Paint your roof white to reduce global warming

AI Thread Summary
Painting roofs, roads, and pavements white could significantly reduce global warming by reflecting more sunlight and heat, potentially yielding benefits equivalent to removing all cars from the roads for 11 years, according to Professor Chu. While some participants express skepticism about the magnitude of this impact, they acknowledge that lighter surfaces could help mitigate the urban heat island effect and reduce energy consumption for cooling. Concerns are raised regarding the CO2 emissions associated with concrete versus asphalt, as well as the practicality and maintenance of white roofs. The discussion also highlights the potential for substantial energy savings in hotter climates through the use of reflective roofing materials. Overall, the initiative is seen as a promising yet complex solution to combat climate change.
  • #51
skeff said:
I'd be really skeptical about that number, 5-10% of net CO2 emissions being caused by concrete.
10% is probably high, 5% might be reasonable. There is a LOT of concrete made, 3ton/person/year - outside the US/Europe everybody doesn't have a car but they all use concrete.
Some of the figures are skewed by confusing cement with concrete, cement (the stuff that produces CO2) is only about 10-15% of the finished concrete (depending on how much aggregate you are using).

Chemicals and energy are the main sources of CO2, and usually you are talking about energy in the production of those chemicals too, so it all boils down to how you create energy.
Cement manufacture releases about it's own weight in CO2. Half is from the chemistry and half from the fuel used. Cement kilns use a LOT of fuel, and it pretty much has to be fossil fuel - I don't know of any electrically powered kilns.

Again you have to offset this against the low cost and long life of a cement building compared to rebuilding a wooden one repeatedly.

In theory cement is carbon-neutral, eventually it will reabsorb the CO2 driven off in the kiln and return to being Calcium Carbonate. In practice it's reused as hardcore, but if you ground it up and spread it on the oceans it would be at least as green as wood.
 
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  • #52
DaveC426913 said:
The energy from those panels adds to the net energy of the Earth; it will come out somewhere as waste heat. White roofs put that energy back into space.

Yes, but the point is that the "greenhouse forcing" of fossil power is about a factor 100 over a century: 1 KW of fossil power during a century generates 100 KW of greenhouse forcing.

(roughly: I take this from the fact that the forcing for CO2 doubling results in about 1.7 PW of forcing, while humanity uses about 16 TW, essentially fossil, which is supposed to give us a doubling in about a century).

So it is 100 times more efficient to take 1 KW from a solar panel (if that replaces fossil fuel, and as such, will avoid 100 KW of forcing), than to paint that same surface white and avoid 1KW of forcing by reflecting it back.

Very roughly.

Assuming 100% efficiencies everywhere.
 
  • #53
vanesch said:
Assuming 100% efficiencies everywhere.

That is a pretty big assumption given that solar is only now becoming competitive. The true lifetime energy output and the cradle-to-grave energy costs of solar panels is critical to include [made in China with coal power?].
 
  • #54
Ivan Seeking said:
The true lifetime energy output and the cradle-to-grave energy costs of solar panels is critical to include [made in China with coal power?].

True, but to compensate a factor of 100, that would mean that the overall efficiency would be less than 1%, so I thought I was on the safe side there...

For bad-quality PV, this might be an issue, but for a solar water heater, I don't think so.

But, it is a point you raise. Didn't think of it. Works in the other way, too. It means that solar PV, with only a few percent efficiency, isn't worth it either.
 
  • #55
OK... I have checked up some figures with my sister-in-law, who is interested in such things.

First generic comment. There is no silver bullet. If anyone, for any reason, is particularly interested in reducing their impact on the planet, the most effective single thing you can do as an individual is anything that reduces your own consumption. The things we are speaking of, like painting a roof white or installing solar power, are other minor changes you can make as well.

Be that as it may, what turns me on in particular is not saving the world, but learning about it. That's just how I am wired, maybe.

So... assuming we are fascinated by the physics and the numbers, here we go.

Here in Newcastle, a domestic solar power system is commonly about a 1 kWatt system, which covers 6 square meters and actually gives you roughly 4.5 kWhours/day, averaged over all year. Continuous power there means about 190 W. That's if you've done it well.

