Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

AI Thread Summary
The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant is facing significant challenges following the earthquake, with reports indicating that reactor pressure has reached dangerous levels, potentially 2.1 times capacity. TEPCO has lost control of pressure at a second unit, raising concerns about safety and management accountability. The reactor is currently off but continues to produce decay heat, necessitating cooling to prevent a meltdown. There are conflicting reports about an explosion, with indications that it may have originated from a buildup of hydrogen around the containment vessel. The situation remains serious, and TEPCO plans to flood the containment vessel with seawater as a cooling measure.
  • #851
TCups said:
I hope they had respirators or some type of filtered breathing apparatus.

Even a simple dust mask would provide substantial protection, but I would go for an organic vapors mask & cartridge with removable dust caps. Radioactive dust would tend to collect on such surfaces, but switching out dust pre-filters would be quick and easy.

The full face mask would also (which is sealed against the skin) prevent air from seeking a path of least resistance around its filter which could develop resistance too air flow because of dust and moist vapor from exhalation. Air goes in through the filters and out through a release valve. However, I've see several videos where simple dust masks are used (working around radioactively contaminated areas), go figure?
 
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  • #852
TCups said:
These data still do not contradict, and may in fact, support my contention that the explosion in Unit 3 was a combination of two things, hydrogen from delayed leakage of the primary containment and hydrogen from the SFP, vs an explosion immediately following hydrogen leakage from a damaged venting system in Unit 1, and delayed explosion of hydrogen only from the SFP of Unit 4.

Anton?
TCups neither you or I or any other forum contributer will determine the cause of hydrogen in Units 1, 2 and 3. Many will get Ph.D's in the future when studying this event.

I myself, as a problem solver, always look for common factors among multiple events, and will challenge easy or obvious solutions just to make every one think a bit deeper.

Here is another idea, the buildings are pretty air tight and normally under pressure so nothing can escape. Stale air is vented after scrubbing and cleaning, this I think happens at a common scrubbing station to the south of the plant next to the souther exhaust stack. Now my mad idea, what happened if building 4 distributed the hydrogen via the scrubber to all the other buildings, people where entering these to work on valves and check on the reactor, so doors would be open and possibly some vents if they exist, this would not have been necessary at unit 4 as nobody would want to enter unit 4, so if unit 4 started to pressurize as all doors are closed it would set up a transfer of air to the other buildings via the exhaust air venting system. One needs the air conditioning and venting details to check this.

As I said I can have some weird and un-imaginable ideas.Follow the pipes to the south (top o picture) exhaust stacks
http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/featured_images/japan_earthquaketsu_fukushima_daiichiov_march14_2011_dg.jpg"

Watch left exhaust stack (northen side) what is happening there? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxAHoxEvv7Y&feature=related (9-14 and 20-25 seconds)
 
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  • #853
Where did UCS/All Things Nuclear find their information for the number of fuel elements in reactor 4's spent fuel pool? From memory, I believe their first number referenced two newspaper articles in Japanese. Again, from memory, I believe this was the number picked up by the NY Times (1479):
| http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/16/world/asia/reactors-status.html

The most recent figure of 1331 fuel elements from UCS/All Things Nuclear does not explicitly furnish the references:
| http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/4008511524/more-on-spent-fuel-pools-at-fukushima

After a couple of days of interrogation, the French agency IRSN said last week that it had a "confirmed" number of 1500 fuel rods in reactor 4's spent fuel pool. This seems like a suspiciously round number, given that its "confirmed" counts for reactors 1 to 3 were 292, 587, and 514 respectively.

There is more information about the fuel pools in this recent documentation:
| http://resources.nei.org/documents/japan/Used_Fuel_Pools_Key_Facts_March_16_Update.pdf

The following slide presentation (2 different links to the same document) mainly concerns dry storage and plans for future off-site storage, but it also contains information about onsite storage at Fukushima Daiichi:
| http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/accidents/6-1_powerpoint.pdf
| http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/Containment%20Pools.pdf

The LA Times published a story with information from the NRC. The NRC believed it had "compelling evidence" that the reactor 4 spent fuel pool had a significant hole or crack and was empty. This evidence was "provided by key American contractors who were in the plant at the time".
| http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-japan-quake-wrapup-20110318,0,1937413,full.story
The evidence to date, I believe, contradicts NRC's conclusion.

The French agency IRSN concluded that reactor 3's spent fuel pool was compromised, leaving as little as one meter of water (worst case) over the top of the fuel rods. In addition, I suppose all the pools could have some kind of cracks or slow leaks.

Last week IRSN was calculating how long it would take for the spent fuel pools to start boiling. Because reactor 4's pool has the most uranium, their calculations had it boiling first (on Monday of this week, I believe). But I suspect these calculations assumed a full pool. Boiling would start earlier if the pool water level were low.

Various reasons for fuel pool low water level have already been discussed in this thread -- here are some related links and short quotes.

| http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/18/world/asia/18spent.html?pagewanted=all
Sloshing in California: "… much of the water may have sloshed out during the earthquake. Much smaller earthquakes in California have produced heavy water losses from sloshing at storage pools there, partly because the pools are located high in reactor buildings."

| http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/...amaged-nuclear-plant-spread-radiation-worries
Sloshing in Japan: "Masashi Goto, a former Toshiba Corporation design engineer of nuclear containment vessels of the kind used in the Dai-1 Plant, said another possibility was 'sloshing': the water may have sloshed out of the storage pool due to the earthquake's shaking. Goto said this kind of splashing happened in 2007: 'This is what happened during the Kashiwazaki (Nuclear) Plant accident after the earthquake struck it and sloshed water outside the pool.'"

| http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/3964225685/possible-source-of-leaks-at-spent-fuel-pools-at
| http://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear_power/nuclear_power_risk/safety/nuclear-crisis-japan-telepress-transcript-03-19-11.html
Gate seal deflation: "At the Hatch plant, it took, I think, about four or five hours for the inflatable seal to deflate, and 141,000 gallons of water, about half of the water of the spent fuel pool, leaked out through that little gap between the gate and the walls."

