News Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?

[Ivan Seeking]

I think so. I see commercial after commercial about how the military will do this or that or the other thing for a person - provide education, skills, travel, teach you to look a man in the eye and shake hands firmly, - and I have seen the results - mental problems, alcoholism, a lack of respect for life, cult style brainwashing [patriotism], not to mention four years of utter boredom by most accounts. Oh yes, and then there's the flag draped coffins.

I came within a few hours of signing a six year active duty commitment as a Nuclear Officer in the Navy, and I am very thankful that at the last possible moment, someone talked me out of joining.

 

[Pengwuino]

Although the title is highly decieving, i get what you're saying. Oddly enough my nephew is a marine reservist and let's see..

Mental problems? No.
Alcoholism? No (but then again he drank before even considering the military)
Lack of respect for life? No (and of course that's just your personal opinion)
Brainwashing? Dream on.
Four years of utter boredom? Well he's been pretty bored so far. Oddly enough, he can't wait to go to Iraq but they have been delaying their call-up for i think 18 months or so already.
Flag draped coffins? It's a military, people die, want us to disband it and go back to the stone age?

Whats with all the uninformed ideological rants lately.

 

[Gokul43201]

Whats with all the uninformed ideological rants lately.

What's with the single-data-point statistics ?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As a one-off, I knew a guy who re-upped just so that he could fight in Gulf I. He wanted to use what he had learned. In other words, he wanted to kill people.

Soldiers are trained killers. By defintion this requires a desensitization to killing.

 

[Pengwuino]

There's a difference between lack of respect and de-sensitizing.

 

[Pengwuino]

What's with the single-data-point statistics ?

Did you mean to quote ivan?

 

[Gokul43201]

He wanted to use what he had learned. In other words, he wanted to kill people.

I'm quite sure he doesn't want to kill innocent civilians...rather those people who are killing innocent civilians.

 

[Gokul43201]

Did you mean to quote ivan?

No, I didn't.

Did you mean to ask someone else ?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm quite sure he doesn't want to kill innocent civilians...rather those people who are killing innocent civilians.

He didn't seem to care where he used his skills as long as someone said that it was okay to shoot. A Marine, he expressed great frustration as his commitment was nearing an end. He complained that one learns all of these skills but never really gets to use them. Then Gulf I flared up and he saw his chance, so he signed up for another term.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I have spent many hours working at VA hospitals.

 

[Townsend]

What's with the single-data-point statistics ?

Well either Ivan is making a generalization in which case all you need is a single counter example to show that statement is false or he making a statistical statement minus any of the required statistics...
So why are you jumping on the single data point provided by one person while you let the complete lack of evidence go without a hitch from the other person? Are you showing a bias here or do you have a good reason for that?

 

[Townsend]

I have spent many hours working at VA hospitals.

And so I value your opinion about VA hostipals. That does not qualify you to make the kind of statements you made.

I have spent many hours serving on active duty and not a single statement you made would seem to agree with my observations in any way. If your going to make sensational claims that go completely against observations then you should have some pretty convincing evidence to support it.

So far the only evidence is that you have offered is a personal account from working in a VA hospital...that doesn't cut it.

[edit]perhaps the patriotism part is true but mostly just by Marines and die hards...in the Navy FTN is the most common mantra held by the 4 year guys and I would even say they are less patriotic when they leave then when they came in.[/edit]

 

[Gokul43201]

Well either Ivan is making a generalization in which case all you need is a single counter example to show that statement is false or he making a statistical statement minus any of the required statistics...
So why are you jumping on the single data point provided by one person while you let the complete lack of evidence go without a hitch from the other person? Are you showing a bias here or do you have a good reason for that?

Ivan is making a statistical statement based on his experiences. And with no knowledge whatsoever of Ivan's experiences, Pengwuino labeled him as "uninformed". He also backed up this barb with a single piece of anecdotal evidence.

I may be showing a bias here, but I think I had good reason to post what I did (as explained above).

