting point is that high for it. The 77°C responds to my 82°C melting point of phenylurethane for cyclohexane. My next derivative 3,5-dinitrobenzoate melted at 103-105°C which i thought was good. This left only one choice because only one of my 6 choice had a melting point higher than that which is the cyclohexanol at 113°C. I tried making the 4-nitrobenzoate derivative today with no result(no filtrate) just went straight through vacuum filtration. I'm going to an extra lab tomorrow for another go at it. From my result do you think it's cyclohexanol or not enough information given. We don't get spectra until we figure out what our unknown is.

p.s Just to clarify, if my compound melting at 103°c the secret compound can only be higher than that melting point. Is that a good rule of thumb.

Thank you,
you guys are amazing
 
  • #10
And my solubility test said it was a low MW and neutral too...
 

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