Measuring The Relative Velocity Of Light

[grounded]

No it is not because accelartion is npot relative in the same way asvelcotiy is relative you can't transform an accelarated frame into an inertail frame in special relatvity.

Is not the change in distance between the observer and the source (at any point) the same to the observer as is it is to the source?

 

[grounded]

According yo you: true wavelength is 1 km, but true frequency is still 600,000 Hz

True frequency is measured while at rest relative to the source.

While in motion, the frequency is relative. Traveling towards the train will increase the number of boxcars that are passed and it will increase the relative speed between the observer and the train, but it will not change the length of the boxcars.

Frequency is relative
Speed is relative
Wavelength is NOT relative

 

[jcsd]

Is not the change in distance between the observer and the source (at any point) the same to the observer as is it is to the source?

The instanateous relativce velcoities are the same, but the accelartions are different.

 

[grounded]

The instanateous relativce velcoities are the same, but the accelartions are different.

I see what you mean, and I agree, if you mean that one will feel the change in velocity and the other will not.

 

[ram1024]

to say that a wavelength <of light> is not relative must mean that everything you can measure it with is not realative as well. ie> length contraction does not exist.

i don't think it exists either, but maybe you have a different explanation?

 

[wespe]

I say I am extremely interested in learning about a real world experiment such as you described, minus the spaceship. Remember, it must be done while in motion relative to the source. A link describing the details of the experiment would be appreciated.

Grounded...

I am simply saying that by "correcting" the measured wavelength, you are creating a paradox.

Please do consider:

Assume, once again, according to the light source: the frequency is 300,000 Hz and wavelength is 1 km.

Assume, the approaching observer measures: frequency as 600,000 Hz and wavelength as 0,5 km

You say: "Current measurments of frequency already include the distance the observer has traveled relative to the source"
So, we will NOT correct the measured frequency, right? So we have this number: 600,000 Hz

You say: "We do not include it when measuring wavelength"
So, we WILL correct the measured wavelength, right? So we get this corrected number: 1 km

Now, how will we calculate the relative speed of light wrt us? By multiplying the wavelength by frequency, right?
So we calculate 600,000 Hz x 1 km = 600,000 km/sec, right?

You say we think relative speed never changes, because we don't correct the wavelength, right? So, when we use the corrected wavelength, we find 600,000 km/sec. OK?

Now, I am telling you that the relative speed can be measured directly, without measuring wavelength or frequency, just by timing the passage of light over a distance. And, this directly measured relative speed is ALWAYS equal to 300,000 km/sec. This is confirmed by REAL experiments.

Therefore, the calculated relative speed with the "corrected" wavelength" is WRONG.
The calculated relative speed without any corrections to wavelength is CORRECT.
Therefore, correcting wavelength as you want is WRONG.

Now please just tell me which argument above you think is faulty.

Is it only the "This is confirmed by REAL experiments" part? Will you be convinced if there were such real experiments?

 

[wespe]

True frequency is measured while at rest relative to the source.

While in motion, the frequency is relative. Traveling towards the train will increase the number of boxcars that are passed and it will increase the relative speed between the observer and the train, but it will not change the length of the boxcars.

Frequency is relative
Speed is relative
Wavelength is NOT relative

What you are saying is approximately correct for slow trains. But if you increase the relative speed of a train close to the speed of light, it isn't correct anymore.

Because, as the speed increases, length contraction effect becomes more, and the length of the train cars are no longer measured the same; it is measured much less.

And when you reach exactly light speed (not possible for trains), the relative speed becomes constant, wavelength and frequency becomes variable [for light] *

So is it just that you don't buy length contraction? What about time dilation?

Edit:
* I'm not so sure about this part. Here's what I thought: Suppose a rocket is launched from Earth and achieves a relative speed of 299,000 km/sec wrt earth. Then, a second rocket is launched in the same direction and achieves a relative speed of 298,000 km/sec wrt earth. What is the relative speed between the rockets as measured by the rockets?

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/velocity.html
The formula at the end of the page is:
w = |ux - vx| / (1 - ux vx/c2)

I calculated it will be around 100,000 km/sec. So I thought: as the speed of the first rocket approaches 300,000 km/sec, this value will also approach 300,000 km/sec, and at the limit it will be constant just like light.

 

[David]

Because, as the speed increases, length contraction effect becomes more, and the length of the train cars are no longer measured the same; it is measured much less.

snip

So is it just that you don't buy length contraction? What about time dilation?

“Assertions about the shape of a body in nonaccelerated motion therefore have a direct meaning. The shape of a body in the sense indicated we will call its ‘geometric shape.’ The latter obviously does not depend on the state of motion of a reference frame.” A. Einstein, 1907 Vol. 2 of Collected Papers.

He backed down on length contraction. He changed his mind. Read his own papers and stop believing internet rumors posted on websites like this one.

 

[David]

By 1911-12, Einstein retracted his light speed “constancy” postulate. For example, in the 1912 paper, “The Speed of Light and the Statics of the Gravitational Field,” he said:

“But at the same time it turned out that one of the basic principles of that theory, namely, the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light, is valid only for space-time regions of constant gravitational potential. Even though this result rules out the universal applicability of the Lorentz transformation, it should not frighten us away from the further pursuit of the path we have taken...”

And in the 1912 paper, “Relativity and Gravitation”, he says:

“Abraham notes that I have delivered the coup de grace to the relativity theory by abandoning the postulate of the constancy of the velocity of light and by the therewith connected relinquishment of the invariance of the systems of equations with respect to the Lorentz transformations.”

This was in response to statements that Max Abraham published in the Annalen der Physik:

“Already before a period of one year, A. Einstein, by accepting an influence of the gravitation potential on the speed of light, gave up the postulate of the constant speed of light essential for his earlier theory 1); in a work appeared recently 2)...”

So, the famous “constancy” postulate of the 1905 SR theory did not exist after 1912, and it doesn’t exist today.

