News Independence of Israel

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Majd100

63 years Israel was created as the only democratic country with western values in Middle East. In the same time, 60% of Palestinian people left their land and they are not allowed to return until now. If those refugees are allowed to return back, then Israel will not be a Jews state anymore, and keeping those refugees out is against the international laws and a violation of the basic human rights.

I think creation of one secular state for all its citizens with democratic government could be the solution for this complex conflict?
 

Office_Shredder

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I think creation of one secular state for all its citizens with democratic government could be the solution for this complex conflict?
How do you suggest implementing this and getting everyone to agree to it?
 
i have my doubts that the israelis would ever agree to a single-state solution that would include palestinians. that would mean a loss of majority and a loss of power. a two-state solution is the best way, but the hard religious right there is determined to not simply maintain power, but also to expand the territory of israel. so ethnic cleansing and colonization continues, with the USG using its UN veto power to assist by blocking any sanctions, and indeed by providing direction financial support as well.
 

Majd100

i have my doubts that the israelis would ever agree to a single-state solution that would include palestinians. that would mean a loss of majority and a loss of power. a two-state solution is the best way, but the hard religious right there is determined to not simply maintain power, but also to expand the territory of israel. so ethnic cleansing and colonization continues, with the USG using its UN veto power to assist by blocking any sanctions, and indeed by providing direction financial support as well.
Even if Israel withdrew from West Bank and Gaza, the Jews will be minority with the return of Palestinian refugees according to the UN resolution no. 194. Suppose that the Israeli succeed to cancel the right of return to the Palestinian, still 20% of the Israeli are not Jews (Christians and Muslims from Palestinian origin). This minority with high fertility will be 50% within 50 years.

Israel can not be a Jews state and democratic at the same time. There is a revolution in Arab world, and soon we will observe the birth of several democratic modern countries where all people are equal under the constitution.
 
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Majd100

How do you suggest implementing this and getting everyone to agree to it?
I wish this idea will be valuable with the revolutions of Arab world. Democracy and equal rights for all the nations of the region are the ultimate hope for people.

People with different religions had been living in that part of the world peacefully for centuries, and I wish they will live again together.

The beauty of that region is the historical mosaic of different groups.
 

AlephZero

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People with different religions had been living in that part of the world peacefully for centuries, and I wish they will live again together.
Which particular centuries are you referring to?
 

Majd100

Which particular centuries are you referring to?
There are many examples in history:

-The Moorish Rule in Iberia (Spain) 711-1250.
-Until 50 years ago a high percentage of people of Arab world were Christians who could live in peace for centuries.
- After the Catholics liberated Spain, all the Jews forced to convert or to leave to the Islamic world.
- The first wave of Jews immigrants from Russia to Palestine was in 1871, they welcomed by the native people.

- During the Golden age of Baghdad (1000 years ago), more than 30% of this city were Jews, Christian and followers of other religions.

- After the liberation of Jerusalem in 1187 from the crusaders, Muslims rebuilt the Jews quarter and kept the Christian quarters until now.


Such religious tolerance rarely exist in other parts of the world in the old and middle ages..
 
well, this should be interesting

http://www.scribd.com/doc/55600738/Yediot-May17-11-Draft-of-Obama-Speech [Broken]

Yes to a withdrawal to 1967 borders, no to a unilateral declaration

Shimon Shiffer, Yediot, May 17 2011

On Thursday US President Barack Obama will call upon Israel to withdraw to the 1967 lines, with border alterations that will be agreed upon with the Palestinian Authority -- but in his speech he will rule out the notion of a unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state. This is what is arising from talks in recent days between National Security Adviser Yaakov Amidror and his predecessor Uzi Arad with senior officials in the US administration, ahead of the prime minister’s visit to Washington.
 
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Majd100

well, this should be interesting

http://www.scribd.com/doc/55600738/Yediot-May17-11-Draft-of-Obama-Speech [Broken]
What if Israel refused to withdraw to 1967 boundaries? Should the Palestine wait another several decades under occupation? Unfortunately the Israeli leaders are playing since decades by what so called peace process. This interesting link about Natanyahu speaks to the family of an Israeli settlement of "Ofra" in 2001, without knowledge that the camera was working at the time.

The just use the peace process and "the useless" negotiation to waste time and to build more settlements on the Palestinian land.

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/6327161-an-old-video-tape-to-netanyahu-destroyed-oslo-and-manipulating-america
 
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What if Israel refused to withdraw to 1967 boundaries? Should the Palestine wait another several decades under occupation? Unfortunately the Israeli leaders are playing since decades by what so called peace process. This interesting link about Natanyahu speaks to the family of an Israeli settlement of "Ofra" in 2001, without knowledge that the camera was working at the time.

