Fukushima Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants Fukushima part 2

AI Thread Summary
A magnitude-5.3 earthquake struck Fukushima, Japan, prompting concerns due to its proximity to the damaged nuclear power plant from the 2011 disaster. The U.S. Geological Survey reported the quake occurred at a depth of about 13 miles, but no tsunami warning was issued. Discussions in the forum highlighted ongoing issues with tank leaks at the plant, with TEPCO discovering loosened bolts and corrosion, complicating monitoring efforts. There are plans for fuel removal from Unit 4, but similar structures will be needed for Units 1 and 3 to ensure safe decontamination. The forum also addressed the need for improved groundwater management and the establishment of a specialist team to tackle contamination risks.
  • #1,051
Interesting, Rive.
To me the fact that the blocks moved looked like a positive indication of steam release or some other explosive action from the inside, as I imagined that the hydrogen explosion could have only pushed down on the well plug...
I didn't know vacuum after the explosion can do that?!
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
  • #1,052
I can't be sure, too many things depends on how many space there is below those blocks. But it would fit with the low radiation.

This kind of 'blast effect negative phase' (you can google it) is generally associated with nuclear or thermobaric weapons/explosions and can be quite strong.

Ps.: as I think about this, the vacuum effect of a hydrogen explosion might be quite remarkable, since the result is water (vapour)? This would also fit. But again, I can't be sure, so it's just an idea. Might be completely baseless.
 
Last edited:
  • #1,053
The shield plugs are on top of the drywell head. You can stand on top of the plugs during operation with virtually no dose from the reactor. They are massive plugs.

The dose rates suggest that there was leakage from the drywell head into the area under the plugs.

As for vacuum, no idea why. A hydrogen explosion causes the blowout panels to break away. If the explosion was between the drywell head and plugs I suppose it's not impossible. But those drywell shield plugs are not a pressure retaining boundary. They are only for shielding and allow the drywell head cavity to be dry during operation.
 
  • #1,054
Hiddencamper said:
The shield plugs are on top of the drywell head. You can stand on top of the plugs during operation with virtually no dose from the reactor. They are massive plugs.

The dose rates suggest that there was leakage from the drywell head into the area under the plugs.

As for vacuum, no idea why. A hydrogen explosion causes the blowout panels to break away. If the explosion was between the drywell head and plugs I suppose it's not impossible. But those drywell shield plugs are not a pressure retaining boundary. They are only for shielding and allow the drywell head cavity to be dry during operation.
The radiation level on operating floor in U2 and U3 is around 200-800+ mS/h as I recall, and definitely has a peak around the plug.
The radiation level on the operating floor of U1 is below 100mS/h and has no peak around the plug.

For me this suggests that for U2 and U3 the drywell cap has failed and there was leakage through the plug.
However, in case of U1 for me this suggests that there was no leakage through the plug: the hydrogen (and the contaminated steam) come on a different way (so it could contaminate the whole floor without peaks).

Regarding the vacuum part: when an explosion occurs, right after the expanding phase the center rapidly cools down (in case of hydrogen: the water partially condensates) and so creating a low pressure area. Since that shield plug was actually right below the center, it means that after the explosion the plug had atmospheric pressure below and partial vacuum above. The maximal lifting force would be ~ 1000 ton (I hope I did the math correctly).
Of course it was just partial vacuum, so the actual lifting force was surely lower.
 
  • #1,055
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/roadmap/images1/images2/d161124_08-j.pdf
(in Japanese)
TEPCO / IRID report on the progress towards the planned investigation of the interior of Unit 2 PCV through the X-6 penetration

Very short summary:

The concept of the planned investigation has been presented before: send in a robot through the X-6 penetration, continue via the CRD rails, drive over the platform, look up towards the control rods and down towards the pedestal.

You might recall that the area of the lid of the X-6 penetration was found to be strongly radioactive, and decontamination operations didn't go very well. Therefore, they have to cut a hole in the lid to gain access into the penetration, using a complicated procedure, aided by specially constructed equipment (an "isolation mechanism" comes first and clings onto the X-l penetration lid using strong metal clamps, then a shielding structure is attached to it, followed by the hole-cutting machine. The "isolation mechanism" contains a ball valve and its role is to allow pumping in pressurized nitrogen, to keep dust and PCV air from coming out during the hole-cutting operation. The valve will then remain closed after the retraction of the hole-cutting machine.

They have already used the equipment on a model and confirmed it's capabilities.

Highest radiation reading recorded inside the PCV in March 2012: 73 Sv/h (page numbered 9)

This time the robot will be preceded by a device for clearing away sediments (sediments in the area were observed during the last investigation).

The operation is scheduled to start sometime in January next year.
 
  • #1,056
It is evident that this work is far beyond the capabilities of any utility, even as substantial a one as TEPCO once was.
It seems more akin to a major government engineering research effort.
Does TEPCO really still contribute anything useful to the work here?
 
  • #1,057
IRID (International Research Institute for Nuclear Decommissioning) is listed at the top of the report shown in my previous post...
This diagram from IRID site is suggestive for the complicated relations that have formed around the Fukushima Daiichi issue. TEPCO still plays a role, they have to carry out all the work on site (certainly together with contractors, sometimes) and provide all the data and feedback - but undoubtedly other factors are involved, especially in R&D:
role_en3.jpg

As for the relationship between TEPCO and the Government, these recent articles may be explanatory:
http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Eco...y-involved-in-Fukushima-plant-decommissioning
http://asia.nikkei.com/Japan-Update/Tepco-seen-staying-under-government-control-for-some-time
 
  • #1,058
A very informative diagram, thank you!
The structure seems very complex, so quick decisions within it would be very difficult to reach. Presumably that is by design, there is no emergency now, but rather a very complicated problem with no existing precedent. Exploring the ramifications of decisions carefully before acting seems a sensible priority.
 