In the 1912 paper, “Theory of Relativity”, as published in “Physik”, Emil Warburg, Leipzig, 1915, he said this about the SR theory:

“Finally, one more important question: Does the theory of relativity possesses unlimited validity? Even the supporters of the theory of relativity have different views on this question. The majority are of the opinion that the propositions of the theory of relativity – especially its conception of time and space – can claim unilmited validity.

However, the writer of these lines is of the opinion that the theory of relativity is still in need of a generalization, in the sense that the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light is to be abandoned.”

Stop believing rumors and urban legends.

 

[wespe]

“Assertions about the shape of a body in nonaccelerated motion therefore have a direct meaning. The shape of a body in the sense indicated we will call its ‘geometric shape.’ The latter obviously does not depend on the state of motion of a reference frame.” A. Einstein, 1907 Vol. 2 of Collected Papers.

He backed down on length contraction. He changed his mind. Read his own papers and stop believing internet rumors posted on websites like this one.

I don't know if he changed his mind, maybe while developing the theory? I don't know. But please see:

http://www.bartleby.com/173/10.html

"Thus the length of the train as measured from the embankment may be different from that obtained by measuring in the train itself"

Isn't this book dated 1920?

 

[wespe]

“Already before a period of one year, A. Einstein, by accepting an influence of the gravitation potential on the speed of light, gave up the postulate of the constant speed of light essential for his earlier theory 1); in a work appeared recently 2)...”

So, the famous “constancy” postulate of the 1905 SR theory did not exist after 1912, and it doesn’t exist today.

Well you got me there; I don't know much about GR.

But, I thought speed of light is measured constant even under the influence of gravity.

Are you sure these aren't out-dated historical records?

What do you say about that 1920 book?

 

[ahrkron]

David,

It is a well known fact that AE tried various models before arriving to what we now know as GR, aknowledged and understood both by biographers, like Abraham Pais, and by those who study the origins of relativity, like John D. Norton. It is not new (or any kind of "big secret") that there were contradictions in his papers from that period. You are precisely choosing papers from before 1916, which is roughly when he arrived to the theory's final form.

If you are going to put so much weight on AE own words, why don't you at least use the version that he regarded as the best way to put things together? otherwise, you seem to be trying to advocate for the ideas that AE, and many others now, understood to be faulty.

 

[swansont]

While in motion, the frequency is relative. Traveling towards the train will increase the number of boxcars that are passed and it will increase the relative speed between the observer and the train, but it will not change the length of the boxcars.

Frequency is relative
Speed is relative
Wavelength is NOT relative

Argument by analogy is a dangerous thing, because if you take the analogy too far you can reach erroneous conclusions. Consider the possibility that light and trains might behave differently.

 

[grounded]

Argument by analogy is a dangerous thing, because if you take the analogy too far you can reach erroneous conclusions. Consider the possibility that light and trains might behave differently.

It’s not that they behave differently, it’s that we calculate them differently.

If you measure the train like we measure the light, then the speed of the train will never change.
If you measure the light like we measure the train, then the length of the boxcar will never change.

What are your thoughts on post #141?

 

[reilly]

Reilly, I don't know if you have read all of the posts Grounded has made in this thread, but a cursory examination will show you that he making a most robust effort to teach you something, but your instincts seem to be to throw the dust of whatever subtle discouragement you have to the man. Condescending, superior intelligence, education and wit you know the attitue, don't you?. When you understand what he is saying, meaning you have to read it of course, you can understand his tenacity he has built into the model he his presenting.

Again, Reilly. he is teaching you something. Physics isn't so difficult, but useless phyiscs is very difficult, don't you agree?.

With all due respect, there's a cottage industry, almost 100 years old, devoted to proving Einstein wrong. I've been familiar with this industry about 40 years, so, in fact, I've encountered arguments like yours and Grounded's numerous times. They don't change much from year-to-year, and they virtually all attempt to prove that the basic Einstein description of space time via the Lorentz transformation is wrong. After all, there are only so many ways to attack the Lorentz transformation in its space-time version. Physics departments around the world every week get many letters outlining ideas like your and Grounded's. Nonetheless SR is alive and well in its world of inertial frames.

One difference between the anti-Einstein folks and the standard physics community is that the history of standard physics is recorded and open to all. There appears to be little or no extant history of the anti-Einstein movement, so people keep doing the same things over and over and over, never learning from their forbearers, and seldom learning the true extent of SR in physics today. Those who neglect history are doomed to repeat it.

I've seen a few attempts to get at E=mc**2, but not many. I've never encountered an attack on, say, the successful use of SR in accelerator design, or the relativistic description of electron-proton scattering, or the Thomas precession, and on-and-on. What the anti-Einstein folks don't realize is that SR is fundamental to physics in thousands of ways, and has been 'verified' thousands of times -- if SR were wrong, physics today would be very different than it is.

Those of you who, for one reason or another, choose to attack SR would be well advised to develop a good sense of the myriad ways in which it has been tested - and SR has yet to fail. The freshman physics version of SR is fallow territory. The vulnerabilities, if there are such, are in the far more difficult, albeit subtle parts of physics, like providing a rigorous formulation of the relativistic dynamics of a gas, in either classical or quantum form. Perhaps the difficulties of quantum field theory might be another point of attack.

Relativistic kinematics is, in my judgment, the bedrock of experimental tests of SR. Pauli's successful conjecture of the neutrino depended totally on the validity of SR. Key experiments like the discovery of the Omega minus particle, which confirmed the correctness of an important SU3 multiplet, the experiments elucidating the K meson system, and all the experiments demonstrating the correctness of the quark hypothesis require the utility and correctness of SR.

If, after 40 years of perusing anti-SR arguments, I have anything to learn it is first, why do people go after Einstein? Why do they not learn from history? And why do they not attack relativistic kinematics? -- remember that there is a strong duality in both classical and quantum physics between position and momentum, time and energy. Enough.
Regards,
Reilly Atkinson

 

[russ_watters]

If, after 40 years of perusing anti-SR arguments, I have anything to learn it is first, why do people go after Einstein? Why do they not learn from history? And why do they not attack relativistic kinematics? -- remember that there is a strong duality in both classical and quantum physics between position and momentum, time and energy. Enough.

