Modern US locomotive design and operation

[Astronuc]

Locomotives are a complex combination of mechanical and electrical systems. The video shows different parts of a locomotive and their function. A standard mainline freight locomotive develops 4400 hp (3.24 MW) with some developing up to 6000 hp (4.47 MW).

The previous standard from the late 1970s was 3000 hp (2.24 MW).

 

[anorlunda]

That's cool. I'm happy to say that I spent 10 years working in the ALCO locomotive factory building. In the video it is called "Building next to Erie Boulevard"

The consulting company I worked for bought the building and converted it to offices. When we tried to drill holes in the floor for plumbing, we found that it was nearly a meter of reinforced concrete. The floor was designed to resist damage if the crane dropped locomotives. That's a viewpoint not often heard, "Locomotives falling from the sky."

 

[Averagesupernova]

That's a viewpoint not often heard, "Locomotives falling from the sky."

This one did. Kind of...

 

[Averagesupernova]

What's interesting about the Montparnasse train wreck in the pic I posted is very minimal damage was done to the locomotive itself aside from cosmetic. It's been recreated in the movie Hugo and in the children's series Thomas the Tank. I never knew much about it until recently other than it was on the cover of Mr. Big's album Lean Into It. An interesting story to say the least. Imagine being the fireman or engineer and jumping out of that.

 

[dlgoff]

In the video ...

I wonder if the workers there lost their hearing? Looks like a very dangerous work environment.

 

[anorlunda]

View attachment 319428
This one did. Kind of...

I remember that. There was a series of wall posters from the "Oh dang. Great moments in engineering history." series. That picture was one of them.

Another from that series, and my personal favorite, showed a bunch of people looking down at a collapsed RR bridge. If I could find an image of that, I could use it for my PF avatar pic.

 

[anorlunda]

I wonder if the workers there lost their hearing? Looks like a very dangerous work environment.

Nobody cared in the days before OSHA laws. I suffered 80% hearing loss handling empty cans at a soda factory. Nobody mentioned ear protection and at age 18, I was too stupid to think about it.

 

[scottdave]

Very interesting video. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Averagesupernova]

....and at age 18, I was too stupid to think about it.

Lol. I think you can be reassured to know that at least at that age you were perfectly normal. I recall being invincible when I was 18. It's an awesome feeling. I'd sure welcome a little bit of it back.

 

[anorlunda]

The video shows different parts of a locomotive and their function.

What fun it would be to make a locomotive simulator, full size, with full motion, and simulated video scenery viewed out the windows.

 

[Astronuc]

What fun it would be to make a locomotive simulator, full size, with full motion, and simulated video scenery viewed out the windows.

I believe they do for training locomotive engineers.

An example from Canadian Pacific (CP)

GO Train


HENSOLDT offers full scale replica cab simulators for stationary or motion-based installations. I believe this is for EU markets, but in theory could be made for US and Canadian markets.
https://www.hensoldt.net/services/simulation/full-motion-train-simulator-simsphere-train/

 

[berkeman]

Imagine being the fireman or engineer and jumping out of that.

What fun it would be to make a locomotive simulator, full size, with full motion, and simulated video scenery viewed out the windows.

 

[russ_watters]

What amazes me is just how small/weak the engines are for locomotives. Even 6,000 hp is just 30 decently powered cars. Yet the locomotive itself weighs more than those 30 cars, as does each of the hundred rail cars that follows. It really drives home how efficient rail travel is, while explaining why the acceleration/deceleration is sooooo slow.

 

[Astronuc]

What amazes me is just how small/weak the engines are for locomotives. Even 6,000 hp is just 30 decently powered cars. Yet the locomotive itself weighs more than those 30 cars, as does each of the hundred rail cars that follows.

Horsepower (MW) is one factor, and tractive effort is another factor. The weight of the locomotive and wheel geometry in conjunction with the rail geometry ensures a locomotive or set of locomotives can pull a train. Usually, more than one locomotive is used depending on train tonnage and ruling grade; wheel slip is a concern, as is train-track dynamics (including stopping ability) and truck/wheel-rail forces/interactions.

It used to be cars were limited to about 263,000 lbs (131.5 T) gross weight (tare + freight load = light weight + load limit). Then the gross weight was increased to 286,000 lbs (143 T), and trains have normally been 100 cars +/- 20 (4500 - 6700 ft), but railroads have limited train length to about 180 cars (12,000 ft/3657 m) on mainline railroads in US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_trains
There are special cases or exceptions.
https://www.freightcourse.com/longest-freight-trains/

Usually, long trains will use distributed power units (DPU) mid-train and at the end for a total of 6-9 on flat/level grade and more on mountain grades.