  • #1,060
Very impressive work is getting accomplished here.
The focus on the SFPs of the reactors makes eminent sense, they hold a large inventory of fissile materials that needs to be put into safe storage.
It is interesting that the reactor with the most physical damage is getting the priority for the SFP cleanup, perhaps because access was easier as a result of the explosion. I
It does show that Japan has a realistic plan for removing the unmelted nuclear material from the site within the next few years.
The larger challenge of locating and removing the corium is not time critical and can be safely deferred until later in the coming decade.
 
  • #1,062
Thanks, Sotan. Tepco usually has a press release together with the new images and videos. Oddly I can't seem to find one this time.
 
  • #1,063
Toshiba is apparently facing a multi billion dollar writedown from its acquisition of the CBI nuclear business in the US.
I have to think that this is traumatic for a company already struggling with the nuclear issues in Japan.
Presumably the Japanese government will take note of the risk that these setbacks will undermine Toshiba's ability to adequately support the Fukushima cleanup.
Is there any discussion regarding this prospect in Japan by the various players involved?
If Toshiba can solve the problems currently dogging its nuclear program, it will have a near global leadership in the segment, as France and the UK have faltered.
Does Japan still support nuclear as a strategic priority or had Fukushima ended that?
 
  • #1,064
The future of nuclear industry in Japan is a very complicated issue, etudiant; lots of articles come up from a simple search, and some people might say this is not the best place to discuss it.
It depends who you ask, as there's the usual conflicting views of government and industry (who want to go forward) and activists and opposing groups (who want/hope to be able do make do with sun and wind and waves as energy sources).
I'll just put two links here, one describing the government's rather reluctant and unhappy decision to scrap Monju:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...ey-cog-japans-nuclear-energy-policy-scrapped/
and one speaking of a (secret?) government initiative to establish... Monju's successor:
http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201612010046.html
These seem to suggest the continuation of government's support for a strong nuclear component in Japan's energy policy - but also underline the difficulties that come from public distrust and opposition after the Fukushima plant accident.
As always, the tone of such articles depends very much on the newspaper's position on the matter, and I only listed these two as examples of what's being talked... even though I know it doesn't completely cover what you asked.
- A more detailed, numbers-filled and updated material on (nuclear) energy policy in Japan can be accessed here:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/inform...ofiles/countries-g-n/japan-nuclear-power.aspx
 
  • #1,065
turi said:
Thanks, Sotan. Tepco usually has a press release together with the new images and videos. Oddly I can't seem to find one this time.

No turi I couldn't find one either.
There's this document submitted to NRA on Dec 22 which detaliates the Unit 2 PCV investigation plan and the hole opening operation (in Japanese only)
http://www.nsr.go.jp/data/000173970.pdf
Looks like they will move on to the actual investigation right after the New Year.
 
  • Like
Likes LabratSR and turi
  • #1,066
Sotan said:
The future of nuclear industry in Japan is a very complicated issue, etudiant; lots of articles come up from a simple search, and some people might say this is not the best place to discuss it.
It depends who you ask, as there's the usual conflicting views of government and industry (who want to go forward) and activists and opposing groups (who want/hope to be able do make do with sun and wind and waves as energy sources).
I'll just put two links here, one describing the government's rather reluctant and unhappy decision to scrap Monju:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...ey-cog-japans-nuclear-energy-policy-scrapped/
and one speaking of a (secret?) government initiative to establish... Monju's successor:
http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201612010046.html
These seem to suggest the continuation of government's support for a strong nuclear component in Japan's energy policy - but also underline the difficulties that come from public distrust and opposition after the Fukushima plant accident.
As always, the tone of such articles depends very much on the newspaper's position on the matter, and I only listed these two as examples of what's being talked... even though I know it doesn't completely cover what you asked.
- A more detailed, numbers-filled and updated material on (nuclear) energy policy in Japan can be accessed here:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/inform...ofiles/countries-g-n/japan-nuclear-power.aspx

Thank you, Sotan-san, for your very informative response.
It does seem clear that Japan is attempting to build a new public consensus using more realistic cost estimates that recognize nuclear accidents can be hugely costly. I've not seen anything comparable from any other country or source, real efforts to include the cost of a failure into the rate calculations.
Clearly the various parties are all trying to build a solution acceptable both in terms of economic as well as social parameters. If Japan can find that balance, I'd think the future would be very bright for Toshiba as well.
 
  • #1,069
For those interested in some problem solving, Tepco has posted some challenges: https://tepco.cuusoo.com/#challenges
 
  • #1,070
New info on the planned investigation of Unit 2 PCV
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2017/images1/handouts_170123_05-j.pdf
(in Japanese)

Page 2 shows again the 7 steps of the plan. Step 3 is done already, step 4 (a preliminary check of the X-6 penetration and CRD rails) is set for Jan 24, and a similar preliminary check of the pedestal area is scheduled for Jan 26. Step 6 may or may not be needed (depending on the presence/absence/state of sediments on the route of the robot). Step 7 is the insertion of the robot for the actual investigation.

Page 3 gives details on Step 4 and 5 (the preliminary checks mentioned above). In Step 4 they will manually insert a guide pipe carrying a tilt camera at the tip, to check the state of the X-6 penetration and CRD rails. Step 5 is a similar check but aimed at the pedestal area, mainly to see what (if any) issues are posed by the sediments present in the area. The guide-pipe in Step 5 is "extendable", if that's the word.

Page 4 shows the planned device and method for cleaning sediments from the route along the CRD rails to be used later on by the investigation robot. It uses a high pressure water jet for that purpose, and there is also a "scraper" for the stuff that water can't blow away.

Pages 5-6 show the robot used in the final step of the investigation and give specifications of the various cameras it carries.
 
  • #1,071
In addition to the previous post:
At the bottom of this page there are the links to two very short but informative videos showing the X-6 penetration and the route that the robot will have to follow, as they appear in Unit 5.
http://photo.tepco.co.jp/date/2017/201701-j/170123-01j.html
Awesome view of the pedestal and bottom part of the control rods...
How will Unit 2's pedestal look?
 