I have wondered this too (though only for about 2 years ). The best I can think of is that Einstein's Relativity is the first thing they hear about that they can't get their arms around - and they never get past it. They simply can't accept reality at face value.

 

[Nereid]

I have wondered this too (though only for about 2 years ). The best I can think of is that Einstein's Relativity is the first thing they hear about that they can't get their arms around - and they never get past it. They simply can't accept reality at face value.

But why aren't there similar or greater volumes of attacks on QFT/QM? That's surely far weirder (is that a word?). Maybe it has something to do with AE vs a big mob (Heisenberg, Dirac, Pauli, Schrödinger, Bohr, ...)?

 

[wespe]

But why aren't there similar or greater volumes of attacks on QFT/QM? That's surely far weirder (is that a word?). Maybe it has something to do with AE vs a big mob (Heisenberg, Dirac, Pauli, Schrödinger, Bohr, ...)?

Being one of them myself formerly, I guess, quantum theory talks about small intangible things and people can't think of counter examples for them. Not so when you talk about trains, lightenings, twins..

 

[swansont]

It’s not that they behave differently, it’s that we calculate them differently.

Really? Trains follow Maxwell's equations?

If you measure the train like we measure the light, then the speed of the train will never change.
If you measure the light like we measure the train, then the length of the boxcar will never change.

What are your thoughts on post #141?

I think that if you look carefully you'll see that you aren't comparing the same thing. x₂ also represents where you are, but that isn't apparent in your equation. If you are moving, x₂ will be different, and so will t₂, for the car example.

 

[russ_watters]

But why aren't there similar or greater volumes of attacks on QFT/QM? That's surely far weirder (is that a word?). Maybe it has something to do with AE vs a big mob (Heisenberg, Dirac, Pauli, Schrödinger, Bohr, ...)?

I agree that they are weirder (yes, that's a word), but most people never learn that those things are weird. The double-slit experiment doesn't become weird until you quantize light and you don't really start digging into that in high school physics. They say there is a wave-particle duality in high school and they explore the wave and particle properties, but they don't mix them - they don't address (or even make you aware of) the contradictions that arise from them.

I first read "A Brief History of Time" in high school and that was my first real exposure to non-Newtonian physics. Its mostly Relativity, but it touches on QM. I didn't dig any deeper into QM though, until much later (though I picked up bits and piece here and there).

Then again, it may just be that Einstein was a cult-of-personality like no other scientist before or since.

 

[Nereid]

Being one of them myself formerly, I guess, quantum theory talks about small intangible things and people can't think of counter examples for them. Not so when you talk about trains, lightenings, twins..

Cats? Surely people can relate to the angst of Erwin's moggie?

 

[swansont]

It was actually Mrs. Schroedinger's cat.

 

[grounded]

I think that if you look carefully you'll see that you aren't comparing the same thing. x₂ also represents where you are, but that isn't apparent in your equation.

x₂=Location of car on x-axis at time t₂

t₂=Time of detection

x₂ is where you and the car will be at t₂ (you are the detector, you detect it when you run into it)

If you are moving, x₂ will be different, and so will t₂, for the car example.

x₂ and t₂ is simply the place and time you run into (or detect) the car. If you are moving towards the car, then the distance the car has to travel before hitting you is decreased since you are closer to it, and since the distance is decreased so is the amount of time it takes the car to travel that distance. 60 MPH is the same thing as 30 Miles Per 1/2 Hour.

If you are traveling away from the car, the car will have to travel a further distance from x₁ to run into you (x₂ - x₁). Since it travels a further distance, it will take more time to run into you (t₂ - t₁). The relative speed never changes.

Is that how you see it?

Post #141

 

[David]

I don't know if he changed his mind, maybe while developing the theory? I don't know. But please see:

http://www.bartleby.com/173/10.html

"Thus the length of the train as measured from the embankment may be different from that obtained by measuring in the train itself"

Isn't this book dated 1920?

Yes, you’re right. The problem is, he lied in some of his books and papers. He flip-flopped many times on many issues, saying one thing in one paper and the opposite in a different paper. The book you are talking about was published in Germany in 1916, and many German physicists were mad at him because of his lying and deceptions.

I’ve been investigating this for years, and I’ve got a lot of his early papers that not too many people know about.

He got many of the ideas for his SR theory from the 1895 Lorentz electrodynamics theory. It was Lorentz who invented time dilation, length contraction, the speed limit of c, mass increase with motion, the relativistic Doppler effect, and the Lorentz transformation equations.

Here is a list of a few things he said in different books and papers:

Einstein first said in 1905 that “light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity c”.

Then in 1911 and his 1916 paper he said that light speed was not constant because it slowed down in a gravity field.

In his 1916 book he said it was constant (in the first few chapters), then in a later chapter he said it wasn’t constant.

In 1916 he said all galaxies and stars were “fixed”, then in a 1932 paper he said the galaxies were moving radially at high speeds.

He said in 1916 the universe was not expanding, then in 1932 he said it was.

In 1916 he said large-scale universal space was “curved”, but in 1932 he said it wasn’t.

In 1916 he said that a “cosmological constant” kept all the stars from collapsing in on themselves, then in 1932 he said there was no such thing as a cosmological constant.

In 1905 he said that only one of two relatively moving clocks could slow down due to the relative motion, but in 1918 he said that both of two relatively moving clocks would slow down due to the relative motion.

In 1905 he said there was “no ether”, but in 1918 and 1920 he said there was an “ether.”

In 1905 he said that relative motion caused geometric “length contraction”, then in 1907 he said that relative motion could NOT cause geometric length contraction. Then in 1916 he again said that it could cause length contraction.

For several years he told newspaper reporters that he invented the special relativity theory, but in 1920 he told a New York Times reporter that he and Lorentz invented it.