 

[Pengwuino]

So it's ok to say our soldiers are brainwashed but woo, the hell if i get to say someone is uninformed because they made a broad inaccurate generalization?

 

[Townsend]

I may be showing a bias here, but I think I had good reason to post what I did (as explained above).

You did have a good reason and what you posted is fine by me. What I don't get is why you don't challenge Ivan's points when they are clearly very weak?

 

[selfAdjoint]

Ivan has based his statements not only on his experiences but upon his opinions. He dislikes the fact the the Marine re-upped in order to use his Marine skills in combat. "In other words he wanted to kill people". This oversimplifies the desire of the Marine to fight, down to a desire to murder. If you believe they are the same thing, that is justifiable. But many of us do not believe that.

 

[Gokul43201]

I responded to pengwuino's personal attack on Ivan. I also responded to Ivan's claim that the person he knew wanted to kill people, no matter who they were.

I didn't endorse Ivan's statement anywhere (as Pengwuino has just insinuated I did). I'm done with this bickering.

 

[Pengwuino]

Oh come on, if we're not going to bicker, what is this sub-forum good for then :D

 

[Townsend]

I responded to pengwuino's personal attack on Ivan. I also responded to Ivan's claim that the person he knew wanted to kill people, no matter who they were.

I didn't endorse Ivan's statement anywhere (as Pengwuino has just insinuated I did). I'm done with this bickering.

Sorry to upset you...

I guess I take personal offense to post like Ivan's because I did spend 8.5 years serving in the Navy. I have many good and bad memories about it and I think I have a good idea of the pro's can con's of service in the Navy. I also worked with many Marines and so while I am not an expert on Marines I do value the opinions of my good friends who are Gunnys and Staff Sgts...

What Ivan's post is doing is denigrating a respectable job that people do for various reasons, the least of which is to kill people. If I felt he had an informed opinion then I would not mind him posting whatever but I cannot reconcile how unrealistic some of his statements are. They might have been true 25 years ago and even then only to some degree...However I entered into service in 1996 and left service August of 2004. In that time the military changed a lot and those statements are no longer accurate at all. The last two years of my enlistment, I earned over 30 college credits while serving full time active duty. Those credits helped me to advance in rank. I also spent an average of 10-15 hours a month doing community service. In fact my entire command CNATTU Lemoore was actively involved in off duty education and community service.

What is so wrong with having military bearing, education and community service that we should try to keep kids from joining the military?

 

[jimmie]

Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?

An occupation that requires an individual to place their physical body in immediate danger of physical harm, so as to inflict physical harm with "skills" that have been learned upon an other individual, thus inhibits the individual's ability to perform any physical "skill" learned, and renders the "occupation" redundant.

Therefore, any individual that promotes the said "occupation" is NOT "right".

A TRUE "occupation" encompasses "skills" that are applicable without inhibitions.

 

[pattylou]

Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?

Yes. Always, but particularly so now. Now, the military does not equal defense of American values so much as defense of misguided patriotism at all costs.

WWTDLD? (What would the dalai lama do?)

 

[Townsend]

Yes. Always, but particularly so now. Now, the military does not equal defense of American values so much as defense of misguided patriotism at all costs.

That is simply not true

If you all want to go around hating the Bush Administration and the republicans go right ahead, I won't try to stop you. But this crap is completely wrong and I would like to see some actual proof that these claims are true in general.

I am seriously disappointed in you people. This suppose to be an academic forum where I would at least expect people have informed opinions.

 

[pattylou]

My american values are things like:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

How does our invasion of Iraq in any way promote the ideals of tolerance, equality, welcome, and multi-culturism imbued in this inscription?

 

[Pengwuino]

How does our invasion of Iraq in any way promote the ideals of tolerance, equality, welcome, and multi-culturism imbued in this inscription?

How did Iraq's culture before that embody those ideals?

 

[Townsend]

My american values are things like:
How does our invasion of Iraq in any way promote the ideals of tolerance and multi-culturism imbued in this inscription?

The decision to invade Iraq was NOT made by the military! So you have NO point.