Here is a reference to general gate damage, which says there are in fact two gates in the pool inclosure. I suppose the second gate is used for removing spent fuel (and also for bringing in new fuel, although the water cover would be unnecessary for this).
| http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/world/asia/19japan.html?pagewanted=all
"The steel gates at either end of the storage pool are also vulnerable to damage during an earthquake and could leak water if they no longer close tightly."

The explosion in the reactor 4 building blew out the metal roof panels. The French agency IRSN noted that this explosion also blew out the east and south concrete walls, and inferred that the explosion occurred (also?) underneath the service deck.

For the explosion in the reactor 4 building, most of the discussion I've seen on the internet concludes that it was a hydrogen explosion, with the the presence of hydrogen requiring the exposure of fuel rods in the pool. The French agency IRSN was the first source I saw that concluded the hydrogen was from radiolysis in the pool.

| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spent_fuel_pool
"Radiolysis, the dissociation of molecules by radiation, is of particular concern in wet storage, as water may be split by residual radiation and hydrogen gas may accumulate increasing the risk of explosions. For this reason the air in the room of the pools, as well as the water, must permanently be monitored and treated."

That little half-page Wikipedia discussion is not a great reference, but I have not found much else. A couple of online discussions I've read did mention the possibility of radiolysis as the source of the hydrogen, but dismissed this possibility. I wonder if hydrogen/oxygen bleeding into the building would be enhanced if the pool level were low and the water boiling (i.e., in this case would there be less recombination in the pool and thus more gas escaping into the air?).

While searching for info, I did run across this off-subject suggestion of using the pool water to generate hydrogen fuel:
| http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2010/0072074.html

For the hydrogen explosions in reactors 1 and 3, most explanations refer to the venting of hydrogen (formed by the reaction of steam with hot cladding). Pool radiolysis could also contribute, although there is much less fuel in these pools than in the reactor 4 pool. I do not understand exactly where this gas would vented. The following discussion explains more about the venting process than I want to know as well as the role of carbonized coconut shells in nuclear reactors (without explaining exactly where the gas would be vented):
| http://www.electronicspoint.com/see-if-you-think-might-dangerous-t178032p2.html
(See the long post, the final post in that thread as I write this.)

There is an interesting alternative source of hydrogen:
" … my view a far more plausible explanation is that hydrogen routinely injected in the Make Up Water System to control the corrosives (mainly O2) produced by radiolysis was released suddenly and catastrophically from outside the containment and within the reactor building. In reacting with oxygen from the atmosphere within the building at the correct concentration of hydrogen (4-74%) only a spark is required to detonate a hydrogen oxygen explosion."
| http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/14/fukushima-more-technical-info/
Follow this link for additional discussion of this possibility. I wonder if the reactor 4 building also contained a hydrogen inventory, despite the fact that the reactor was unloaded?

A couple of general references:

Here is a discussion of containment structures, with diagrams of the GE Mark I confinement structure. This document has been very recently posted or updated, for it already contains a reference to the Fukushima incident. Note that Table 4 says that 2 US Mark I systems have reinforced concrete confinement structures, while 22 have steel confinement structures. I suppose the steel structures also are surrounded by concrete for biological shielding. I wonder which design is used in Japan?
| https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/mragheb/www/NPRE%20457%20CSE%20462%20Safety%20Analysis%20of%20Nuclear%20Reactor%20Systems/Containment%20Structures.pdf
"A venting system was in place at the Fukushima plants to help relieve built-up pressure. With electrical power cut off in the aftermath of the earthquake and backup sources of power either failing or exhausted, workers injected seawater mixed with boron into the reactor to maintain control reportedly using fire engines pumps. They had difficulty venting the resulting steam with a report that the pressure relief valves were operated manually."

I was once a research physicist (not nuclear). Now I am particularly interested this problem because I am an investor in would-be uranium miners (at least, since last week when their stock prices fell, I am an investor). Besides wanting to know how probable a real disaster is at Fukushima, I'm interested in the reaction of the Chinese and Indian public and government (these countries have the largest planned reactor building programs), the reactions of other investors, etc. The following is a long rapidly assembled report which takes a high level view of this incident (such as power generation and electricity shortages in Japan, Asian reactions, etc.)
| http://www.nautilus.org/
| http://www.nautilus.org/publications/essays/napsnet/reports/SRJapanReactors.pdf
 
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  • #854
Just pulled this...

"Iodine 131 detected in Tokyo hit 12,000 becquerels, compared with the previous day: a tenfold increase in both radioactive Iodine and Cesium." As for Hitachinaka City, which according to SPEEDI has seen a surge in radiation over the past 24 hours, things are far worse: "Hitachinaka City, Ibaraki Prefecture, saw the highest radioactive values recorded, with 12,000 becquerels of cesium, iodine and 85,000 becquerels."