In 1905 he had “balance-wheel” clocks slowing down due only to “relative motion”, but in 1918 he had to use atomic clocks, acceleration effects, and gravity fields to try to “resolve” his 1905 clock paradox.

In 1905 he said that both the K and K’ systems in his SR theory were non-accelerating Galilean inertial systems, but in 1918 he said that the K’ system in the SR theory was NOT a Galilean inertial system and was accelerated.

In 1916 he said that the SR theory did NOT consider gravitational fields, but in 1918 he said that the SR theory DID consider gravitational fields.

Newton, not Einstein was the first to propose that light would bend when it passed the sun and other bodies. He said this in the 1704 edition of his “Optics”.

Newton, not Einstein or Hubble was the first to propose the fundamental “big bang” hypothesis. He called it a “projectile force” or “projectile impulse” that set all the astronomical bodies flying apart. He said this in some of his letters to Bentley.

Einstein's cult of followers are trying to cover up his errors and lies. That’s why I am banned from posting anything on the relativity sections on this board.

 

[David]

David,

It is a well known fact that AE tried various models before arriving to what we now know as GR, aknowledged and understood both by biographers, like Abraham Pais, and by those who study the origins of relativity, like John D. Norton. It is not new (or any kind of "big secret") that there were contradictions in his papers from that period. You are precisely choosing papers from before 1916, which is roughly when he arrived to the theory's final form.

Your moderator Russ claims the "constancy" postulate is still in effect.

 

[David]

David,

If you are going to put so much weight on AE own words, why don't you at least use the version that he regarded as the best way to put things together? otherwise, you seem to be trying to advocate for the ideas that AE, and many others now, understood to be faulty.

Then why can’t this be discussed on this board’s SR pages? The management says we can’t post anything that challenges the validity of the 1905 paper. I got banned from those pages because I proved that Einstein changed his mind and corrected some of the errors of the SR theory, but management here is pretending there are no errors in SR and that Einstein never made any changes in it.

The Einstein cult that runs the board doesn’t want anyone to quote any later papers in which Einstein changed his mind about things he said in the SR theory. These guys are essentially carrying out a hoax, pretending that there are no flaws in SR theory and that Einstein never made any changes in it.

This is part of the political promotion of Einstein as the “world’s smartest man”. It’s a hero-worship cult. I run into this on other message boards too.

 

[wespe]

Yes, you’re right. The problem is, he lied in some of his books and papers. He flip-flopped many times on many issues, saying one thing in one paper and the opposite in a different paper. The book you are talking about was published in Germany in 1916, and many German physicists were mad at him because of his lying and deceptions.

I’ve been investigating this for years, and I’ve got a lot of his early papers that not too many people know about.

Well, okay, let's say he took ideas from other people and he changed his mind a few times, etc. But it would be wrong to say his contribution was null. I think he was the only one to combine all the ideas and dismiss aeather. Also he got nobel prize for explaining photoelectriic effect. I may be wrong in these. Anyway, that's history. The important thing is that there is currently a standard theory. There may be textbooks with erros, even professors may disagree with each other. It's not like a holy book you know. In the end it is the experiments that decide what is right and what is wrong. Therefore, in my opinion, your attacks on a dead man is not too beneficial.

[
sorry if I sound cocky.
regards.
]

 

[David]

Well, okay, let's say he took ideas from other people and he changed his mind a few times, etc. But it would be wrong to say his contribution was null. I think he was the only one to combine all the ideas and dismiss aeather. Also he got nobel prize for explaining photoelectriic effect. I may be wrong in these. Anyway, that's history. The important thing is that there is currently a standard theory. There may be textbooks with erros, even professors may disagree with each other. It's not like a holy book you know. In the end it is the experiments that decide what is right and what is wrong. Therefore, in my opinion, your attacks on a dead man is not too beneficial.

[
sorry if I sound cocky.
regards.
]

You don't sound cocky at all.

Of course his contributions were not “null”.

In my opinion his best work was in early atomic physics. His early atomic papers are absolutely brilliant. This is actually what he was famous for in the physics community and why he received the Nobel Prize. I don’t have any problem with that. He was quite smart about atomic physics.

What I have a problem with is all the Einstein-worship websites and books that say there are no flaws in SR theory, and so many cultists on the internet teaching teenagers the wrong physics information based on SR theory.

There is no current “standard theory” because it keeps changing. For example, just 10 years ago universities taught that the most distant galaxies were not moving at faster than the speed of light relative to the earth, but now many of the universities are teaching that they do move faster than light relative to the earth.

A type of “ether” theory has been re-introduced to astronomy with “co-moving local space” acting as a “local ether”.

It is not good in any science field when someone is banned from science forum topics because they point out that the SR theory contains errors and that Einstein himself corrected some of the errors.

This is not “science”, this is a “science cult”. The quest is not for “truth” or “knowledge”, but to promote the Holy Worshipped One. This is pseudo science masquerading as mainstream science.

My “attacks” are not on the dead man. If he were alive today he would be astounded at the amount of false information being spread on the internet in his name. He would be outraged.

He didn’t have the benefit of certain astronomical information we have today, so he had to guess about a lot of stuff a hundred years ago. He thought the universe was not “expanding” because virtually all the astronomers in the 1916 era said it wasn’t expanding. If he were alive today there would be plenty of things he would clear up about his early time and motion papers, because at last he would have the necessary observational information to make some final decisions. He flip-flopped on some issues a hundred years ago, but so did other physicists. But for Einstein cultists today to claim that he was always perfect, never flip-flopped, never fibbed or fudged, then that is just gross “hero worship”, which has no place in physics or science. It’s like Elvis worship. But Elvis worship does not belong in science.

 

[Hurkyl]

Gasp, Einstein didn't come out of the womb already knowing the form of GR and SR we use today? My entire worldview has been shattered.


If I may hazard a guess, the reason you are banned from the relativity forums because your topic is Einstein, not relativity. Worse, you have this nasty habit of hijacking threads to start this discussion, instead of giving it its own thread.