The values you listed are very much in line with the military values. Just take a look at military demographics and you will see that. The military takes people from all over the world and gives them a chance to make significant personal growth without having to worry about where they will get their next meal or thing like racism.

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about so why don't you give up while you're behind.

 

[pattylou]

It didn't. Iraq is also not part of the US. What's your point?

 

[Pengwuino]

It didn't. Iraq is also not part of the US. What's your point?

So why did you bring it up? What was your point? Other then to randomly bash the Bush Administration?

And what's with the random Bush Administration bashing lately. I'm all for people speaking there mind, but these things are coming out of nowhere. In that thread for the Pakistani earthquake had SOS come in and randomly criticize hte Iraq war and our budget deficit.

What's with people these days?

 

[Townsend]

It didn't. Iraq is also not part of the US. What's your point?

My point is that you have no point!

You are trying to say that invading Iraq is not inline with American values and therefore the US military is not inline with US values. That would be true ONLY if the military was the group that decided to invade Iraq. That is NOT true and so what you are trying to assert is NOT true.

 

[pattylou]

The decision to invade Iraq was NOT made by the military! So you have NO point.

The values you listed are very much in line with the military values. Just take a look at military demographics and you will see that. The military takes people from all over the world and gives them a chance to make significant personal growth without having to worry about where they will get their next meal or thing like racism.

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about so why don't you give up while you're behind.

I am not opposed to some aspects of the military.

The question is, is it ok to sell kids on the military *now?*

What is the first thing that comes to mind at the moment, when you think "military?"

For most people it's 'Iraq.'

Our *original* reasoning for going to Iraq has less pertinence to the original question, than the present mental link between military=Iraq.

Incidentally, why are you being so harsh towards me? My dad was at the battle of the bulge. I have no particular opinion on the military as a necessary part of state. However, it's clear that Bush sees the military as his little toy soldiers. *That* I have a problem with. But let's save all that for another thread and stick to the OP.

Do you acknowledge that the invasion of Iraq does not embody the ideals of "America" quoted above? Do you acknowledge that our military presence in Iraq is a major mental link for most americans, when they think "military?"

Can you then understand why sending naive children into the military, will promote the idea to them, that GWB's vision of the world is more important than the truth of the matter? This is why selling kids on the military at the moment is fundamentally wrong.

Do you understand that?

 

[Pengwuino]

Exactly what evidence do you have other hten your own personal hatred for him that indicates Bush thinks of the military as "litlte toy soldiers"?

And remember, this is an academic forum, what the masses think and what is reality are not connected.

And again, you forget, these "children" (although they are by no means, legally or otherwise, children) go based on their own will. Just because you're brainwashed doesn't mean everyone else is.

 

[pattylou]

So why did you bring it up?

Ummm... I didn't have a problem with Iraq. I still don't.

Bush did.

Iraq is not part of the US. Our soldiers ... *are.* I brought up taking our *soldiers* into an illegal war. I would *not* sell my children into this sort of twilight-zone mentality of it being ok to fight when you haven't been crossed in the first place. Our military, now, unfortunately, has a recent record of this behavior. I see no honor in joining the military at present, (although I hold my father's service in the highest regard. World War II was a war "worth fighting" if any war ever was. ) The invasion of Iraq isn't, wasn't, and never will be. It was a colossal mistake. This has to do with our actions, not with the sovereign nation of Iraq.

(... this isn't rocket science...)

 

[Townsend]

I am not opposed to some aspects of the military.
The question is, is it ok to sell kids on the military *now?*

There are US kids over in Iraq being killed right now! Wheather you agree with the war has nothing to do with you wanting to be over there to help out your fellow American who has is life on the line!

What is the first thing that comes to mind at the moment, when you think "military?"
For most people it's 'Iraq.'

If what you are considering is wheather or not to join then it should be about what you will be able to contribute and what you will be able to get out it. Not wheather you agree with the Iraq war.

Incidentally, why are you being so harsh towards me? My dad was at the battle of the bulge. I have no particular opinion on the military as a necessary part of state. It's clear that Bush sees the military as his little toy soldiers. *that* IO have a problem with. But let';s save all that for another thread and stick to the OP.