  • #1,072
Unfortunately they had a bit of trouble today and stopped the operations related to Step 4 mentioned 2 posts above (the preliminary investigation of the state of the X-6 penetration and CRD rails).
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2017/images1/handouts_170125_06-j.pdf (in Japanese)

They did not succeed in inserting the guide pipe through the front seal installed at the entrance of the X-6 penetration. The presumed cause is the hardening of the O-rings of the seal due to the temperature which is lower than at the time of the training. The result is that much more force appeared to be needed in order to insert the pipe, and they preferred to stop.

The will warm up the front seal using a heater, soften the O-rings and reduce the resistance - and attempt again, tomorrow (Jan 26). Step 5 too will probably be delayed accordingly.
 
  • #1,073
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2017/images1/handouts_170126_14-j.pdf
(in Japanese)
They performed the "Step 4" mentioned above; this document gives some of the results, including some photos.
Page 7 contains the conclusions:
- They confirmed that there is room enough to insert the 110 mm diameter guide pipe for the next investigation.
- There are no obstacles on/around the CRD rails to prevent them for doing the next step (pedestal area preliminary check).
- Hazy imaging in the area of the entrance to the pedestal space, but this will probably not prevent the next step (which will be carried out as soon as preparations are ready).

P.S. Great video at the bottom of this page:
http://photo.tepco.co.jp/date/2017/201701-j/170126-01j.html
 
Last edited:
  • #1,074
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2017/images1/handouts_170130_01-j.pdf
(in Japanese)

2-page quick report with results of the second preliminary investigation - in the area of the pedestal of Unit 2 PCV.

On the left side of each page there is the photo of Unit 5, for reference. On the right side there are images taken in Unit 2.
Page 1 - right side: upper photo is of the "slot opening", not sure of the translation; lower photo shows the "flat bar" area, with a piece of grating missing (!) on the left side of the photo.
Page 2 - right side: upper photo is of the "CRD housing support"; lower photo is of the "flat bar".

-------------
I can find no interpretation or explanations... and the photos are so scarce, I wish we had more of them and maybe a video... but I will venture and say, what if that so-called "sediment" is... corium? Maybe the material was so fluid that in many places it simply flowed through the grating without melting it, and among the control bar mechanisms? Maybe a larger lump, colder and unable to go "through" the grating, took down that portion of grating with it, simply by weight. Could the "sediment" be corium remains that stuck to the grating?
Also, under such conditions, navigating a robot over that grating (with missing parts and all) will be a nightmare...
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes LabratSR and turi
  • #1,075
Wow Sotan THANKS !

Was there a mention of the radiation field in there , or robot stay time ? I'd expect Corium would be so active, hundreds of Seiverts / hr, as to wreck the robot's electronics .
 
  • #1,076
No Jim, no other info in that short report.
I got so excited - because we (well... they) are certainly getting closer, that I forgot how radioactive corium should be.
On the other hand, based on the film released in Step 4 preliminary investigation, inserting the guide pipe with camera in the tip, and talking just a few pictures around, could have been a matter of minutes. So it's hard to say.

I am sure we will get more info soon, they must be analyzing much more results than those in this quick report.
 
  • #1,077
http://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/wo...-find-could-be-a-big-breakthrough-in-cleanup/
"Tokyo — Tokyo Electric Power (Tepco), the operator of Japan’s wrecked Fukushima nuclear plant, has found possible nuclear fuel debris below the damaged No2 reactor, one of three that had meltdowns in the 2011 disaster, public broadcaster NHK reported on Monday."

Also here
http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Possible-nuclear-fuel-debris-sighted-under-damaged-Fukushima-reactor

NHK short video - I cannot see it, maybe you can see the "black mass" they are talking about in these images:
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20170130/k10010857621000.html

By now it's all over the internet but no new photos released.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #1,078
Sotan said:
http://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/wo...-find-could-be-a-big-breakthrough-in-cleanup/
"Tokyo — Tokyo Electric Power (Tepco), the operator of Japan’s wrecked Fukushima nuclear plant, has found possible nuclear fuel debris below the damaged No2 reactor, one of three that had meltdowns in the 2011 disaster, public broadcaster NHK reported on Monday."

Also here
http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Possible-nuclear-fuel-debris-sighted-under-damaged-Fukushima-reactor

NHK short video - I cannot see it, maybe you can see the "black mass" they are talking about in these images:
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20170130/k10010857621000.html

By now it's all over the internet but no new photos released.

From the nhk link, at 26 seconds you see the wrecked crd support housing. You see a normal one at 1:26.

It's hard to tell exactly because without seeing the robot go in, I don't have a lot of context for where we are looking. But that support housing is directly below the vessel and core. It's designed so if the control rod drives eject from the core due to a weld failure that the rod cannot move more than a few inches because the housing will absorb the impact. And the support housing looks pretty messed up.The first 10 seconds the camera is looking sideways and down at the grating below where workers would be walking. There is grating and a rotating platform used for servicing control rods during an outage. You can see debris wrapped around the grating.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Likes Sotan and LabratSR
  • #1,079
Thank you Hiddencamper, I will take a look when I get home.
I saw a short material on NHK news television.
The reason there is no info about radiation is simply because the (guide) pipe used in this preliminary search only carried a camera and no radiation meter. The robot to be inserted later will carry such a device.
Also, from the text reports I expected a large black mass, but actually it seems they refer to smaller fragments scattered on the grating which can be seen in the released photos. They mentioned that molten fuel was probably 2000 or even 3000 degrees Celsius and yet in many parts the steel grating is not molten - yet part of the grating is missing, was it molten? carried away? which speaks about the complicated dynamics of the flow that took place in those moments.
One new aspect I learned/saw was that lots of water drops are coming down through the control rod installations and falling down onto the pedestal, obviously from the cooling water seeping through the holes left in the bottom of the RPV by the molten fuel.
 