Per Asahi (google translated):

Ministry of Education, under the influence of Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant accident, announced the results of such measurements with radioactive dust fell from the sky. Tended to increase mainly in metropolitan areas. 5300 becquerels per square meter of cesium in Shinjuku, Tokyo 137,3 detection of iodine 131 becquerels 12,000, compared with the previous day, rose about 10 times the concentration of both. The values ??that affect health, but prolonged monitoring is needed.

Measurement of radioactive fallout, we put the nation at 9:00 am on October 22 from 9 am to 21 the ministry, were analyzed.

The value of Tokyo, yesterday's Cs 560 Becquerel, Becquerel 2900 soared from iodine. Announced value of the cesium 22, 8 / 1 40,000 becquerels of radiation controlled area reference value, iodine value, amount to five quarters.

The values of cesium in other municipalities, the 1600 Becquerel Saitama City (790 becquerels day), Kofu, 400 becquerels (the non-detection), Utsunomiya 440 becquerels (250 becquerels same), and rose across the board.

The day before, in Hitachinaka City, Ibaraki Prefecture, the highest values ??were recorded, although down slightly, 12,000 becquerels of cesium, iodine and 85,000 becquerels, still higher values ??are recorded. Fukushima and Miyagi can not be measured.

In the east, where it snowed a lot of rain and dust and floating in the atmosphere, believed to have dropped radioactive material. The short half-life of iodine, 8 days half-life of cesium in 30 years, continue serving after getting off the ground a long period of radiation. Soil and water, because it could lead to radioactive contamination of agricultural products, should continue to monitor future.
 
  • #855
bondboy said:
Just pulled this...

"Iodine 131 detected in Tokyo hit 12,000 becquerels, compared with the previous day: a tenfold increase in both radioactive Iodine and Cesium." As for Hitachinaka City, which according to SPEEDI has seen a surge in radiation over the past 24 hours, things are far worse: "Hitachinaka City, Ibaraki Prefecture, saw the highest radioactive values recorded, with 12,000 becquerels of cesium, iodine and 85,000 becquerels."
Weather conditions would push the plume over Tokyo today
 
  • #856
fusefiz said:
Where did UCS/All Things Nuclear find their information ...[/url]

fusefiz thank you for an in-depth contribution
 
  • #857
I have been studiously avoiding network news coverage of the Fukushima situation. The coverage is pretty meaningless. I also studiously avoid all of the chatter about radiation exposure and the hyper-phobia most have about it. Instead, I have just been trying to figure out what the pictures I see mean and what really happened and why.

Edited to remove my soapbox moment.
 
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  • #858
TCups said:
I have been studiously avoiding network news coverage of the Fukushima situation. The coverage is pretty meaningless. I also studiously avoid all of the chatter about radiation exposure and the hyper-phobia most have about it. Instead, I have just been trying to figure out what the pictures I see mean and what really happened and why.

Edited to remove my soapbox moment.

Oh, but I did enjoy the bit about Knut, you did bring the point home
 
  • #859
AntonL said:
Oh, but I did enjoy the bit about Knut, you did bring the point home

I suspect it was the radiation that got him.

Want to see how long the average American's attention span is and how big a deal the death toll and human suffering in Japan are? Cruise the headlines on Drudge today: http://www.drudgereport.com/

Enough said.
 
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  • #860
TCups said:
Enough said.
but I have to add, just read that taxidermy will preserve Knut for eternity

end of off topic discussion
 
  • #861
yeah sorry, didn't mean to add to the udue hysteria currently plaguing the MSM. The levels are miniscule. I wouldn't characterize it as hormesis but at that specific activity, you're not going to see any hair loss or alteration in blood counts. The real concern IMO is contaminated food/water supplies where you can build up a concentration of slowly decaying gamma emitters which could pick off your bone marrow over time. Pancytopenia -> Death.
I'll try to control myself moving forward...:)
 
  • #862
bondboy said:
yeah sorry, didn't mean to add to the udue hysteria currently plaguing the MSM. The levels are miniscule. I wouldn't characterize it as hormesis but at that specific activity, you're not going to see any hair loss or alteration in blood counts. The real concern IMO is contaminated food/water supplies where you can build up a concentration of slowly decaying gamma emitters which could pick off your bone marrow over time. Pancytopenia -> Death.
I'll try to control myself moving forward...:)

No harm done to anyone who has any clear idea of what "becquerels" are.

BTW, what are "becquerels"?

And speaking of repair of sub-lethal radiation exposure, did you know that caffein was a very potent inhibitor of reverse DNA transcriptase? I am drinking a cup of coffee even now.
 
  • #863
TCups said:
No harm done to anyone who has any clear idea of what "becquerels" are.

BTW, what are "becquerels"?

And speaking of repair of sub-lethal radiation exposure, did you know that caffein was a very potent inhibitor of reverse DNA transcriptase? I am drinking a cup of coffee even now.

Yes, and moderate doses can help prevent kidney stones:-)
 
  • #864
AntonL said:
but I have to add, just read that taxidermy will preserve Knut for eternity

end of off topic discussion

(But then, so would a sufficient dose of gamma radiation, right?)

Finished.
 
  • #865
TCups said:
(But then, so would a sufficient dose of gamma radiation, right?)

Finished.
No, you'd have to bag him to prevent the bacteria from coming back...

Reminds me, why the hell aren't we irradiating excess food to feed hungry people?
 