You are the one who brought up the Iraq war, NOT me...go back and look. I take offense when people denigrate a large and important part of my life with badly formed opininions. I think you would too.

Do you acknowledge that the invasion of Iraq does not embody the ideals of "America" quoted above? Do you acknowledge that our military presence in Iraq is a major mental link for most americans, when they think "military?"
Can you then understand why sending naive children into the military, will promote the idea to them, that GWB's vision of the world is more important than the truth of the matter? This is why it is wrong.
Do you understand that?

Yes, no, no... and I understand completely. You are the one who doesn't understand people reasons for joining the military.

I never once thought about joining or leaving the military because I disagreed with the whatever the current president is doing. I cared about what I had to offer to the military and what the military had to offer me. I know what it is like to work in a shop when your short half the manpower you should have. I understand what it means to help out someone else when there is no reward. I, like most sailors, had a love/hate relationship with the military.

What do you really have to base your opinion on?

 

[Pengwuino]

Since when did adults become your property? Is slavery still legal? Also, this war is not illegal, nothing exists saying a country has to follow the UN's view on reality seeing as how the UN is one of the most corrupt organizations on Earth. The invasion of Iraq is obviously not worth it if you see it through brainwashed anti-american eyes.

Of course, I'm sure you would never shed a tear for the 300,000 people who were murdered under Saddam because you don't believe in the American ideals of freedom and liberty... right?

 

[Townsend]

Ummm... I didn't have a problem with Iraq. I still don't.
Bush did.
Iraq is not part of the US. Our soldiers ... *are.* I brought up taking our *soldiers* into an illegal war. I would *not* sell my children into this sort of twilight-zone mentality of it being ok to fight when you haven't been crossed in the first place. Our military, now, unfortunately, has a recent record of this behavior. I see no honor in joining the military at present, (although I hold my father's service in the highest regard. World War II was a war "worth fighting" if any war ever was. ) The invasion of Iraq isn't, wasn't, and never will be. It was a colossal mistake. This has to do with our actions, not with the sovereign nation of Iraq.
(... this isn't rocket science...)

That is pathetic at best...

A person’s service in the military has NOTHING to do with the current politics of the world and equating the two is just plain BS...

Your values are not inline with American values or the ones you listed. What about joining the military to help out your fellow Americans? You can hate the war in Iraq but not joining the military is not going to end the war and it most certainly will not save anyone life!

 

[pattylou]

Exactly what evidence do you have other hten your own personal hatred for him that indicates Bush thinks of the military as "litlte toy soldiers"?

I'd start with the fact that he never refers to fallen sons by name, to their parents.

He de-personifies them into nameless "war heros" or "loved ones."

If you can talk about my Rachel by name, then I know you recognize that she was a person as much as any of us. If you can only marginally talk about "my loss" or my dead "child" I know that you are unwilling to fully face the fact that Rachel had to suffer through a life-threatening operation, that she ultimately died, and that this is a greater physical challenge than you or I have ever faced.

Bush's abilities have been very clear on this score. He does not recognize the personhood of the boys that have died in this war.

 

[Townsend]

Bush's abilities have been very clear on this score. He does not recognize the personhood of the boys that have died in this war.

It seems you have a lot more in common with Bush than you thought.

 

[Pengwuino]

Wow... so you're evidence is basically "im right, he's bad". I say this because he has numberous closed door conversations with individual families of soldiers who died and I HAVE heard him talk about people by name. If that's the actions of someone who doesn't see these people as human beings, then I don't know what does. Do you want him to set up funeral plans for every single soldier who died? How bout for everyone who dies in every war on earth? What can convince an ideolog...

 

[pattylou]

That is pathetic at best...

A person’s service in the military has NOTHING to do with the current politics of the world and equating the two is just plain BS...

You didn't answer my questions. I will not accept being on the receiving end of your attack. Answer my questions if you wish to continue a dialog. If you don't wish to consider a dialog, then recognize that you are closing yourself off from American sentiment, on what you seem to think is a very important matter.