  • #1,081
  • #1,083
turi said:
Regarding radioactivity: Those two photos seem to have quite a bit of radiation artifacts:
http://photo.tepco.co.jp/library/170130_01/170130_09.bmp
http://photo.tepco.co.jp/library/170130_01/170130_03.bmp

Those artifacts are hard to determine actual dose rate though. I see similar artifacts on cameras that sit in our heater bay all cycle (1-2 R/hr). The difference is this camera has only been in for a short time.

For those trying to see what we are talking about, open the first picture and you'll see almost Christmas light colors spotting the top dark portion of the picture. It's strongest on the top left and right corners.
 
  • #1,084
Hiddencamper said:
Those artifacts are hard to determine actual dose rate though. I see similar artifacts on cameras that sit in our heater bay all cycle (1-2 R/hr). The difference is this camera has only been in for a short time.[...]
Are "your" artifacts always at the same pixels or do they constantly change position? As a lay man I would expect temporary artifacts from high radiation and long time failures of single pixels due to accumulated dosage.
 
  • #1,085
turi said:
Are "your" artifacts always at the same pixels or do they constantly change position? As a lay man I would expect temporary artifacts from high radiation and long time failures of single pixels due to accumulated dosage.

You get fuzzy spots that move around, but you also get dead pixels basically.

When we shut the plant down dose rates in the steam tunnel and heater bay are in the <10mr/hr range and you are just left with the dead pixels.
 
  • Like
Likes LabratSR and turi
  • #1,086
Hiddencamper said:
Those artifacts are hard to determine actual dose rate though. I see similar artifacts on cameras that sit in our heater bay all cycle (1-2 R/hr). The difference is this camera has only been in for a short time.
That's interesting. What kind of life do you get from them ? Are they shielded ?

Radiation tolerance of electronics is not much studied in ciivilian circles. I once spoke with a TI old timer named Frank whose expertise was with weapons. He thought at first i was inquiring about inside the reactor because he's accustomed to working with what comes through a bomb case before it melts... The ten R/hour dose rate i was inquiring about is miniscule in comparison and he could only give estimates.

So i tested two consumer devices.
My own TI-99A computer handled several hours of 200 rad/hour just fine, 1000 R total.. Its CMOS memory Frank said might start degrading at 2000 R total so i went only halfway there.
A Fisher electronic pressure controller full of DMOS showed at 10,000 R only a slight calibration shift but at 20,000 R it was no longer responsive. So we decided to not install them in a 10R/hour area for fear they'd not last through a fuel cycle.

So my observation is electronics is tougher than humans but only by a couple orders of magnitude .
Your cameras would be one more data point.old jim
 
Last edited:
  • #1,087
Tepco has published a more detailed report:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2017/images1/handouts_170130_07-j.pdf
(in Japanese)

Page numbered 1 shows the general area targeted by this preliminary inspection - lower part of the CRD rails and part of the grating in the pedestal, jjst below the control rods.
Page 2 shows the place of this so-called "Step 5" in the general investigation carried out these days in the PCV of Unit 2.
Page 3: location of the 3 photos shown at the bottom of the page, ending with the wall of the pedestal.
Page 4: 6 photos and their location. Clockwise from top left: 1) place where grating is missing 2) guiding pipe(s) for "TIP" 3) lower part of the CRDs 4) sediment 5) opening of (between?) CRD rails and platform 6) flat bar and missing platform.
Page 5: Conclusions
- they were able to perform the inspection as planned;
- in the area that could be seen, the CRD housings, the PIP cables and the CRD changing machine were still in place;
- part of the grating on the platform was found deformed / in a different shape than when installed;
- a sediment (deposit) was found on the CRD rails and on the grating;
- water drops are falling at least over an area of the pedestal;
- they will evaluate the need/possibility of removing the sediment and driving the inspection robot in the area;
- all plant parameters indicate that adequate cooling is being achieved;
- there is no leak of gases from inside the reactor, as the sealing O-rings at the entrance of the X-l penetration performed as expected;
- there was no outside effect of the radiation from inside the reactor, which was properly contained by walls and shielding.
Page 6: aspects from the work area.
Page 7: explanations regarding the photos - camera pan, tilt.
Page 8: explanations about the video: which are is being filmed at which minute/second interval.

The video is here: http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/library/archive-j.html?video_uuid=bo88kf1n&catid=61699
 
  • Like
Likes turi and LabratSR
  • #1,090
Thank you for that link turi.
I managed to watch the first half, it is really difficult to summarize, here's a long post about it.

- They played the video from inside the PCV first. Then explained the document listed above, the one with the Conclusions on page 5 (up to 28:54). Then took questions.
- Q: What could that "sediment" be? A: We can't say for sure yet. There's still the possibility that it's made of various materials such as melted insulation (lots of aluminum in insulation) or melted cable cover... We're still analyzind thes eimages and hope to get more information.
- Q: Could it be a mixture of melted fuel and components too? A: We just can't say yet. Not enough information.
- Q: Is there any information that it is NOT corium debris? A: We can't say yet, we're going to insert the "scorpion" robot it and get more information. We'll get temperature, radiation values and we'll be able to say more.
- Q: Watching those images there was a lot of noise, can you say from that that there was an extremely high radiation in there? A: We can't give a figure from that, we'll keep analyzing the results. Q: How is the noise in these images, compared to others in the past? A: We'll make such an analysis too, look at those images and noise using video software, but there are large margins of error in such an analysis. Q: In some parts it's ot clear whether that is water falling down like rain or static/artifacts/noise cause by radiation. A: There is certainly some of that noise too. But at first glance it looks relatively low. But how many Sv is that - we'll be able to say that maybe later after serious evaluation. Those things that move in groups from up down, or sometimes at an angle i the image - those are water drops.
- (33:24) Q: If the sediment seen in the images is corium debris - would that cause a much more intense radiation? A: We can't say yet, need more analysis, there are many things inside the reactor that could have melted. Q: So you can't say definitely, "the radiation is low, therefore it's not melted fuel", either? A: Indeed.
- (34:00) There was that "flat bar" with a height of 9 cm. Looking at this photo, there's this portion where the grating is gone - is there a place where a lump of sediment is visible? A: Yes it appears so. Q: A pile of sediment, a few centimeters thick? A: Yes that's what we see too. Q: About the reason why that grating portion is gone..? A: We're still analyzing that and hope to get more info by further investigation.
- (34:56) Q: In that photo with the "slot opening", the left side of the photo means down, right? A: Yes. Consider that the grating is always "down". You might have to rotate that page 90 degrees to get the right position. Q: What is seen beyond the "slot opening"? A: The black space underneath the grating, where light does not reach. Q: Beyond that it gets whiter... A: Difficult to say, maybe some reflection of light. Q: As for the next robot investigation, do you estimate that there will not be significant obstacles/difficulties? A: We'll have to analyze a lot more. Of course we must avoid that area with no grating. Q: So apart from such re-consideration, the robot investigation itself should be doable, you'll get there and see more? A: Toshiba has a mock-up of the area and we'll investigate more the sediment situation and the route that must be taken.
- (37:36) Q: This time you got these images that you've explained to us, what is your evaluation of this result? A: We're happy about being able to carry out the investigation as planned, we didn't have before any such images of the lower part of the PCV, so it's very precious data... We saw that many/most hardware components are still in place, but cooling water falling through shows there is certainly damage to the bottom of the RPV, even though this time we can't say more, haven't seen the degree of damage.