The just use the peace process and "the useless" negotiation to waste time and to build more settlements on the Palestinian land.

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/6327161-an-old-video-tape-to-netanyahu-destroyed-oslo-and-manipulating-america
yes, i am aware and have posted about netanyahu's deception before.

you are right that there is a pretty good chance that this will change nothing. but it might also change the nature of the "debate" we get about it here in the mainstream press. so i'm not going to assume too much just yet, and sit back and see what actually happens. perhaps the arab spring has somewhat eroded the old propaganda.
 
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arildno

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There are many examples in history:
-The Moorish Rule in Iberia (Spain) 711-1250.
Check out, for starters:
1. The Martyrs of Cordoba in the mid-ninth century
2. The massacres of the Jews in Granada in 1066
3. The Almoravid&Almohad persecutions of Jews&Christians in the later 11th to 12th centuries.
The family of Maimonides, for example, had to flee Almohad persection around 1150.
Do you know where most Jews and Christians took refuge?
In the northern Christian Spanish states like Aragon.
I suggest you read, for example, Tom Yov Assis' book "The Golden Age of Jewry in Aragon".

4. "-Until 50 years ago a high percentage of people of Arab world were Christians who could live in peace for centuries."
Ever heard of the Damascene massacres in 1860?
Or of the numberless other massacres, large and small throughout the centuries?
Probably not.

5. - After the Catholics liberated Spain, all the Jews forced to convert or to leave to the Islamic world.



I could go on and on demolishing your fantasy picture of Islamic history, but I don't bother to.

Just one further point:
If you didn't know it, the Christians were the original inhabitants of Northern Africa and the Middle East and the Zoroastrians of ancient Persia at the time of the Arab conquests.

Blathering about the continued existence of such communities (execept the Zoroastrians, of course, that were massacred, with a pitiful remnant fleeing to India) as some sort of proof of Islamic tolerance is wholly misguided.

The proper question is:
WHY WERE THERE SO FEW OF THE ORIGINAL INHABITANTS LEFT?
 
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Char. Limit

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Why can't people realize that no religion is wholly good, and that all religions have done some pretty bad stuff?

Hell, the Jews aren't immune either. Ever read the Old Testament?
 

arildno

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Furthermore, to the Palestinian "refugee" problem:

There aren't any Palestinian refugees any longer in the world.
Because refugee status is NOT hereditary, despite UNs gross violation of that fundamental rule in the case of..the Palestinians.
 

Char. Limit

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Furthermore, to the Palestinian "refugee" problem:

There aren't any Palestinian refugees any longer in the world.
Because refugee status is NOT hereditary, despite UNs gross violation of that fundamental rule in the case of..the Palestinians.
So, uhh... what does that make them, then? Israel doesn't want them, but if they're born on Israeli land... does that make them Israelis?
 

arildno

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So, uhh... what does that make them, then? Israel doesn't want them, but if they're born on Israeli land... does that make them Israelis?
Inhabitants of occupied/externally controlled land, of course.
That is not the same as refugee status.

There are no refugees on,say, the Gaza strip, from Israel proper, since they have died of old age, mostly.
 
Furthermore, to the Palestinian "refugee" problem:

There aren't any Palestinian refugees any longer in the world.
Because refugee status is NOT hereditary, despite UNs gross violation of that fundamental rule in the case of..the Palestinians.
why don't we just call them diaspora.
 

arildno

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why don't we just call them diaspora.
If you like.
And then, the Palestinians might wean themselves off the infantilizing UN "Aid" and actually produce products of value others will buy.
And then, they might buy land, for example within Israel.

Oh, I forgot:
They might stop indoctrinating 5-year olds on national television about the glory in murdering Jews.
 
If you like.
And then, the Palestinians might wean themselves off the infantilizing UN "Aid" and actually produce products of value others will buy.
And then, they might buy land, for example within Israel.
right after israel weans itself off of US aid.

and you seem to quickly forget that israel has been blockading them and preventing them from importing anything that allows to actually produce products of value.

if you really want to get into it, then i can go start looking up all the racist crap going on in israel where they don't want any non-jews living in their neighborhoods. or don't think that they even have basic rights to speech like others.

but yeah, when you've abused them the way you have, then it becomes easy to play all this bigoted crap against them about them being poor and useless.
 

Majd100

Inhabitants of occupied/externally controlled land, of course.
That is not the same as refugee status.