 

[Townsend]

You didn't answer my questions. I will not accept being on the receiving end of your attack. Answer my questions if you wish to continue a dialog. If you don't wish to consider a dialog, then recognize that you are closing yourself off from American sentiment, on what you seem to think is a very important matter.

Show me what question of yours I left unanswered.

 

[Gokul43201]

Out of curiosity, what is the official statement that is conveyed to a spouse/child/parent/other family member of someone who dies a collateral death ? Or is there no such statement ?

 

[pattylou]

Wow... so you're evidence is basically "im right, he's bad". I say this because he has numberous closed door conversations with individual families of soldiers who died and I HAVE heard him talk about people by name. If that's the actions of someone who doesn't see these people as human beings, then I don't know what does. Do you want him to set up funeral plans for every single soldier who died? How bout for everyone who dies in every war on earth? What can convince an ideolog...

If you can show where he has referred to fallen soldiers by their name to their parents (rather than for political gain), then I'll gladly take back that piece of evidence. Incidentally, you'll also be restoring something of my faith in the basic decency of the guy.

I haven't seen such behavior, not once.

Can you show me where he has ever talked to a parent about their killed child, by name?

 

[Townsend]

Out of curiosity, what is the official statement that is conveyed to a spouse/child/parent/other family member of someone who dies a collateral death ? Or is there no such statement ?

I don't know but I hope it at least mentions what happened in which case it shouldn't be some rubber stamp letter along with a flag.

 

[pattylou]

It seems you have a lot more in common with Bush than you thought.

We have a lot in common. Why did you think I thought otherwise? And I have a lot in common with you, as well.

 

[Pengwuino]

(rather than for political gain)

What a cop out. If I point to any speech, you'll say its political gain and of course, closed door talks with parents don't exactly get recorded. Why waste my time with such ideological brainwashing...

 

[Pengwuino]

Out of curiosity, what is the official statement that is conveyed to a spouse/child/parent/other family member of someone who dies a collateral death ? Or is there no such statement ?

You mean like.. during a training accident? There probably is a statement... not sure anyone would know it off-hand.

Well I'm not wasting anymore time on this insanity-fest (not directed at you gokul). I think this kinda crap is the reason I vote Republican.

 

[Townsend]

We have a lot in common. Why did you think I thought otherwise? And I have a lot in common with you, as well.

You certainly don't have the decency to think about something beside politics long enough to realize there are good reasons to join the military even if it is during an unjust war.

That is a big enough difference that I don't we are anything alike.

 

[kat]

I'd start with the fact that he never refers to fallen sons by name, to their parents.

An outright lie or you're seriously misinformed.

 

[pattylou]

You are the one who doesn't understand people reasons for joining the military.

I think this is the basis of our disagreement.

I am speaking as a parent. You are speaking as an adult who would/did serve in the military.

I am talking about the "rightness" of me *saying* to my daughters "Joining the military is a good thing." Such a statement would be wrong for me to make. Me advising my kids to join the military is *not* a good thing, because our military's actions are serving primarily to create cost and loss for us in every area.

But, this is entirely different from my daughters coming to their own decision (at adulthood) about what is right and wrong in this regard. If they expressed deep convictions about the rightness of joining the military I would support them in that decision.

The original post was *not* "Is it wrong for kids to join the military?" Rather, the original post was "Is it immoral to *sell* kids on the military?"

It's two different questions. I realize you don't have children, and further that you have not buried any. I expect you recognize that your role as father will be different than your role as independent adult.

(Thank you for answering my questions.)

 

[pattylou]

An outright lie or you're seriously misinformed.

I'm always happy to be shown otherwise.

I'm talking about his conversations to parents. Prove me wrong.

 

[pattylou]

You certainly don't have the decency to think about something beside politics long enough to realize there are good reasons to join the military even if it is during an unjust war.

That is a big enough difference that I don't we are anything alike.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I feel otherwise.