Shorter notes from the continuation of the press conference recording:
- This time's investigation is just a peek inside the pedestal, about 2m from the entrance. Can' say in % how much of the pedestal room we covered.
- The inspection robot cannot climb up the 9 cm flatbar.
- The "cleaning robot" we can't yet say if we will use it or not. This week we probably won't send in any robot, we need some time to analyze. The cleaning robot would go in only on the CRD rails, not further.
- About the yellowish/green color in the images - we probably shouldn't think too much about colors, light is not enough, image processing also affects colors, we can't get too much info from the color, not yet...
- Water drops coming down: are there fissures, cracks in the RPV or is there a big hole that let's 3 tons of water get out of the RPV each hour - or is water also going some other direction? We can't say yet, there are rainy places and not so rainy places it seems, we're still analyzing.
- About the size/amount of "debris", "sediment"... We've seen the same images as you, we cannot yet say how big, how many tons of sediment etc... or what exactly it is.

(55:00) Sotan's note: ...lack of time prevents me from continuing in this manner, but I think you get an idea about the mood/atmosphere in the press conference room. If I get more time tomorrow I will watch the second half and post more, although I think I should make it shorter and only note the important points.
 
  • Like
Likes turi and LabratSR
  • #1,091
Part 2 of the press conference (excuse the formatting...)

(56:30) The speaker is correcting a previous statement, the one when he said that perhaps next week they will send in the inspection robot. He's saying this has not yet been decided, it depends on further analysis.
- Q: You made public a few minutes of footage - how much have you taken actually? A: the whole operation, including preparations and ending... lasted from 5:45 to around 10:30. Several short films have been made during this time, probably a few hours in total. Q: No image has been shown of the grating as a whole, a "long" shot... Camera didn't take such an image or...? A: There is actually, in the sequence where the camera looks at the missing triangular piece of grating, then changes angle upward, on the way in that sequence there is probably such a shot but the lighting is limited and the images unclear. Q: What's the approximate thickness of that sediment, if the flatbar is 9 cm... A: Analysis is under way but yes if we compare it with the flatbar... its about half of the flatbar's height. Also in other images, considering the gaps in the grating are 3 cm wide, that can also be compared with sediment thickness. Q: It's been asked already but any theories about what might have caused the disappearance of that piece of grating? Was it pulled down, was it melted... A: We are not yet in position to advance a hypothesis... Grating is steel, melts at 1500-something degrees, the melted fuel might have had 2000-3000 degrees. Such material could have fallen directly on that area, or carry with it some component that hit the grating... We can't say more at this moment.
- Q: You mentioned that the actuators of the control rods looked in relatively good condition. The muon imaging indicated that some portion of the fuel is probably left in the core. Would you say these images support the results previously obtained by muon imaging? A: We cannot say yet with certainty yet, we are still analyzing and we will need more info. We were only able to see a small portion of the pedestal. Water coming through shows that a breach has been made.
- (1:05:42) Q: Is the grating frame gone too, or just the grating panel. A: The panels are made in such way that they include an exterior frame, which is gone too. Q: The sediment on the CRD rails and the one on the grating platform, are they different? A: Difficult question, we are not yet able to answer that with certainty. Previous imagery too shows that sediment on the CRD rails is rather thin, might be burned/melted paint/coating; the one in the pedestal looks different, origin may be much more diverse (thermal insulation, cables etc)... Q: You said the gratings are made of iron, melting at 1500-something degrees, but then you mentioned something about 3000 degrees, what was that about, again? A: that's the melted fuel. Q: So it is possible that the hot melted fuel might have fallen on the gratings and melted them? A: We can't say with certainty, but it is one possibility among others.
- (1:08:55) - questions from the Fukushima meeting room follow. Q: in the 4th photo on this page we see some "round-ish" artifact which looks different from other sediment, is it possible that this is a piece of hardware of some kind? A: Now that you mentioned it, yes it appears to look somehow as you say, but... we can't say yet what it is, if it is something like a piece of equipment that fell... To me it doesn't really look like equipment, so I can't really say. Q: Is it a possibility that you won;t be doing the robot inspection? And if you give that up what will happen next? A: About the inspection I said earlier and then made a correction, we will analyze its feasibility properly. Q: What is the time (minutes/seconds) when the mass of sediments was identified? A: the tape kept rolling, when all the work was done it was brought in for analysis and editing... although editing sounds funny. What time it was noticed is hard to say... Q: I see. You (Mr. Okamura), at what time did you get the report about the sediment? And what were you told? A: of course I consult my colleagues before the press conference, it was at that time. A few hours before. Q: What was your honest first impression when you received that report? A: Well I felt it was a big step forward which brought in precious information, so I was very happy and I am happy to be able to inform you about it.
- Q: When do you think the evaluation will be over and you'll be able to tell us if that sediment is remains of the melted fuel or not. A: hard to say. We haven't yet taken a sample. All evaluation is done based on imagery, and that will not change even after the inspection robot goes in. But we will also have temperature and radiation readings, and we will evaluate it all. But I think we will need additional information, such as from a direct sample. At Three Miles Island and Chernobyl there was direct contact and examination of debris at some point which allowed clear conclusions, while we are still getting only indirect proof. Q: This may be a silly question but from the information obtained today are you able to deduce by analysis data such as temperature and radiation values? or do you need to make additional inspections. A: this time there was no thermometer present (we will have one on the scorpion robot). As for the radiation, the images present that artifact phenomenon due to radiation which, in first instance, can be evaluated. But we will measure that directly with the scorpion robot, too. Q: If the sediment is found out to be highly radioactive, how will that affect the inspection robot? A: This new robot is fitted with an improved, radiation-resistant camera. The sediment could affect the route of the robot too, and we will evaluate that too. Q: On the first image of this page, there is a "slot opening" mentioned, what is that? A: During the inspection of the control rods some parts must move downwards (?), this slot provides space for that. At top left on the same image you can see the "CRD changing machine", it moves/rotates together with the platform, removes the control rod and moves it downwards. There are about 4 meters of free space under the platform.