  • #866


AntonL said:
Here is a time line of the explosions.
Unit 1 - 12.03.2011 at 15:36
Unit 3 - 14.03.2011 at 11:01
Unit 4 - 15.03.2011 at 06:14
Unit 2 - 15.03.2011 at 06:20

I can't believe no one has taken the time to answer this. If I can pull the possible earthquakes, I will. Are these local times, or UTC times?
 
  • #867
Today there has been a sharp increase in earthquake activity
table below shows number of quakes their average intensity
and listing the strength of quakes over strength 6
unfortunately I have no longer the data to take back to 11/3

date No Avg >6
22/3 34 5.6 - 6.6 6.6 6.4
21/3 20 4.9 - 0
20/3 35 5.0 - 0
19/3 32 5.1 - 6.1
18/3 29 5.0 - 0
17/3 36 5.2 - 6.1
16/3 42 5.1 - 6.0
 
  • #868
The possibility of "another big one" is the unspoken fear of everyone here, I suppose. We speculate on what has already happened, but the truth is, a repeat event with the current state of affairs in Fukushima would be -- what? -- I don't even know the word to use. . .

Which, BTW, begs the other HUGE, but as yet unmentioned potential problem at Fukushima -- the 7th SFP, the big one, out back. I wonder what is happening there. Anyone know which building it is on the satellite photos?
 
  • #869
TCups said:
Which, BTW, begs the other HUGE, but as yet unmentioned potential problem at Fukushima -- the 7th SFP, the big one, out back. I wonder what is happening there. Anyone know which building it is on the satellite photos?

On 19.03.2011 at 09:00 the temperature was 57 °C
Water was added 21.03.2011 from 10:37 to 15:30 into SFP 7.
The temperature on 21.03.2011 at 16:30 was 61 °C.

I believe I read somewhere, but cannot confirm, the roof has also been holed to vent any H2
 
  • #870
TCups said:
No harm done to anyone who has any clear idea of what "becquerels" are.

BTW, what are "becquerels"?

Becquerel is a measure of activity or decay events per second. As in 10 Bq 137Cs /m3 air would indicate that in an air sample of 1m3 volume of air ten atoms of 137Cs disintegrated or underwent decay per second (and in doing so each of the ten 137Cs atoms that decayed released a beta particle and some gamma rays in the process but that is more specific to the decay properties of 137Cs and not Bqs).

As you can appreciate 1 or 10 atoms is a very small amount of matter. Though the total number of 137Cs atoms present is much higher given the moderate half life of ~30 yrs for 137Cs, it is the activity or emission of radiation events that Bq is a measure of.

For Kicks:

Activity of 137Cs (lets use 10Bq) = total # 137Cs atoms present x decay constant for 137Cs (0.023) which we can rearrange and solve: activity per year /.023 = 315360000 /.023 = 13711304348 137Cs atoms present or 3.11924E-12 g or 3.12 pico grams if my math is correct.
 
  • #871
It's high time that the US government got serious about long-term storage of nuclear fuel and waste. The decommissioned Maine Yankee plant has 64 dry storage casks on-site here. IIR, 60 of the casks are full of spent fuel and 4 have contaminated waste in them. This situation is playing out all over the country in a dangerous slow-motion dance. At least Maine Yankee's SFP and required active cooling systems have been mothballed in favor of the casks, but now the casks need to go somewhere.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110322/ap_on_bi_ge/us_japan_quake_us_spent_fuel;_ylt=AozyhDVciZHLnztIjgGVm62s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTFoOTU5bTY5BHBvcwMxNwRzZWMDYWNjb3JkaW9uX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHNsawNhcGltcGFjdHVzc3A-
 
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  • #872
http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/featured_images/japan_earthquaketsu_fukushima_daiichiov_march14_2011_dg.jpg

From that layout it looks like the ground level in that area was significantly higher (guessing maybe 10 to 15 metres or so - see the man made escarpments around the south and west of the site) than it is now so when they were building the plant they must have decided to excavate right down to sea level possibly partly for ease of docking materials etc and possibly partly to limit the impact of the plant on the landscape. There are probably plenty of other reasons as well.

It's not a judgement on the original decision as no doubt they had their reasons but in an area of known tsunamis did they think that the plant wouldn't be affected by them otherwise the critical plant zones look as if they could easily have been built at a higher level.

I realize everything's easier in hindsight of course.

Is that the spent fuel rod common pool at centre bottom of that photo as it seems to have a similar layout to the schematics published.
 
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  • #873
Arcer said:
http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/featured_images/japan_earthquaketsu_fukushima_daiichiov_march14_2011_dg.jpg

From that layout it looks like the ground level in that area was significantly higher (guessing maybe 10 to 15 metres or so - see the man made escarpments around the south and west of the site) than it is now so when they were building the plant they must have decided to excavate right down to sea level possibly partly for ease of docking materials etc and possibly partly to limit the impact of the plant on the landscape. There are probably plenty of other reasons as well.

It's not a judgement on the original decision as no doubt they had their reasons but in an area of known tsunamis did they think that the plant wouldn't be affected by them otherwise the critical plant zones look as if they could easily have been built at a higher level.

I realize everything's easier in hindsight of course.

Maybe when they built the plant 40 years ago nobody saw any reason for concern, but there was a prediction for a very large quake in the same area the quake took place. Emergency planning should have considered an extended complete power loss situation, considering the level of dependence on outside power.
 
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  • #875
M. Bachmeier said:
Maybe when they built the plant 40 years ago nobody saw any reason for concern, but there was a prediction for a very large quake in the same area the quake took place. Emergency planning should have considered an extended complete power loss situation, considering the level of dependence on outside power.