There are no refugees on,say, the Gaza strip, from Israel proper, since they have died of old age, mostly.
Their sons have the status of refugees according to the UN. They should get their houses and land. They should not stay for generations as refugees.
 

Majd100

If you like.
And then, the Palestinians might wean themselves off the infantilizing UN "Aid" and actually produce products of value others will buy.
And then, they might buy land, for example within Israel.

Oh, I forgot:
They might stop indoctrinating 5-year olds on national television about the glory in murdering Jews.
Palestinian refugees should get their lost land in Yafa, Haifa, Safad ....and they should have a decent life. It is enough to live 63 years in refugees camps after loosing the all their properties and lands.

Concerning terrorism:

The Zionists who introduced the terrorism to ME after Irgun ''one of the major Zionist organizations" exploded King David Hotel in Jerusalem to kill the representative of the UN in 1946.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

The Palestinian uprising in west Bank and Gaza started - for the first time - in 1987 after 20 years of occupation, before that there were no suicide bombers or military attacks against the Israeli. It is natural response on long-term occupation of a complete nation.

End the occupation and state terrorism and then you can blame the Palestinian if they continue their attacks.

Jews of Nablus (largest current Palestinian city after Jerusalem) are living in peace with their Palestinian neighbors since 3000 years because they do not expel people and take their lands based on myth. This proves that Palestinian are not aggressive against Jews just because they are Jews.
 
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Bobbywhy

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Einstein suggested the following to help form a "binational state" in 1930. Maybe it would be useful now:

Letter to an Arab

March 15, 1930

Sir,

Your letter has given me great pleasure. It shows me that there is good
Will available on your side too for solving the present difficulties in a
manner worthy of both our nations. I believe that these difficulties are
more psychological than real, and that they can be got over if both sides
bring honesty and good will to the task.

What makes the present position so bad is the fact that Jews and Arabs
confront each other as opponents before the mandatory power. This state of
affairs is unworthy of both nations and can only be altered by our finding a
via media on which both sides agree.

I will now tell you how I think that the present difficulties might be
remedied; at the same time I must add that this is only my personal opinion,
which I have discussed with nobody. I am writing this letter in German
because I am not capable of writing it in English myself and because I want
myself to bear the entire responsibility for it. You will, I am sure, be
able to get some Jewish friend of conciliation to translate it.

A Privy Council is to be formed to which the Jews and Arabs shall each
send four representatives, who must be independent of all political parties.

Each group to be composed as follows:--

A doctor, elected by the Medical Association;
A lawyer, elected by the lawyers;
A working men's representative, elected by the trade unions;
An ecclesiastic, elected by the ecclesiastics.

These eight people are to meet once a week. They undertake not to
espouse the sectional interests of their profession or nation but
conscientiously and to the best of their power to aim at the welfare of the
whole population of the country. Their deliberations shall be secret and
they are strictly forbidden to give any information about them, even in
private. When a decision has been reached on any subject in which not less
than three members on each side concur, it may be published, but only in the
name of the whole Council. If a member dissents he may retire from the
Council, but he is not thereby released from the obligation to secrecy. If
one of the elective bodies above specified is dissatisfied with a resolution
of the Council, it may replace its representative by another.

Even if this "Privy Council" has no definite powers it may nevertheless
bring about the gradual composition of differences, and secure as united
representation of the common interests of the country before the mandatory
power, clear of the dust of ephemeral politics.
 

AlephZero

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I think that Einstein guy should stick to physics :smile:

Is it true or apocryphal that when he applied for US citizenship, he wanted to explain the logical contradictions he had found in the US constitution and suggest ways to fix it?
 

lisab

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I think that Einstein guy should stick to physics :smile:

Is it true or apocryphal that when he applied for US citizenship, he wanted to explain the logical contradictions he had found in the US constitution and suggest ways to fix it?
I heard that was Kurt Godel.

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_G%C3%B6del" [Broken] -

On December 5, 1947, Einstein and Morgenstern accompanied Gödel to his U.S. citizenship exam, where they acted as witnesses. Gödel had confided in them that he had discovered an inconsistency in the U.S. Constitution, one that would allow the U.S. to become a dictatorship. Einstein and Morgenstern were concerned that their friend's unpredictable behavior might jeopardize his chances. Fortunately, the judge turned out to be Phillip Forman. Forman knew Einstein and had administered the oath at Einstein's own citizenship hearing. Everything went smoothly until Forman happened to ask Gödel if he thought a dictatorship like the Nazi regime could happen in the U.S. Gödel then started to explain his discovery to Forman. Forman understood what was going on, cut Gödel off, and moved the hearing on to other questions and a routine conclusion.
 