The power you generate feeds into the grid, and what you don't use yourself at the time gets knocked off your bill. Economically, it does have a substantial impact on your power bills.

However, it's not "efficient" when measured against the sunlight hitting those panels. You get roughly 180 W/m2 at the surface, and so with your 6 panels you are squeezing the juice out of about 1080 Watts. So you are getting about 17%. I'm actually surprised it is that high; but so be it.

A kiloWattHour (3.6 MJ) of power generates order of magnitude 1 kilogram of carbon dioxide in emissions; and so running your solar system for a year generates about 365 * 4.5 or about 1640 KWhr, and so saves about that many kilograms of CO2.

From the calculations I gave in [post=2295904]msg #38[/post], one kilogram of carbon dioxide can be taken as altering the energy balance of the Earth itself, so that an extra 0.9 W is absorbed; but remember not all emissions STAY in the air, and so you should probably reduce that impact by about half. Let's say the 1600 kilograms is worth about 800W heating on the Earth's energy budget. It will vary depending on your local power generation; it varies quite a bit between different states in Australia. But 800W less greenhouse heating for your year's worth of solar panel sounds in the ball park.

As a result of running your panels for a year, you've avoiding adding another 800W to the Earth's energy balance, just from the reduced CO2 emission.

Now you could also have painted your 6 square meters white. Had you done this, and increased albedo by 0.5 or so, you could have saved reflected some 6*180*0.5 = 540 W or so.

The thing is, your panels keep working. Not forever, but you'd better hope to get several years out of them! Bottom line -- for Earth's energy balance, a solar panel is better than a white roof of the same size.

Or you can just save power. Households vary a lot, by 8000 kWhrs in a year is credible. If you cut this by 20%, you have 1600 kWhours in a year; which is your 6 square meter solar system right there.

Or you can drive less. Cars can be from about 0.1 to 0.4 kg CO2 per kilometer, and I'm figuring about 0.45 W in the energy budget per kilogram. So 10,000 km in your car is from 1000 to 4000 kilograms CO2, or 450 to 1800 Watts added to the energy balance of the Earth. Or just get the more efficient car.

Here's the summary to help it stand out. The following seem to be about the same value in terms of their impact on Earth's energy budget, of roughly 5400 Watts in the energy balance to the Earth.
  • Having 60 square meters of white roof. (But you have to KEEP it white to keep up the 5400 albedo effect.)
  • Having a 6 square meter photovoltaic system in operation, working for 6 years. Even if it breaks down after that.
  • Cut your energy bill at home. Cut an 8000 kWhr/year bill by 20%, for 6 years.
  • Drive less. 30,000 kilometers less in your gas guzzling SUV, or 100,000 kilometers less in your subcompact.
  • If you drive 10,000 kilometers a year, replace that SUV with the subcompact; and in 4 years or so you've got that impact.

Checks on my figures actively solicited.

I have not factored into this the energy consumption in actually MAKING and installing panels. Which is significant. Solar panels do help... but they are a big expensive complex system to set up, and straight impact-wise, one of your least efficient strategies. But that's okay; there's no silver bullet and you can do all kinds of things if you really want. The solar panels do help; if that's your interest.

My sister-in-law HAS installed solar panels. 9 square meters of photovoltaics, and another 6 square meters on the Granny-flat for my Mum and Dad who live on the same block. Plus she's recently built an extension (as an owner builder) and in the process managed a lot of passive heating and cooling, with the best ways to manage insulation, grey water reuse, air flow, etc, etc. And they are trying to slash energy use. They want to get to zero on their energy bill, and that seems possible. And now she's doing a course to help do formal assessments for others. She's paid by a public government supported program, and anyone can get the assessment for themselves, which is mainly about saving your own bills. In the future, a basic energy assessment will be a required part of the information when you sell a home, much like a building report. And Cathy will be able to those as well.

So there you go, folks. If you are interested, there's lots you can do. But look first at your insulation, and where you can switch off appliances (don't leave the computer or the TV on stand by; switch it off if you aren't using it and save yourself some money), and consider public transport where feasible. Look for a holiday destination in your state rather than overseas. Solar panels if you are keen; but they don't matter as much, or save you as much money, as just seeing how you can reduce your energy bill by using less of it.