(1:27:47, for some reason the video jumps to the end here :) I'll check again at home later.)
 
  • Like
Likes LabratSR and turi
  • #1,092
Just to give some info.

Water can be coming from a number of places. There are dozens of "dry tubes" in the core. These are small tubes that allow nuclear instruments and probes to enter the bottom of the core. It is possible (likely) that there is some failure of drytubes allowing water to leak out. These tubes are small and a trickle of water would make sense in my opinion through a dozen of these tubes or more. These tubes extend all the way up to the fuelled region so there is a lot of length for stress and failure to occur.

There is also a bottom head drain for the reactor water cleanup system. This is a couple inches in diameter so it's failure would involve a lot of water spilling out (unless core debris is partially blocking it).

Given what we've seen, obviously we don't have all the info, but it's possible we had some limited core relocation out of the vessel (possibly during the hot debris ejection when the bottom head began to fail). We don't have enough footage to know where the core slumped out or how much. But I would speculate some came out based on melted grating. We will see.
 
  • #1,093
This is the 3rd and last part of the press conference video available at tye link given by turi a few messages above. I said I will make it shorter but in the end I decided to keep the same format, this time, till the end. In the future I'll try to watch and summarize.

<<<Let me insert a short "disclaimer" here, this is just a quick on-the-spot translation which I by no means claim to be perfect - I have been known to make plenty of mistakes even on written documents, so... if you see something weird it may well be a mistake; if you feel it is important let me know and I will double check that particular place for you.>>>

(1:28:50) Q: Is the sediment getting more frequent, is the amount increasing towards the center of the pedestal? A: No at this time we cannot say anything like that. Q: Above the pedestal, there is a similar size cilindric equipment isn't it. The RPV? A: The pedestal is slightly smaller, at 5m diameter. The RPV is 5.5m in diameter.
(1:30:30) Q: Are these video images the result of some enhancing processing, to remove fog, to improve contrast etc. - or are they raw footage. A: Previous images have been enhanced, I think there is a possibility that some enhancing/processing has been done on these two. Q: In that case some of fog, as well as some of the artifact due to radiation might have been removed. A: There can be that too, to some degree... I couldn't say. Q: Those few water droplets that wee see in those images, they couldn't possibly account for 4.5 tons per hour, what do you think? A: Well... the whole pedestal area is pretty large, it's possible that in places we couldn't see this time there is more flow... again, this too is hard to call right now. Q: I couldn't help thinking, wasn't it possible to extend that pipe a little longer, to see farther? A: This was just a preliminary step in view of the inspection using the scorpion robot. The point was just to see whether we have access enough to place that robot there at the entrance into the pedestal area. If later on such a procedure could be useful for some purpose, and could be improved - we will analyze that posibility too.
(1:38) Q: I'm seeing a bit of contradiction between the possibility that the grating might have been melted by the hot fuel and the fact that much of the equipment in the pedestal seems intact... What did the simulations say, that the RPV was pierced right in the center or is it possible that it failed somewhere on a side... A: The simulations did not follow such an angle... The RPV has a drainage pipe right in the center so perhaps it is easy to consider that that's the weakest spot, but we simply don't know yet.
(1:39:51) Q: Can you tell us something about the team, the number of workers who carried out these operations, the exposures. Also what is the atmosferic radiation level in the area where these people worked. A: There were 4 teams each made of 4 men. The teams would take turns one after another, and there were about 3 full turns. Additionally there were 2 people doing decontamination. The planned maximum exposure was 3 mSv; thanks to shielding and working in shifts, the average value was 0.37 mSv per person. However the highest exposure was 1.23 mSv. The atmospheric radiation was similar to last time, about 3~6 mSv/h in front of shielding. Q: About that maximum exposure value... I'm thinking if that was a person who also worked last Thurdsay in the other preliminary inspection..? Or should we understand the people of today didn't work last Thursday. A: People who reached a certain level of exposure will help in other ways, preparations etc - but not work in the first line. Q: So some of them did work on Thursday and again this time? A: Yes some of them do, these are teams that have had a lot of training on mockup, they are trained to work efficiently in teams and in the shortest time possible. Q: The next inspection with the scorpion robot - will there be new people working on that, or the same teams that worked this time. A: The 4 teams of 4 that worked this time will perform the basic initial operations, pipe insertion etc. Q: The exposure in this case, as a total, are there some limits that are established? A: Certainly, the management of exposure is a priority theme and a lot of consideration is given during planning to such aspects. We have a plan that calls for limiting exposure to a maximum of 3 mSv per day, but have been able to limit actual exposure values to a 10th of this value. Q: So you don;t have an overall, long-term exporure limit (say 20 mSv over a certain period), instead you're watching for a 3 mSv/day limit.
(1:44) About the sediments that we saw, will the scorpion robot be able to drive over it, avoid it, in general do a good job in spite of that sediment? A: We will do a lot of work at Toshiba (mockup) to check for those things. The data we got this time wil be very useful in that sense.
Q: ABout the watter that seems to be falling down in the PCV. What can you do to find out the leaking place and what is the significance of such a discovery for the future operations aimed at removing the debris. A: We know from the muon measurements that a lot of the fuel is probably still in the RPV. Who knows, maybe the conclusion will be that it is easiest to approach the debris from the top of the RPV. But we have much more to find until then. Q: If you are to use the flooded approach you must be able to make the RPV watertight... A: That is one possibility, flooding the whole PCV is another one, we still have much to learn before we decide that. Q: The previous finding given by the muon measurement indicated that a significant part of the fuel is still in the RPV, however we see all this debris on the platform and in the pedestal area, if that turns out to be nuclear fuel, is it an unexpected result that contradicts the muon finding? A: I wouldn't say so, the muon measurement is not a very precise one, it just says that a lot or the majority of the fuel is still in the RPV, it doesn't say no fuel leaked out... Since water is now leaking it is quite likely that the melted 2000-3000 degrees hot fuel flowed here and there over the grating, and might have melted the grating here and there, depending on the place. Q: The scorpion robot will give you information about the extent, the spreading of this sediment, but will it be able to measure some of its properties too? such as the hardness, the "feel"... A: Well maybe we'll be able to get a feel of it, a limited feel, from how the tracks of the robot will go over it. But there is no arm on this robot to extend to and grasps the debris. The camera will get really close to it too, and that might help in that sense a little. If the robot track sinks into that stuff it will mean it is soft; if it climbs over it that will suggest a harder, metal-like composition... this will give us a hint. Q: COuld you tell us again what are the objectives of the next, scorpion robot inspection. And what are you going to be analyzing in the following days. A: The scorpion has two cameras, with high resistance to radiation. Also, the fact that we have two cameras, one in the front, one in the back near the light source, will allow us to get a sense of depth and will help avoid some light artifacts/problems. We're hoping to get some very good imagery. We'll have a thermometer on it too, and a (integrative) radiation meter. We'll get an idea of the radiation level in the pedestal. We will use all that information in the analysis aimed at finding the best solutions for removing the nuclear fuel debris.
 