 

[swansont]

x₂=Location of car on x-axis at time t₂

t₂=Time of detection

x₂ is where you and the car will be at t₂ (you are the detector, you detect it when you run into it)

OK, thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure you were actually measuring the car by collision - now I am.

x₂ and t₂ is simply the place and time you run into (or detect) the car. If you are moving towards the car, then the distance the car has to travel before hitting you is decreased since you are closer to it, and since the distance is decreased so is the amount of time it takes the car to travel that distance. 60 MPH is the same thing as 30 Miles Per 1/2 Hour.

If you are traveling away from the car, the car will have to travel a further distance from x₁ to run into you (x₂ - x₁). Since it travels a further distance, it will take more time to run into you (t₂ - t₁). The relative speed never changes.

Is that how you see it?

Post #141

I think I understand your point. But x₂ is where I am, so it's actually fixed in my coordinate system. If you want to look at it from another point of view, you have to properly transform everything.

 

[grounded]

But x₂ is where I am, so it's actually fixed in my coordinate system. If you want to look at it from another point of view, you have to properly transform everything.

x₂ and x₁ are specific spots on the highway.

x₁ = Location of car on the highway at time of acceleration.

x₂ = Location of car on the highway at time of detection.

I'm not sure what point of view you are talking about, since the locations on the highway are the same for everyone, we could mark them with a flag at the time of measurement.

I also don't know what transformation you're referring to, if you do change the distance then you must equally change the time, else the answer will vary. SR equations are designed to always give the same answer; they were created off from Einstein's two postulates. The idea came first, then the math, that is why the math always proves the idea.

 

[grounded]

What you are saying is approximately correct for slow trains. But if you increase the relative speed of a train close to the speed of light, it isn't correct anymore.

Because, as the speed increases, length contraction effect becomes more, and the length of the train cars are no longer measured the same; it is measured much less.

What you have not yet understood is that the amount of change in the length of the boxcar due to your "length contraction", is equal to the change in distance between the source and the observer per second (caused by the change in relative speed), divided by the number of boxcars that now pass you in one second.

It may help you to see my logic by viewing the train while it is not moving (relative to the ground).
If the observer is also not moving (relative to the ground), then the observer will measure the frequency to equal zero, since no boxcars are passing him.

If the observer travels towards the train at some constant speed, then the observer will measure the frequency to equal the number of boxcars he passes in one second. The distance he has traveled per second, causes the frequency.

Multiplying the frequency by the length of the boxcar will equal the observer’s speed towards the train.
If the observer knew his speed (relative to the ground), he could divide it by the frequency and get the length of the boxcar.
Do you see how the observer’s speed causes the frequency and speed to change but not the length?
The frequency equals the distance the observer has traveled (relative to the ground) in one second, divided by the length of the boxcar.

Now if the train starts moving at some constant speed (relative to the ground) towards the observer, the observer will measure an increase in frequency equal to the distance the train travels (relative to the ground) in one second, divided by the length of the boxcar.

The relative frequency that the observer now measures is equal to the sum of the frequency created by the distance the observer has traveled (relative to the ground) towards the train in one second, added to the frequency created by the distance the train has traveled (relative to the ground) towards the observer in one second.

In a confusing but simple statement… The relative frequency equals the number of boxcars that the observer passes in one second, added to the number of boxcars that pass the observer in one second.

When calculating the length of the boxcar using the relative frequency, it must be divided into the sum of, the distance the observer has traveled (relative to the ground) in one second, added to the distance the train has traveled (relative to the ground) in one second.

The reason we measure a change in length is because the distance the observer has traveled (relative to the ground or the source) is never included.

The methods currently used to measure or calculate the relative speed of light were created to match Einstein’s two postulates. Einstein stated his postulates then created the math to match it. That is why current measurements and SR calculations used to find the relative speed of light will always equal the speed of light. For example see post #14 and post #141.

And when you reach exactly light speed (not possible for trains), the relative speed becomes constant, wavelength and frequency becomes variable [for light] *

So is it just that you don't buy length contraction? What about time dilation?

I think you made a typo above, SR shows that the wavelength and frequency are always inversely proportionate at any speed, which is why the speed of light is constant.

I do not believe in length contraction or time dilation. Both are tools used to keep the speed the same in order to validate Einstein’s two postulates. If you have the time, all my ideas are described in my first post.

 

[swansont]

x₂ and x₁ are specific spots on the highway.

x₁ = Location of car on the highway at time of acceleration.

x₂ = Location of car on the highway at time of detection.

I'm not sure what point of view you are talking about, since the locations on the highway are the same for everyone, we could mark them with a flag at the time of measurement.

I also don't know what transformation you're referring to, if you do change the distance then you must equally change the time, else the answer will vary. SR equations are designed to always give the same answer; they were created off from Einstein's two postulates. The idea came first, then the math, that is why the math always proves the idea.

x₁ and x₂ are in a reference frame of an observer that is stationary with respect to the ground. If he wants to measure the relative speed between me and the car, he needs to know where I am at t₁ -call that x₃. Then the relevant distance is x₁-x₃. But I don't think that's the measurement you were describing.

I think that the math came first, actually, with Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz transformation.

 

[swansont]

I do not believe in length contraction or time dilation. Both are tools used to keep the speed the same in order to validate Einstein’s two postulates.

But moving clocks do indeed run according to relativity, as witness by GPS and other spaceborne clocks.

 

[wespe]

It may help you to see my logic by viewing the train while it is not moving (relative to the ground).
If the observer is also not moving (relative to the ground), then the observer will measure the frequency to equal zero, since no boxcars are passing him.

OK
relative speed=0
length of the train=100 km
measured frequency=0

Now change relative speed to 0.5c=150,000 km/sec
gamma=1.16
Due to length contraction, measured length will now be 100/gamma=86 km

Measured frequency will be = relative speed/measured length=1744 Hz

What you have not yet understood is that the amount of change in the length of the boxcar due to your "length contraction",

That is 100-86=14 km

is equal to the change in distance between the source and the observer per second (caused by the change in relative speed),

That is 150,000 km

divided by the number of boxcars that now pass you in one second.