40 years ago - 1971. The year I graduated HS. I started college at an obscure engineering school -- GMI, working for a now defunct auto company -- Oldsmobile. My state of the art calculator was a Post Versalog slide rule. If I had had my current laptop and tower configuration computers (both Macs, BTW) complete with software and 32" hi-res color monitors, then I would have been considered a god-like figure from some planet far advanced over the mere Earthlings at the time, I suspect.

Just saying, technology has changed. The real danger to anyone fearful of nuclear power is, demonstrably, in NOT building new nuclear plants and adequate disposal facilities. And the cost of doing it is offset by the cost, for example, of the cleanup of a facility like Fukushima, not to mention that the return on investment for doing it correctly will be clean, safe power, independent of OPEC and oil spills, not a concrete sarcophagus to be monitored another few hundred years.

The current climate of fear of nuclear accidents and uncertainty about oil is, in fact, a golden opportunity to drive that point home to everyone who will listen!

Nuclear power is already with us. So, we can either keep driving a 1971 Oldsmobile Cutlass, which was a great vehicle for its day, and hope it doesn't break down, or, we can buy a new 2011 Honda Accord (or, I guess, walk). But however we choose to travel, we still have a long road to travel, just with different destinations.

I know which trip I have in mind and I know what I would rather be riding in, and which my kids and grandkids would be safer riding in. It's time to decommission some old plants, build some much better new ones and to cut the political crap and deal effectively with the safe storage and reprocessing of nuclear waste. We have the technology at hand. We seem to lack the political will.

What a dismal history for technology that our generation spent all the time, effort and risk to amass nuclear arsenals that no sane person would ever use and that we politically hamstring something less risky, like nuclear power, with such a wonderful return on investment, if we just have the political will to do it.
 
  • #877
The light's on at reactor 3's control room, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12825342" .

In the article they say that "Meanwhile, the UN's nuclear watchdog says radiation is still leaking from the quake-hit plant, but scientists are unsure exactly where it is coming from."

But they are walking right there, see picture
_51794833_011591960-1.jpg

How could they not be able to ascertain where the radiation is coming from?
 
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  • #878
AntonL said:
filling of unit 4 SFP by concrete lifter
[PLAIN]http://bilder.bild.de/BILD/news/fotos/2011/03/22/japan-ticker/SONDERKONDITIONEN__20257190__MBQF-1300804062,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,height=349.jpg

I am amazed by the protection suits, two piece, open collar, construction helmet ...
Compare to clothing in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aprycG9mlZc&feature=relmfu

and workers/inspectors then drive home in their cars, I presume after a hosing down, but is that effective?

Since, the radiological protection staff at the reactors and emergency center are very competent, and you or I do not know the radiological situation being shown...then what you see is appropriate. Quit slamming stuff you probably know nothing about.
 
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  • #879
A new video - spraying closeup to #3:
http://video.asahi.com/viewvideo.jspx?Movie=48464141/48464141peevee378318.flv
 
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  • #880
Hi all, I'm new on this forum and have been following this thread for several days now (I have still some pages to read!), a thread where i found some valuable and interesting info and reflexions on what's going on there...

I'm a mechanical engineer (I'm from France) and as many of you, I'm seeking to understand what happened and is still happening in Fukushima plant. I' have several elements/questions or sources to bring to the discussion hoping to contribute to it as I've been doing intensive search and "digest" of information on this event since the very beginning, as i did 25 years ago when i was a student willing to fully understand what happened in Tchernobyl (and as you know probably, at that time, information was scarce and disinformation here in France has been blatant from autorities and nuclear regulation agencies and lobbies (a trial is still going on on this matter).

At first, i' would like to react to the recent posts concerning the general layout of the plant and more particularly the low altitude of the platform on which it is built regarding to the proximity of the sea level. We all understand how critical this point has been regarding to the tsunami and the cause of loss of power on site due to flooding of the backup generators.

I would like to draw your attention to a TEPCO document that i found today in which this company reassessed in 2010 the "safety" of its plants regarding to tsunamis, especially after the Chile tsunami the 28th of February 2010. I give the direct link to where to find this document (I plan to send this info to several medias here in France):

http://www.jnes.go.jp/seismic-symposium10/presentationdata/3_sessionB/B-11.pdf

It is a presentation of a Tepco study (see logos on the doc) done in 2010, and its conclusions were presented by a certain Andou Hiroshige at a symposium held the 24th to 26th of November 2010 - SO PRETTY RECENTLY- at Niigata Institute of Technology, Kashiwazaki, Niigata, Japan ( see the site here http://www.jnes.go.jp/seismic-symposium10/ ).

The document is called Tsunami Assessment for Nuclear Power Plants in Japan and include a study for the Fukushima Daiichi power plant.

Conclusions of the study are, based on this presentation (see page 15):

"We assessed and confirmed the safety of nuclear power plants based on the JSCE method which was published in 2002".

The simulation done relates to hypothesis ending up with a maximum tsunami wave height at Fukushima plant of... 5,7m, to be compared to the actual height mesured on site by Tepco after the disaster (on the walls of the buildings) of 14 METERS! This is JUST a 145% underestimation...

As you maybe know, the european authorities have decided to conduct "stress tests" (like for the banks!) on all the nuclear plants in europe but i would like to ask this question:

What kind of science is it when you end up with calculations that fall 145% under the reality that happens a few months after? The order of magnitude of error is enormous, and this is even more obvious when you take into account the fact that the highest tsunami waves in history have even been bigger than 35 meters it seems.