  • Like
Likes LabratSR and turi
  • #1,094
It has been said multiple times above but I too wish to thank you, Sotan, for your dilligence in providing the wealth of updates you have managed to amass. Your efforts are truly exceptional. Many, many thanks.
 
  • #1,095
(Thank you krater!)

Tepco released a report with some results of the analysis and enhancement of the images taken the other day in the pedestal area of Unit 2 PCV:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2017/images1/handouts_170202_03-j.pdf (in Japanese)

On page numbered 4 there are 2 columns with photos stacked over. The explanatory texts, from top down, say:
(left stack)
- CRD housing support
- LPRM cable or PIP cable
- Sediment stuck to a piece of equipment that looks like a support for the guide pipe for TIP
- CRD changing machine
- support for the guide pipe for TIP (as seen in Unit 5)
(right stack)
- fallen grating
- flat bar
- end of the CRD rails

(down left explanations - I probably need to check for the correct names of these, but no time right now)
LPRM is some system used to measure the flux of neutrons in the core.
TIP is a probe that is inserted in the core in order to do those measurements.
PIP is a system that provides information regarding the position of the control rod.

Page 5: another set of enhanced photos with some measurements. Explanations at the top say "fallen gratings" and "slot opening", and "flat bar" is written at the bottom.

Page 6 shows the location of the grating panels on the platform, as well as the initial/new routes intended for the inspection robot (this is still under consideration). The expression used this tim,e is "grating panels in the process of falling" or "started falling", so I assume they are probably still clinging on in certain portions. In fact I think they are visible in the photos.
A larger version of the photos can be consulted here:
http://photo.tepco.co.jp/date/2017/201702-j/170202-01j.html
 
  • #1,096
Article in Japanese from Asahi Shinbun:
http://www.asahi.com/articles/ASK22636GK22ULBJ00V.html

A Google translation due to lack of time - but it looks pretty correct to me:

Tokyo Electric Power Company revealed that radiation dose in the reactor containment vessel of Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant No. 2 which meltdown (core melting) reached a maximum of 530 sievert per hour on an estimated basis. With a dose comparable to the inside of the pressure vessel during operation, if a person stays near, it will die in less than 1 minute. It was also found that a 1 meter square hole was opened in the working scaffold right under the pressure vessel. It is said that melted nuclear fuel (debris) dropped and the scaffold could be melted.

Since late January TEPCO is using a remote camera to investigate just under the pressure vessel. When the dose was evaluated from image disturbance due to radiation, it was estimated that it reached 530 sievert per hour at the maximum in a part of the containment vessel. TEPCO believes that nuclear fuel melting down scatters, although it is said that "there is an error rather than directly measuring the dose," it seems that there is a possibility that strong radiation is emitted in the containment vessel.

TEPCO plans to investigate the survey robot "scorpion" this month and will investigate the spread of nuclear fuel by measuring the dose of each part in the containment vessel. However, as a result of analyzing the camera image, it turns out that there are multiple holes in the working scaffolding where the scorpion is about to move around. TEPCO explained that "Melted fuel dropped from the pressure vessel and there was a possibility that holes could be made by melting the scaffold," as distortion as melted by heat is seen in the dislocated scaffold.