That is 150,000 km /1744= 86 km

86 <> 14 therefore your statement was wrong.

Please clear this up before we can go further.

 

[grounded]

86 <> 14 therefore your statement was wrong.

I actually predicted a change of 50 km since my observer would measure 1500 Hz, but either way, you are right, and I am wrong.

Accounting for the distance the observer has traveled relative to the source, does not account for or equal the change in length predicted by SR.

The focus of my paper was to point out that the scale of an oscilloscope or an interferometer must account for the distance traveled by the observer in order to accurately measure the light. If the observer’s distance is not accounted for, the wavelength will change, and the speed will remain constant. This is a fact and you should agree with it.

My error was to assume that this type of error was equal to, or related to the change predicted by SR. If the observers distance is not included, than at half the speed of light, an observer would measure the length to be half what it originally was. Clearly this is not what SR predicts.

My measurements come straight from the observer approaching the train. If the observer is traveling towards the train at 150,000 km per second, then he will pass 1500 individual 100km trains per second, relative to himself, else he would know he wasn't traveling 150,000 km per second.

After working through your example I realized that your measurements come from the perspective of an observer watching another observer who is approaching the train. The train and the observer traveling towards the train are in the moving frame that is being contracted by the Lorentz Transformation relative to the observer watching them.

Is that correct?

If this is so, it would explain why it could not be measured by an oscilloscope or an interferometer. You can’t use an oscilloscope to measure the length that an object would appear to be to an observer viewing the object in a moving frame, it can only be calculated.

Right?

 

[wespe]

..Clearly this is not what SR predicts.

I'm glad we found the source of the disagreement. Honestly, I don't want to screw this up, I too get confused sometimes, but your statements below indicate there is more misunderstanding.

My measurements come straight from the observer approaching the train.

So were mine. I considered only a train and one observer. The measurements/calculations were the observer's.

If the observer is traveling towards the train at 150,000 km per second, then he will pass 1500 individual 100km trains per second, relative to himself, else he would know he wasn't traveling 150,000 km per second.

Actually, in the example, he will pass 1744 individual 86km trains per second. The length contraction is not an illusion, it is real for the observer. That is, if the observer was a sitting in a 100km train, and if compared the passing train next to his train, he would find the passing train really shorter and contracted to 86km. What's more, the contraction is mutual: the passing train would claim it was the other train that became shorter.

After working through your example I realized that your measurements come from the perspective of an observer watching another observer who is approaching the train. The train and the observer traveling towards the train are in the moving frame that is being contracted by the Lorentz Transformation relative to the observer watching them.
Is that correct?

As noted above, a second observer was not present. But if you mean a second observer stationary wrt the first observer, his perspective would be the same as the first observer, since they are in the same frame of reference.

You can’t use an oscilloscope to measure the length that an object would appear to be to an observer viewing the object in a moving frame, it can only be calculated.
Right?

If you mean: the observer can't directly measure 100km., yes. He measures 86km, it's real. But also knowing the relative speed, he can calculate 100km by multiplying the measured 86km by gamma.

 

[geistkiesel]

But moving clocks do indeed run according to relativity, as witness by GPS and other spaceborne clocks.

Swansont, you are wrong. Of course the measurements will run slower as the observer has not used her own velocity wrt to the velocity of the source of the photons. The error "the speed of light is always measured as c in all inertial frames" and will always be reflected by the error in failure to include the observer's velocity.

Read grounded's posts again, until you understand them and then attack those posts on their own merits. Very diffilcult isn't it, to not have to fall back on SR dogma?

 

[David]

If I may hazard a guess, the reason you are banned from the relativity forums because your topic is Einstein, not relativity. Worse, you have this nasty habit of hijacking threads to start this discussion, instead of giving it its own thread.

Not so.

The “relativity” threads are Einstein-worship threads, for GR and SR. The moderators don’t allow anyone to point out that SR is wrong and contains major errors, some of which Einstein corrected later.

If they want to talk about modern real relativity theories that actually work, then I’ve got no gripe or complaint.

But guys like Russ are SR believers and he refuses to recognize any errors in that 1905 paper, even though Einstein wrote other papers later correcting SR theory. Those are papers that Russ has not read. I can't even quote from Einstein's later correction papers, even if Einstein himself made changes in SR theory later, because guys like Russ believe completely in the original 1905 SR theory.

That’s why I was banned from the “relativity” threads, because they are SR and GR Einstein relativity threads designed to promote only Einstein’s old, obsolete, and out of date SR and GR versions of relativity.

 

[grounded]

If you mean: the observer can't directly measure 100km., yes. He measures 86km, it's real. But also knowing the relative speed, he can calculate 100km by multiplying the measured 86km by gamma.

I thought the observer couldn’t measure a change since his measuring stick has also contracted?

Quoted from the Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia, (I hope this isn’t illegal):
In the 1890s FitzGerald and Lorentz advanced the hypothesis that when any object moves through space, its length in the direction of its motion is altered by the factor beta. The negative result of the Michelson-Morley experiment was explained by the assumption that the light actually traversed a shorter distance in the same time (that is, moved more slowly), but that this effect was masked because the distance was measured of necessity by some mechanical device which also underwent the same shortening, just as when an object 2 m long is measured with a 3-m tape measure which has shrunk to 2 m, the object will appear to be 3 m in length. Thus, in the Michelson-Morley experiment, the distance which light traveled in 1 sec appeared to be 300,000 km (186,000 mi) regardless of how fast the light actually traveled.
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2002. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

This is how I see it, what is your opinion?

The Michelson-Morley experiment was conducted to measure the resistance light encountered when traveling against the hypothesized ether.

No matter how or when they did the test, they couldn’t measure any resistance (ether).

Not wanting to let go of the ether, Lorentz hypothesized that the ether does exist, you just can’t see, feel, or measure it.