5,7m seems very very low, even after "torough computerized" calculations...

Questions:

1) Is it that kind of science that is supposed to justify pre-determined decisions (the plant was built for a long time!) after the fact, where somebody has to "fine tune" the inputs so the output fits the political or economical goals determined by others (which are maybe your boss?)?

2) If yes, can it be called "risks assessement"? Or should it be called "cost optimization by redefinition of what natural catastrophes SHOULD BE" (instead of WILL BE)?

3) Is it normal that this assessment is only done by the company (which tends to naturally apply "point 2 science") and not the autorities or any "regulation" or "safety" agency? (As you see, we are not far from the banks situation... with other consequences of course).

Further trial will (hopefully) give some comprehensive answers. As you probably know, we learned today or yesterday that TEPCO didn't insure its Fukushima plant for its own degradation after August 2010 because TEPCO found the insurance cost too high (and by law there are not obliged to get an insurance for themselves). They are still responsible for degradations to "others" but there is an exclusion case when related to "natural disasters" ( see this article in French for further info: http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/20...09-fukushima-site-plus-assure-depuis-2010.php ).

If you link this info to the point above, one question arises: does a "natural disaster" starts with a wave (under) estimated at 5,7m or should it be at more than 14m? Because in the first case, why not assess the worst case scenario at 2 meters and then regular high tides will probably become a natural disaster?

This point of discussion is critical in all industries, but obviously even more in the nuclear one as we see it now...
 
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  • #881
5.7m vs 14m is a factor of about 2.5, not "an order of magnitude" or 10X, right?

Would everyone feel better if they had accurately calculated the possibility of 14m wave a few months earlier, as the outcome would very likely be no different?

It was a big mistake, yes, first made 40 years ago, and it was another big mistake not to have corrected it. But even if they had, the death toll of the natural disaster that struck Japan would be very little affected.

Thank goodness all the reactor sites in France are probably better engineered and better risk assessed against any such disaster, we shall hope.

I predict Japan and Japan's nuclear energy industry will recover and that they will build a higher sea wall next time, and have better designed reactor facilities. Then, a volcano will probably erupt and back-fill the sea wall with hot lava, most likely.

The history of mankind tells me that as a species, we have never been very good at any point in history at predicting the worst case scenario of any potential natural disaster, be it plague, volcano, ice age or meteor impact (except maybe for Noah, and he had God to tell him how big an ark he should build for the coming flood).

PS: Mankind's history of major success from the "well-intended" interventions of authorities, regulatory bodies, and safety organizations has not always been that great either, IMO.

PPS: Is 9.0 on the Richter Scale 10X larger than an 8.0 earthquake? If so, then, logarithmically speaking, maybe they only missed it by a couple of decimal points.

But your point is well made and acknowledged. Something to think about.
 
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  • #882
Sorry, i misused the terms "order of magnitude" (from a scientific stand point) but it's more a french to english translation mistake from me i think (because "ordre de grandeur" in french doesn't necessarily mean factor x10 in common language). Sorry again for the bad expression.

Would everyone feel better if they had accurately calculated the possibility of 14m wave a few months earlier, as the outcome would very likely be no different?

My answer to this question relates to how this happened to be so severely underestimated...

If it's a mistake, i think it's a "big" mistake if i only judge the "calculation to experience inaccuracy". If it ends up not to be a mistake but "something else" (inquiry will tell, hopefully), then this is even more problematic because anyone can then doubt of safety policy in general... (case one ends up with the same questions and doubts, but mistakes are socially more understandable -and maybe correctable- than lies or fraud for example, IMO).

Concerning earthquakes magnitudes (correct me if I'm wrong) a 9 magnitude earthquake involves 30 times more energy and 10 times more displacement than an 8.

So of course one can always say that the mistake is maybe only 1 out of 8 of course, but...
 
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  • #883
jlduh said:
Sorry, i misused the terms "order of magnitude" (from a scientific stand point) but it's more a french to english translation mistake from me i think (because "ordre de grandeur" in french doesn't necessarily mean factor x10 in common language). Sorry again for the bad expression.

jlduh - No worries, friend. Everyone understands your feelings and thoughts you expressed here. And I understand the concerns you correctly express. Know that it is just my - there must be a French word for it - "wry" sense of humor coming through in the post. Heaven knows I myself have made a lot of big mistakes and massive misjudgments these last 40 years. Attempting to translate my thought in French would surely be one of them. You know what they say -- a person who speaks more than one language = multilingual. A person who speaks only one language = American.

PS: welcome to the forum, and I did remember the French word -- something like merde, I believe.
 
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  • #884
jlduh said:
So of course one can always say that the mistake is maybe only 1 out of 8 of course, but...

jlduh: many years ago, when I first studied engineering before I switched to medicine, the terms we used to apply to such calculations and errors were "WAG" and "SWAG", if you know those.
 
  • #885
jlduh said:
We all understand how critical this point has been regarding to the tsunami and the cause of loss of power on site due to flooding of the backup generators.