The hole is on the traveling route scheduled by the scorpion and it is seen as one meter square as a large one. TEPCO is planning to consider other entry routes, but the investigation can not be seen. (Sugimoto Takashi)Also NHK
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/lnews/fukushima/6053580791.html (in Japanese)
Gives some additional details:
530 Sv/h is the maximum value encountered. Even with an estimation error (due to the method) of around 30%, it is much larger than that measured a year after the accident which was 73 Sv/h.
At the entrance in the PCV there are about 50 Sv/h. At the entrance into the pedestal - about 20 Sv/h.
The 1m x 1m "barely hanging" grating is in addition to the small triangle of grating found missing in the Jan 20th preliminary inspection.
A member of the NSR said that if that value is confirmed, there is a high possibility that there is nuclear fuel debris present in that region. It is also likely to affect the functioning of the cameras on the robot. He added that even if some fragment of nuclear fuel/debris (presumably located on the bottom of the pedestal) is not submerged in water, it does not send dangerous radiation in the exterior, thanks to the thick concrete wall of the PCV.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #1,097
Thanks Sotan!

I think this further confirms most of the core is still in the bottom head with a few bottom head spots where failure occurred.

One thing I've been told is if we had a total core melt and all of it escaped the vessel, is the pit below the vessel would overflow. So this is a good sign that we probably don't have a major core ejection.
 
  • #1,098
(Hi Hiddencamper and thank you for your precious insight every time.)

- I watched the latest press conference - the one in which the enhanced photos and radiation levels were released. (http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/library/archive-j.html?video_uuid=s75v7m91&catid=69619) (2h23min in Japanese)

A few impressions:

- Many reporters were troubled by the numbers reported for radiation level. So (if you look in the figures for Step 4 and Step 5 in this investigaton), we insert a guide pipe through the X-6 penetration, horizontally; as soon as we get inside the PCV, there's about 50 Sv/h. We keep inserting the pipe inside, horizontally, until we reach roughly around the middle of the space between PCV wall and pedestal wall. Here, in the air, image analysis suggests 530 Sv/h (!). Then the guiding pipe bends down and goes all the way to that hole in the pedestal wall; just as we enter the pedestal space, image analysis shows 20 Sv/h. Doesn't make much sense and they can't say how that's possible - and in my view I cannot make Hiddencamper's interpretation fit these number either. If most of the fuel is still inside the RPV (which I do believe is true), why is radiation so high in the air in the middle of the space between PCV and pedestal walls. If lots of fuel melted and flowed through the pedestal and now radiates into that space - why are values near PCV wall and at the entrance of pedestal so low... Speaker (Tepco's Mr. Okamura) insisted that all these are incomplete data, obtained through a technique which is not very precise (analysis of noise/flickering in images, caused by radiation) and that more info is needed.

- Some reporters wanted to know what in the hell could emit so much radiation, considering that Mr. Okamura cited "a few Sv/h" can usually be measured on the surface of spent fuel, after it's been used for years in a reactor and sits quiet under water. One reporter then asks "okay then maybe totally new fuel, uranium pellets even, might emit that kind of radiation?" only to be told that is not the case at all (such pellets can be handled relatively safely by workers). Mr. Okamura mentioned shroud surface radiation amounting to "a few hundreds Sv/h during operation of the reactor", so maybe that's why he didn't look too bothered by figures such as 530 Sv/h, but reporters and myself too are dumbfounded about what exactly could give so much radiation. To quote a reporter's words, "when melted, nuclear fuel can turn into something that gives away such amounts of radiation?", also, if that's in the air at a few meters away of any surface, perhaps in some places it's even higher? Somebody also mentioned the possibility that this result is grossly out of order (like with that other robot that, while crawling on grating in another inspection, would show 7...8...7.. and suddenly 40 or 50 Sv/h for a split second, only to revert to lower values immediately).

- Reporters always want more definitve answers and gave a hard time to the speaker in certain places, as in, why don't you already admit that that is corium and keep saying that you don't know yet (somebody even said "that's what you said after the accident too, that you don't know if the fuel melted or not, now it looks like you do the same". But he remained strong and kept explaining that they prefer to analyze and be sure of something before making a statement.

- Some reporters pointed out that the robot route is in peril, there is no much room for sending in the robot, with so much grating fallen (and we haven't seen all the grating yet). Speaker said that it is early to say, they will do their best to send in the robot. One reporter seemed to have a hard time to believe that the robot can look down. This made me curious, I looked for some video with the robot and found this one (was glad to see that the robot can cross certain gaps with no problem and can recover from a rollover - but the size and aspect of that sediment looked to me like it could mean trouble for those tiny tracks).
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/v...apans-fukushima-nuclear-reactor-31346978.html
 
  • #1,099
The dose rate makes sense for unshielded irradiated fuel.

The story I've always been told, is if a spent fuel storage casks had the bottom welds fail and all the fuel bundles fell from the top floor of the reactor building at terminal velocity, everyone in the reactor building would have a fatal or near fatal dose by the time the fuel bundles hit the ground level.

Yes it's only a few sv in water. But unshielded it can be a lot more.

We really do need some radiation measurement devices though. Stuff outside of the pedestal is odd and would be interesting to discover and understand.
 
  • Like
Likes turi and Sotan
  • #1,100
http://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXLASDG03H23_T00C17A2CR0000/  (in Japanese)
Very short article regarding the next inspection robot, shown to the press today by IRID. This one is to be used for investigating the lower region of Unit 1 PCV. The inspection is scheduled to be done sometime before the end of March.
It is similar to the other robots, with one difference: while moving on the grating it will stop here and there and lower a small camera+radiation meter, through the small grid "cells" of the grating, into the space below, even under water (which is supposed to be 2-3 m deep at the bottom of Unit 1 PCV) to peek at the possible debris in there.
(I saw a few images regarding this new robot on NHK TV too and, if my eyes didn't deceive me, this one will be called "the rabbit robot". I don't know exactly why it resembles a rabbit, but it sure will be easy to differentiate it from the "scorpion robot" that will crawl on Unit 2 PCV grating hopefully in a few days.)
 

Similar threads

Replies
5
Views
4K
Replies
12
Views
49K
Replies
5
Views
6K
Replies
16
Views
4K
Replies
763
Views
272K
Back
Top