The Lorentz contraction explains why Michelson-Morley could not measure the resistance. The effect was masked because the distance was measured of necessity by some mechanical device that also underwent the same shortening.

Einstein took it another step and said the speed of light is the same for all observers. If the speed of light is constant, then so is Maxwell's equations. Michelson-Morley couldn’t measure a change in speed because the speed of light was constant and it was lengths and time that must be changing, which is why we couldn't measure it.

To me, it seems like the Michelson-Morley experiment proves that relative to the source, a ray of light will travel in any direction, away from the source, at the same speed. They were expecting it to be slower in the direction that was against the flow of the ether, which was the reason for the experiment. When they couldn't measure it, they had to explain why.

When they could not measure the effects of the ether, they said, the ether does exist, you just can’t measure it.

According to classical physics, one of the two observers was at rest, and the other made an error in measurement because of the Lorentz-FitzGerald contraction of his apparatus
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2002. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

I have to assume by the above, that they still believed there is a resistance to light, it just can’t be measured. Another words, they still refuse to believe the results of the Michelson-Morley experiment.

According to Einstein, both observers had an equal right to consider themselves at rest, and neither had made any error in measurement. The equations for this transformation, known as the Lorentz transformation equations, were adopted by Einstein, but he gave them an entirely new interpretation. The speed of light is invariant in any such transformation.
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2002. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

I believe Einstein meant the "both observers" to be, one traveling with the ether, and one traveling against the ether. Another words, one of the observers was measuring the light that was reflected and sent against the ether flow in the Michelson-Morley experiment, and the other observer was measuring the light that went with the ether flow.

In the above quote, it seems like Einstein too refuses to believe the results of the Michelson-Morley experiment. I am not sure if Einstein believes that the constant speed of light causes the Lorentz contraction, or if the Lorentz contraction causes the speed of light to remain constant. In either case, to prove that what Michelson-Morley measured was wrong, a contraction had to be applied that could not be measured by the observer. Both Einstein and Lorentz seem to be giving us a theory for why what we measured in the Michelson-Morley experiment is wrong.

To me it seems like Einstein is stating that SR applies to the ether and the source. No matter how fast or what direction the source moves through the ether, the speed at which light travels away from the source will remain constant whether moving with or against the ether flow. SR predicts the change we couldn't measure with the Michelson-Morley experiment. Is that right? SR says that when the light reflects off the mirror in the interferometer, and starts traveling against the ether flow, the reason we can't measure it is because the lengths and time have changed. Is that right?

The Michelson-Morley experiment did not have two observers moving relative to each other. The source of light was at rest with the interferometer, the light traveled from the source, then reflected off a mirror as to travel against the ether flow. The motion of that ray of light is what was assumed to be moving relative to the ether. The relative motion is between the source and the ether, what other relative motion is there?

If a ray of light is moving through space at 300,000 km/sec (186,000 mi/sec), and an observer is moving in the same direction at 29 km/sec (18 mi/sec), then the light should move past the observer at the rate of 299,971 km/sec (185,982 mi/sec); if the observer is moving in the opposite direction, the light should move past the observer at 300,029 km/sec (186,018 mi/sec). It was this difference that the Michelson-Morley experiment failed to detect.
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2002. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

The Michelson-Morley experiment failed to detect the added velocity of the observer (as worded above) because the observer was not moving relative to the source of the light, the ray of light was moving relative to the ether flow. In the above quote, they are implying the observer is moving relative to the source. It should read like this:

If a ray of light is moving through space in the direction of the ether flow at 300,000 km/sec (186,000 mi/sec), and an observer is moving in the same direction as the ether flow at 29 km/sec (18 mi/sec), then the light should move past the observer at the rate of 299,971 km/sec (185,982 mi/sec); if the observer is moving in the opposite direction of the ether flow, the light should move past the observer at 300,029 km/sec (186,018 mi/sec). It was this difference that the Michelson-Morley experiment failed to detect.

How does the Michelson-Morley experiment prove what an observer (the observer) will measure while traveling towards the source?
Is SR just another theory used to explain the null results of the Michelson-Morley experiment?

The questions are in blue, thanks for helping!

 

[wespe]

I thought the observer couldn’t measure a change since his measuring stick has also contracted?

True, the observer can't measure any change in his own mesauring stick (or better, there isn't any change according to him). But he does measure the measuring sticks in other frames shorter than his measuring stick. "his measuring stick has also contracted" is from the perspective of other frames.

Imagine you and I are holding 1 meter measuring sticks in the direction of each other. We both agree when we are at rest wrt each other. Then let us approach at a speed. I would see your meter contracted, and you would see my meter contracted. We would both think our [own] meters didn't change [it's always the other's meter that changed] and we would not agree on whose meter is shorter. But from a third person's perspective, both of our sticks might have been contracted. Everyone is correct according to oneself.

"The negative result of the Michelson-Morley experiment was explained by the assumption that the light actually traversed a shorter distance in the same time".
This is how I see it, what is your opinion?

Well, this explanation is from aether's perspective. Since we don't think aether exists anymore, it doesn't look like a good explanation now.


http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Michelson-MorleyExperiment.html
At the end of the page:"Einstein's idea of space-time contraction replaced Lorentz's interpretation "

So, Lorentz thought things contracted from aether's perspective. Now we say things (excluding oneself) contract from everyone's own perspective . Note that this also includes aether, so if you want to assume aether exists, things would contract from its perspective too. It is just that such a preferred frame cannot be distinguished from any other frame, so it was dismissed.

I think I have said above all that I can. Please let me know if something seems unclear.

edit: I see you questions in blue, maybe edited for more. I'm not ignoring them. Just wanted to make sure above points are clear first.

 

[grounded]

When I said "This is how I see it, what is your opinion?", I meant the writing below, not the writing above.

 

[grounded]

So, Lorentz thought things contracted from aether's perspective. Now we say things (excluding oneself) contract from everyone's own perspective.