UP's exception - https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-jan-13-la-me-monster-train13-2010jan13-story.html

I found an article on the desire for longer trains, which states, "the upper limit on North American freight trains is generally in the 170-220 car range, totally 14,000 feet or so, with average weights of around 14,000 tons or less. The record breaking trains above were found to be impractical and subsequently weren’t run at this length during normal operation. The average freight train is smaller at a little over a mile, but this average has still increased around 25% since 2008."
https://zmodal.com/2020/04/30/trains-are-longer-and-heavier-than-ever/

 

[Astronuc]

Union Pacific Testing First-of-its-Kind Hybrid Locomotive​

https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/inside_track/ztr-hybrid-locomotives-it-240429.htm

The first of six cutting-edge hybrid battery-electric locomotives designed and built by Union Pacific Railroad and its partner ZTR, a leading rail technology company, will undergo extensive testing next month in a Union Pacific facility and rail yard.

The first of its kind within North America’s freight rail industry, the prototype has the capacity to run on both diesel and batteries – much like today’s plug-in hybrid cars.

The next of the remaining five hybrid locomotives is expected to be ready for testing next year.

 

[jack action]

Union Pacific Testing First-of-its-Kind Hybrid Locomotive​

https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/inside_track/ztr-hybrid-locomotives-it-240429.htm

That is the stupidest idea I've heard in a long time. The advantage of a locomotive is that its path is already known, therefore a fully electric locomotive can be powered by a wire following the path. Oh, Wait! This idea has already been tried, tested, and developed to death, all is left to do is implement it!

A battery cannot offer any advantage over a wire in this case.

 

[scottdave]

Union Pacific Testing First-of-its-Kind Hybrid Locomotive​

https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/inside_track/ztr-hybrid-locomotives-it-240429.htm

This is interesting. The first thing that came to mind were diesel-electric submarines.

 

[Flyboy]

That is the stupidest idea I've heard in a long time. The advantage of a locomotive is that its path is already known, therefore a fully electric locomotive can be powered by a wire following the path. Oh, Wait! This idea has already been tried, tested, and developed to death, all is left to do is implement it!

A battery cannot offer any advantage over a wire in this case.

The problem I see with the idea of purely electric locomotives is not any technical issues or challenges with the locomotives themselves.

It’s the power supply lines.

I think there are definitely some areas of the US, especially out west in Basin and Range country and in the mountains, where the logistics of installing, powering, and maintaining those kinds of power lines for the trains might be cost prohibitive. But there are also areas where it would make a lot of sense, such as the Great Plains, or the Eastern Seaboard. There’s plenty of electrical generation capacity there, the terrain is flat and open, and in the case of the east coast, the emissions reductions will certainly be a positive for the neighbors.

The issues that I think are the biggest show stoppers are politics and economics. Politically, I can see it getting shut down by partisanship, for reasons I think most Americans can probably put together themselves. Not going to dig too deeply into that particular barrel of worms here for understandable reasons.
Economically, it’s the electric car paradox all over again. Do you invest in the infrastructure to power the electric locomotives first and hope there’s actually locomotives to use it, or do you build the locomotives first and hope that the infrastructure follows? Granted, the railroads are a little more self-contained, since they own the locomotives and the tracks, but they still need to figure out what to build where.

Personally, I would argue that Union Pacific has a great opportunity to test the concept in California running up and down the Central Valley… if they can find sufficient electricity to make it reliable. I’m pretty sure that the state government would jump at the chance to support it, the terrain in the Valley is quite suitable to it, and it’s a small enough territory for the rollout costs to be acceptable for proof of concept.

 

[Astronuc]

That is the stupidest idea I've heard in a long time. The advantage of a locomotive is that its path is already known, therefore a fully electric locomotive can be powered by a wire following the path. Oh, Wait! This idea has already been tried, tested, and developed to death, all is left to do is implement it!

A battery cannot offer any advantage over a wire in this case.

UP is fairly savvy, with a long history of innovation in-house, and with suppliers. It's not an all electric system, but rather a combo diesel-electric + battery. One advantage may be dynamic braking, which become regenerative breaking if using the downgrade part of the route to recharge the batteries while holding the train without using the mechanical brakes (shoe friction on the wheels of every car).

Yes, it would make sense to electrify - if one could recover the capital costs at a rate to satisfy investors.

Outside of the NE corridor - Washington, DC to NY City to Boston, the longest electrified line was the Milwaukee Road between Harlowton, MT and Avery, ID (Rocky Mountain Division), through the Belt Mountains, over Pipestone Pass in the Rockies, and over St. Paul Pass in the Bitterrott Mountains between Alberton, MT and Avery, ID, and separately, the Coast Division between Othello, WA to Tacoma, WA through the Saddleback and Cascade Mountains.

https://milwaukeeroadarchives.com/Electrification/AProudEraPasses.pdf

There was a lot that went wrong - poor management, deferred maintenance, which lead to increasing derailments and slow orders, loss of business. . . . .