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skippy1729

The Palestinian uprising in west Bank and Gaza started - for the first time - in 1987 after 20 years of occupation, before that there were no suicide bombers or military attacks against the Israeli. It is natural response on long-term occupation of a complete nation.
Here is a partial list of terrorist attacks by the various Palestinian groups and their friends in this time period 1967 to 1987:

1976 June 26–July 4: Hijacking of Air France Flight 139 (Tel Aviv-Paris) by Palestinian PFLP and German Revolutionary Cells (Revolutionäre Zellen); four hostages, one Sayeret Matkal soldier and 45 Ugandan soldiers killed.

May 8 1970 Avivim school bus attacks by Palestinian PLO members, killing nine children and three adults and crippling 19 children.

May 8 1972 Four PLO terrorists hijacked the aeroplane of Sabena Flight 572 carrying 99 passengers and ten crew members on route from Brussels to Tel Aviv. In a mission titled "Operation Isotope", 16 members of Sayeret Matkal posed as refueling and technical personnel and stormed the plane, killing the terrorists and releasing the passengers.

May 30 1972 Lod Airport Massacre by the Japanese Red Army terrorists, killing 26 and injuring 78.

September 5 1972 Black September kidnaps and kills eleven Israeli Olympic athletes and one German policeman in the Munich Massacre.

September 19 1972 The group Black September post a letter bomb to the Israeli embassy in London killing an Israeli diplomat.

April 11 1974 Kiryat Shmona massacre at an apartment building by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine members, killing 18 people, nine of whom were children.

May 15 1974 Ma'alot massacre at the Ma'alot High School in Northern Israel by Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine members: 26 of the hostages were killed, 66 wounded.

March 5 1975 In the Savoy Operation, Palestine Liberation Organization gunmen from Lebanon take dozens of hostages at the Tel Aviv Savoy Hotel, eventually killing eight hostages and three IDF soldiers, and wounding eleven hostages.

1978 Members of the Arab Revolutionary Council poison Israeli oranges with mercury, injuring at least twelve people and reducing exports by 40 percent.

March 11 1978 Coastal Road massacre: Fatah gunmen killed several tourists and hijack a bus near Haifa; 37 Israelis on the bus are killed.

April 7 1980 five Palestinian terrorists from the Iraqi-backed Arab Liberation Front penetrated kibbutz Misgav Am in Israel during night time and entered the nursery. They killed the kibbutz secretary and an infant boy. They held the rest of the children hostage, demanding the release of about 50 terrorists held in Israeli prisons. The first raid of an IDF infantry unit was unsuccessful, but a second attempt, a few hours later, succeeded, and all the terrorists were killed. Two kibbutz members and one soldier were killed, four children and 11 soldiers were injured.

March 7 1984 Three killed and nine injured in the bombing of a civilian bus in Ashod.

1986 A bomb place on a bus in the West Bank kills one and severely injures three. A Jordanian Mahmoud Mahmoud Atta is arrested, extradited to Israel, convicted, sentenced to life in prison and freed by the Israeli Supreme Court. After the September 11 attacks, he was confused with ringleader Egyptian Mohamed Atta.

1976 June 26–July 4: Hijacking of Air France Flight 139 (Tel Aviv-Paris) by Palestinian PFLP and German Revolutionary Cells (Revolutionäre Zellen); four hostages, one Sayeret Matkal soldier and 45 Ugandan soldiers killed.

Sources: mostly Wikipedia.

I count the deaths of innocents at 139 adults and 19 children. Of course this pales when compared to the atrocities of the Intifada, but, lets not pretend they were good boys and girls for the first 20 years of occupation.
 

Majd100

I refer to "the Palestinian uprising", which means the popular uprising inside the occupied territories to end the occupation. This uprising is legal according to the international laws.

All the listed attacks are part of the external conflict between the Israeli army and specific militant groups. Also for every innocent Israeli killed, there are more than 50 innocent Palestinian victim by the Israeli army.

If you would like to talk about this issue, then you should balance your answer by presenting the victims from both sides!!



Here is a partial list of terrorist attacks by the various Palestinian groups and their friends in this time period 1967 to 1987:

1976 June 26–July 4: Hijacking of Air France Flight 139 (Tel Aviv-Paris) by Palestinian PFLP and German Revolutionary Cells (Revolutionäre Zellen); four hostages, one Sayeret Matkal soldier and 45 Ugandan soldiers killed.

I count the deaths of innocents at 139 adults and 19 children. Of course this pales when compared to the atrocities of the Intifada, but, lets not pretend they were good boys and girls for the first 20 years of occupation.
 

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