Before we go on, do you agree that the Lorentz contraction was created to explain why we DID NOT measure a change in the speed of light when it traveled against the aether during the Michelson-Morley experiment?

I do know that Einstein replaced the Lorentz contraction, but wasn't it still used to explain why we DID NOT measure a change in the speed of light when it traveled against the aether?

 

[ram1024]

he's saying there is no aether.

contraction was made up to satisfy condition of relative light speed. not aether

 

[quantumdude]

Originally posted by geistkeisel
Tom, excuse me if I've asked this before, but show me Grounded's math in 19th Century physics, AND that 19th century physics is passe because it is so old.

You did ask, and I did answer. Whether or not he realizes it, he is using the Galilean velocity transformation to determine the speed of the light emitted by a moving source. And it’s not “passe because it is so old”, it is passe because it is wrong.

Tom, Grounded showed by example the necessity of including the observers relative velocity less a mistake be made in the measurement of the length of the cars (wave length of light).

No, he didn’t. All he showed is that he doesn’t understand why Galilean relativity fails.

The SR system creates a mistake in measuremment and needed to create SR to explain the error.

No, it doesn’t. SR has nothing to do with how measurements are made. SR is a theory, not an experimental procedure. It just so happens that when you do make a measurement, the theory of SR gets it right, and the theory of Galilean relativity gets it wrong.

How many times can you echo "the vast amount of experimental results" describing your collective error? The experiments that prove time dilation, contraction of matter, loss of simultaneity?

How long can you keep it up before the echo wears thin?

I’ll keep it up until stubborn knuckleheads such as yourself keep polluting our site with anti-scientific nonsense.

Tom, lifting the weight of SR will be a relief, a huge relief.

How, precisely, will abandoning an accurate theory of the physical world be any relief to me as a physicist?

They're are errors Tom, great big huge errors.

And how would you even know? You've already confessed a refusal to even learn the theory.

 

[quantumdude]

Originally posted by grounded
Tom, you say it is not "built in", but consider the following;

Can you calculate the relative velocity between a moving car and yourself by measuring the following?

Event 1: Car Accelerated (Assume instantaneous acceleration to 60 Miles Per Hour)
x₁=Location of car on x-axis at time t₁.
t₁=Time of acceleration.

Event 2: Car Detected
x₂=Location of car on x-axis at time t₂.
t₂=Time of detection.

The speed of the car relative to you is then:

v=(x₂-x₁)/(t₂-t₁).

Yes, that’s exactly right.

Can you alter the relative speed of the car while using this formula?

Sure. The car can accelerate, or I can, or we both can.

It’s not that they (edit: trains and light) behave differently, it’s that we calculate them differently.

You are half right, and half wrong here. It is true that the speed of trains and the speed of light don’t “behave differently”. But you are wrong in saying that we calculate them differently. Both the speed of trains and the speed of light are calculated according to the formula I gave. Furthermore, they both are calculated from a third party perspective using the SR velocity addition law. But for low speeds, the Galilean velocity addition law gives a good enough approximation, so that we apply it to trains for simplicity’s sake. But one should not be fooled into thinking that we can use that velocity addition law for light.

If you measure the train like we measure the light, then the speed of the train will never change.

Incorrect. If either myself or the train accelerates, then the measured (and calculated) speed will change.

If you measure the light like we measure the train, then the length of the boxcar will never change.

Not so. The length of the boxcar will be contracted. I’m sorry you don’t accept it, but it is a fact.

 

[ram1024]

you guys always talk about "the data" as if it proves the theory. yet surprisingly no one brings forth the actual data.

vast amounts of data, yet not a single bit of it brought into play. are you sure there's vast amounts of it?

 

[quantumdude]

What you have not yet understood is that the amount of change in the length of the boxcar due to your "length contraction", is equal to the change in distance between the source and the observer per second (caused by the change in relative speed), divided by the number of boxcars that now pass you in one second.

No, it isn't. The length of the boxcar is contracted according to the following formula:

L=L₀/&gamma;

That is not the simple ratio of speed to boxcars-per-second.

The reason we measure a change in length is because the distance the observer has traveled (relative to the ground or the source) is never included.

You are still confusing measurements with calculations. When you measure a length contraction, a time dilation, or a relative change in wavelength, then that's what its value is. Period. If you modifiy it with a calculation, then it is just that: a calculation, not a measurement.

The methods currently used to measure or calculate the relative speed of light were created to match Einstein’s two postulates.

Einstein stated his postulates then created the math to match it. That is why current measurements and SR calculations used to find the relative speed of light will always equal the speed of light. For example see post #14 and post #141.

I can't believe you are still preaching this. All you have to do is measure the time and place of emission and the time and place of detection. That method of mearsurement does not guarantee the SR result on simple a priori grounds.

I do not believe in length contraction or time dilation. Both are tools used to keep the speed the same in order to validate Einstein’s two postulates. If you have the time, all my ideas are described in my first post.

You are also wrong about this. Length contraction and time dilation aren't "tools used to keep the speed the same" in various inertial frames. Length contraction and time dilation are the logical consequences of that postulate. In other words, they are derived from it.

 

[quantumdude]

you guys always talk about "the data" as if it proves the theory. yet surprisingly no one brings forth the actual data.

That's a good point. The reason we don't get to talk about the data is that we are so bogged down on stupid thought experiments.

vast amounts of data, yet not a single bit of it brought into play. are you sure there's vast amounts of it?

There is. I am going to dig out a bunch of papers I have packed in a box and prepare something. It's about time we get back to the real world.

 

[ram1024]

make sure you include the data about scientists getting light to travel 100 times faster than normal calculated speeds using cold caesium chamber and group resonance beams of light.

according to einstein's "time" that speed makes the pulses received out of the other end of the chamber happen BEFORE the pulses are introduced to the entrance chamber.

the result? using light to measure instant time is a bad idea. DERIVING time from light is a better idea. using synchronicity to define time is the best idea.

looking forward to what you can come up with