The Milwaukee Road ran out of money and time, and declared bankruptcy in 1977.

UP has survived along with BNSF (merger of BN and ATSF), and both represent a duopoly west of Chicago, St. Louis and New Orleans for E and W freight traffic.

 

[Flyboy]

Also, it sounds like the battery/diesel hybrid locomotives are for use in switching yards, which actually makes a good deal more sense than for mainline use.

https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/inside_track/ztr-hybrid-locomotives-it-240429.htm

 

[jack action]

One advantage may be dynamic braking, which become regenerative breaking if using the downgrade part of the route to recharge the batteries while holding the train without using the mechanical brakes (shoe friction on the wheels of every car).

You don't need a battery to do that.

Yes, it would make sense to electrify - if one could recover the capital costs at a rate to satisfy investors.

If the financing method is the culprit, you change the financing method, not the technology. Everywhere around the world - except North America - people can make electrified railroads work:

The chief disadvantage of electrification is the high cost for infrastructure: overhead lines or third rail, substations, and control systems. Public policy in the U.S. interferes with electrification: higher property taxes are imposed on privately owned rail facilities if they are electrified.[citation needed] [...] Because railroad infrastructure is privately owned in the U.S., railroads are unwilling to make the necessary investments for electrification. In Europe and elsewhere, railway networks are considered part of the national transport infrastructure, just like roads, highways and waterways, so are often financed by the state.[citation needed] Operators of the rolling stock pay fees according to rail use. This makes possible the large investments required for the technically and, in the long-term, also economically advantageous electrification.

I agree with the following statement for battery locomotive:

[Battery] locomotives are used where a diesel or conventional electric locomotive would be unsuitable. An example is maintenance trains on electrified lines when the electricity supply is turned off. Another use for battery locomotives is in industrial facilities (e.g. explosives factories, oil, and gas refineries or chemical factories) where a combustion-powered locomotive (i.e., steam- or diesel-powered) could cause a safety issue due to the risks of fire, explosion or fumes in a confined space. Battery locomotives are preferred for mine railways where gas could be ignited by trolley-powered units arcing at the collection shoes, or where electrical resistance could develop in the supply or return circuits, especially at rail joints, and allow dangerous current leakage into the ground.

Anything else is bad design and poor use or resources.

 

[Flyboy]

If the financing method is the culprit, you change the financing method, not the technology. Everywhere around the world - except North America - people can make electrified railroads work:

Bingo. That excerpt from Wikipedia hits the nail on the head with a 8 pound sledgehammer.

Unfortunately, I don’t foresee that situation changing anytime.

 

[Averagesupernova]

If the financing method is the culprit, you change the financing method, not the technology.

The development of many things we have today was driven by the fact that what existed prior was not cost effective for the general public.
-
If Union Pacific wants to look into this I'm betting they have better qualifications to justify that move than you or I.

 

[scottdave]

I think use in the switching yard makes sense if it is also using regenerative braking. There is a lot of starting and stopping in the switch yard.

 

[Astronuc]

This is an interesting video for a number of topics. I didn't know California could set their own air quality standards that are more stringent than federal standards, while the other 49 states cannot! California has established some laws/statutes that will require zero emissions by locomotives by 2035.

There are about 37,528 locomotives in the US with an average age of about 23.8 years.

The Clean Air Act of 1963 was revised/amended in 1970 to allow California to set more stringent/strict requirements than the federal government.

It is interesting though from a technological standpoint. How to make locomotives essentially zero-emission. Aside from overhead wire (electric), two options appear hydrogen fuel and/or batteries, both of which represent technical challenges. Some challenges are the cost of metals like copper and rare earth elements, as well as Li, which is used in Li ion batteries.

 

[Astronuc]

Inside a Class 99 – The UK’s Most Powerful Locomotive​

(Hybrid Electric (8000 hp)/Diesel-Electric (2400 hp)).


An electric (from overhead catenary) + diesel makes a lot of sense, especially in urban areas and mountain terrain. Tractive effort is another consideration, as is weight on the rails, and getting power to the catenary and locomotives. I wonder if the US could develop an electric hybrid around the standard 4400 hp (3.24 MW) diesel engine.

The UK Class 99 is manufactured by Stadler (EU) in Valencia, Spain.
https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/solutions/rolling-stock/locomotive-eurodual
https://www.stadlerrail.com/en

Some impressive stats
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_Euro_Dual
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_Rail