I would like to draw your attention to a TEPCO document that i found today in which this company reassessed in 2010 the "safety" of its plants regarding to tsunamis, especially after the Chile tsunami the 28th of February 2010. I give the direct link to where to find this document (I plan to send this info to several medias here in France):

http://www.jnes.go.jp/seismic-symposium10/presentationdata/3_sessionB/B-11.pdf

It is a presentation of a Tepco study (see logos on the doc) done in 2010, and its conclusions were presented by a certain Andou Hiroshige at a symposium held the 24th to 26th of November 2010 - SO PRETTY RECENTLY- at Niigata Institute of Technology, Kashiwazaki, Niigata, Japan ( see the site here http://www.jnes.go.jp/seismic-symposium10/ ).

The document is called Tsunami Assessment for Nuclear Power Plants in Japan and include a study for the Fukushima Daiichi power plant.

Conclusions of the study are, based on this presentation (see page 15):

"We assessed and confirmed the safety of nuclear power plants based on the JSCE method which was published in 2002".

The simulation done relates to hypothesis ending up with a maximum tsunami wave height at Fukushima plant of... 5,7m, to be compared to the actual height mesured on site by Tepco after the disaster (on the walls of the buildings) of 14 METERS! This is JUST a 145% underestimation...

As a skeptic - In 2010 TEPCO financed study estimated tsunami heights to values that will prove that the nuclear power plants are safe. If TEPCO simply listed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_tsunamis" wave heights they would have been forced to close down. Further, the standard Tsunami was estimated in a 2002 why was this not updated with the 2004 indian ocean tsunami experience which had a wave height of 33 meters.

Interesting would be to know if the design level of the NPP was dictated by operational needs such as basements, natural fall of outlet water, etc or a Tsunami study.

Economics dictates reason.
 
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  • #886
"Economics dictates reason"

No, economics IS reason, it's just that its basic assumptions and hypotheses are rather iffy.
I'd agree that an empirical approach to recorded tsunami heights would appear to have been a sounder route, although I haven't read that report. Nevertheless, the way I understand it, the current problems would have been mitigated if only the emergency power supplies would have been constructed to withstand the extra tsunami height over the design assumptions.
A nuclear power plant designed to withstand an earthquake would no doubt structurally resist the additional loading caused by a 14 meter instead of a 6 meter tsunami. It appears that it is the relatively "soft" infrastructure that was the culprit here.
 
  • #887
Reno Deano said:
AntonL said:
filling of unit 4 SFP by concrete lifter
[PLAIN]http://bilder.bild.de/BILD/news/fotos/2011/03/22/japan-ticker/SONDERKONDITIONEN__20257190__MBQF-1300804062,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,height=349.jpg

I am amazed by the protection suits, two piece, open collar, construction helmet ...
Compare to clothing in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aprycG9mlZc&feature=relmfu

and workers/inspectors then drive home in their cars, I presume after a hosing down, but is that effective?
Since, the radiological protection staff at the reactors and emergency center are very competent, and you or I do not know the radiological situation being shown...then what you see is appropriate. Quit slamming stuff you probably know nothing about.
A site cleared a day earlier by military armoured vehicle, heavy steel protecting the operator

and compared to this
[URL]http://www.datapple.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/05990_radiation-check-japan.jpg[/URL]


amazed skeptic using common sense
 
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  • #888
T-Cups and Antoni must be auditioning for Fox or one of the other news groups. Using limited knowledge, convoluted science, and conjucture. BTW, radiologically clearing a place and entering a cleared place are to diametrically opposites. Evidently you have not worked in contaminated areas or had to cleared them. Pictures do not always tell the whole story...that is how Fox news and others get attention. Have you got enough yet?
 
  • #889
Off topic: fuzefiz you wrote: "I was once a research physicist (not nuclear). Now I am particularly interested this problem because I am an investor in would-be uranium miners (at least, since last week when their stock prices fell, I am an investor)."

IMO, you need to be careful because (especially in small cap stocks): massive illegal naked bear co-ordinated short attacks can and do occur and the SEC does not have (or refuses to deploy) the resources to combat them. I don't think they will attack uranium miner stocks because the bear raiders are more likely to attack green energy stocks (due to the nature of their political beliefs--although nuclear power is in a sense green energy if contained properly and the waste issue is resolved). I have been in contact with the SEC and with one Senator's office regarding one of the illegal attacks (although many are on going at any moment in time).
 
  • #890
I wanted to post a second contribution consisting of a link towards a video (quite long because of translation, but detailed) that i don't think has been posted here and that may be very valuable from several points of view to understand what's going on in the reactors.

It's on the CNIC site (which is a Citizens' Nuclear Information Center) and is a press conference (Archive link to March 18, 2011) and explanation (Japanese and English) by nuclear engineer Mitsuhiko Tanaka who worked on design of pressure vessel of Fukushima Daiichi Reactor 4, and then (after 1h35) by Dr Masashi Goto who worked on design of containment vessels of Mark 1 BWR reactors like the ones used at the Fukushima Daiichi.

It seems these are guys who know about what they are talking about.

You will also have the occasion to review various schematics and pictures of the actual installations, especially a picture of the internal top floor of reactor n°6 (if my understanding is right) which is shown from the very beginning of the conference. The picture was taken 25 years ago during a periodic inspection (below is an image copied from the video with the printscreen key of my laptop):

http://www.netimago.com/image_181276.html

Link to video: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/13410573

You have other links to videos of conferences (not always translated/interpreted from japanese) on the main page:

http://www.cnic.jp/english/topics/safety/earthquake/fukushima.html
 
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  • #891
Reno Deano said:
T-Cups and Antoni must be auditioning for Fox or one of the other news groups. Using limited knowledge, convoluted science, and conjucture.

LOL -- you mean "WAG's & SWAG's", right? OK, I get your drift, sir.

Later all, and thanks to everyone for the info, insight and critique. I learned a lot, even if I failed the audition, Reno. Sorry if I became tiresome.

Respectfully, etc.
 
  • #892
_51794833_011591960-1.jpg
I guess that the dirty dark brown wavy line on those cream coloured buildings in the background might be a tsunami tidemark (or it could be explosion dust or debris or something else but the wavy dark brown stuff doesn't seem to be that deep elsewhere - for example on the roofs behind) maybe giving an indication of the eventual water level within the site although the water could have gone even higher and left that debris on what, at distance, appears to be a ledge or a roof? as the water receded.

If that's what it is it's a bit puzzling why there doesn't seem to be any visible water marking on the nearby taller buildings as the tsunami water was supposed to be metres deep. Is there any other evidence elsewhere of how high the tsunami was within the site.

I imagine at that sort of height the water as well as getting into the reactor buildings it could have backed up into all sort of site pipes and site tunnels etc causing all sorts of blockages to whatever was supposed to be flowing along them.
 
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  • #893
AntonL said:
As a skeptic - In 2010 TEPCO financed study estimated tsunami heights to values that will prove that the nuclear power plants are safe. If TEPCO simply listed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_tsunamis" wave heights they would have been forced to close down. Further, the standard Tsunami was estimated in a 2002 why was this not updated with the 2004 indian ocean tsunami experience which had a wave height of 33 meters.

Interesting would be to know if the design level of the NPP was dictated by operational needs such as basements, natural fall of outlet water, etc or a Tsunami study.

Economics dictates reason.
Well, perhaps there will be some kind of investigation as to why better tsunami defense was not provided, or at least, why the EGDs and supporting systems were placed in such a vulnerable location. Those decisions were made about 45 years ago. It's quite common for an institution and affiliates to continue an operation without re-visiting the original bases of the operation. If something has worked for 40+ years, why change?

One would have to review the FSAR or equivalent document, and the supporting documentation, e.g., a licensing topical report or equivalent, in order to determine the rationale behind the design basis. Then one can look at relevant events occurring in and around the time of the established design, and events since.

In 1964, there was a substantial earthquake and corresponding 8+ m tsunami event. Was that addressed in the Fukushima Daiichi design basis? If so, how?

How should a utility use relevant events after the design basis is accepted, the plant constructed and placed in operation?
 
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  • #894
TCups said:
Thank goodness all the reactor sites in France are probably better engineered and better risk assessed against any such disaster, we shall hope.
We are getting off topic pointing finger...

But as far as goodness is concerned.

According to French Nuclear Authority Fukushima situation could not happen in France because of better risk assessment: Break down of French risk assessment = [ Estimated Highest intensity recorded in the area (base an historical speculation)] x5 (factor five) (applied to an epicenter below the station..)
In other word if they assume that on a Richter scale they do not expect more than 7 , the power plant should be able to sustain a earthquake 7.2 in order to pass French safety guideline.
Reassured now, are we ?

Perspective:
I've read (but I have no evidence) that Fukushima NPP was build to sustain a 7.8 seismic event.. something as little about 40 time stronger hit it and it is still standing.. The reactor did shutdown, emergency cooling powered by batteries worked while they had juice..

@jlduh
Further more, tsunami's risk under assessment in Japan, really ? Are you having a laugh ? More that 100 000 Japanese experienced it first hand, I can not see Tepco as the odd one out on this one.
Mind your "Is it normal that this assessment is only done by the company (which tends to naturally apply "point 2 science") and not the autorities or any "regulation" or "safety" agency?" ... They all got it wrong.
 
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  • #896
Some question about the design limit for earthquakes: When they say that the reactors had been designed to resist an earthquake of magnitude 8, but the current earthquake had magnitude 9 there seems some information missing to me. Namely the earthquake did not occur directly under the reactor. IMO the design limits should refer to the amplitude of the seismic waves measured locally, not to the total energy released in a quake at some arbitrary location. What were the concrete limits? How strong were the seismic waves at the reactor site?
 
  • #897
jensjakob said:
A new video - spraying closeup to #3:
http://video.asahi.com/viewvideo.jspx?Movie=48464141/48464141peevee378318.flv
Nice to see more vid jens. I hear this morning there's a new plume of black smoke... which sounds very ominous. The working teams were then evacuated but I haven't heard if they've gone back in yet.
By the looks of their protection they can't be THAT concerned about radiation levels, which is a good sign.
I sincerely hope they get good cooling soon.
 
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  • #898
They are currently holding a press conference , where they express concern about the temperature in the core vessel

Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency announced in its news briefing held around 10:00 AM on March 23 that the core temperature exceed design value of 302℃ and reached almost 400℃ at Unit-1. Core cooling function was enhanced through increasing number of injection lines, given this s
 
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  • #899
And here they say it's the SFP that has reached 400C:
http://wallstreetpit.com/68105-fukushimas-reactor-1-core-reaches-400-degrees-celsius

"Another negative development in the world’s worst nuclear crisis in a quarter of a century is that the temperature at the spent fuel pools at Reactor No. 1 has reached 400 degrees celsius. This was at 380-390 degrees a few hours back."
(bold by me)

400C in an open water pool means no water
 
  • #900
Wallstreetpit got it Wrong (would not be the first time)

400° degree is the temp of the core temperature design was made to sustain 302°
Curent temp is 330°
 

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