Cheers -- sylas
 
  • #56
sylas said:
Be that as it may, what turns me on in particular is not saving the world, but learning about it. That's just how I am wired, maybe.

So... assuming we are fascinated by the physics and the numbers, here we go.

You're in good company :smile:

Here in Newcastle, a domestic solar power system is commonly about a 1 kWatt system, which covers 6 square meters and actually gives you roughly 4.5 kWhours/day, averaged over all year. Continuous power there means about 190 W. That's if you've done it well.

Newcastle, Scotland ?? That seems like a very good capacity factor for solar there.

However, it's not "efficient" when measured against the sunlight hitting those panels. You get roughly 180 W/m2 at the surface, and so with your 6 panels you are squeezing the juice out of about 1080 Watts. So you are getting about 17%. I'm actually surprised it is that high; but so be it.

These are rather high-quality panels. Poly-silicon, I guess. With thin-film you won't get that.

A kiloWattHour (3.6 MJ) of power generates order of magnitude 1 kilogram of carbon dioxide in emissions; and so running your solar system for a year generates about 365 * 4.5 or about 1640 KWhr, and so saves about that many kilograms of CO2.

That's for a year's consumption, but you hope for the panel to stay there for a century (even if it needs replacing 2 or 3 times).

Let's say the 1600 kilograms is worth about 800W heating on the Earth's energy budget. It will vary depending on your local power generation; it varies quite a bit between different states in Australia. But 800W less greenhouse heating for your year's worth of solar panel sounds in the ball park.

If you use it ONE YEAR. Yes. If you use it two years, that's 1600W, if you use it 10 years, that's 8 KW, if you use it for a century, that's 80 KW.

Now you could also have painted your 6 square meters white. Had you done this, and increased albedo by 0.5 or so, you could have saved reflected some 6*180*0.5 = 540 W or so.

Yup, and that would remain 540 W.

The thing is, your panels keep working. Not forever, but you'd better hope to get several years out of them! Bottom line -- for Earth's energy balance, a solar panel is better than a white roof of the same size.

That was my point.

I have not factored into this the energy consumption in actually MAKING and installing panels. Which is significant.

It used to be of the order of 10 years of energy payback time (not economical payback time), but this has apparently been reduced to a few years for polysilicon, and one or two years for thin-film...
 
  • #57
vanesch said:
Newcastle, Scotland ?? That seems like a very good capacity factor for solar there.

Australia, a bit North of Sydney; plenty of sunny days. Good for solar.

These are rather high-quality panels. Poly-silicon, I guess. With thin-film you won't get that.

The rate does seem pretty good, even given Australian sun. But Cathy seems to think they get that order of supply from her system. I don't know the details of the panels she has.

If you use it ONE YEAR. Yes. If you use it two years, that's 1600W, if you use it 10 years, that's 8 KW, if you use it for a century, that's 80 KW.

Yes. However, by the time you look at a century time scale, you might be starting to approach times where you could consider the lifetime of CO2 in the atmosphere as well. Perhaps a couple of centuries. I stuck with 6 years as it gives comparisons of the order of a white roof ten times the size.

Cheers -- sylas
 
  • #58
sylas said:
Australia, a bit North of Sydney; plenty of sunny days. Good for solar.

Ah :smile: that explains things.

I was thinking that a solar capacity factor of 10 is already not so bad in Scotland!
(also the power per square m was a bit high for scotland...)

But Cathy seems to think they get that order of supply from her system. I don't know the details of the panels she has.

No, for poly silicon it is a good, but not exceptional efficiency, 17%. And a capacity factor of 5 or 6 is also reasonable if you're in a sunny place (a good estimate of the capacity factor is the average solar power per square meter, over 1 KW).
 
  • #59
sylas said:
... If anyone, for any reason, is particularly interested in reducing their impact on the planet, the most effective single thing you can do as an individual is anything that reduces your own consumption.
I would have said that a little differently: anything that reduces wasted consumption, or raises productivity per kWh. The point being that living on average as they do in Ghana now or here in pre Columbian times is not that effective in the larger view.
 
  • #60
sylas said:
  • Having 60 square meters of white roof. (But you have to KEEP it white to keep up the 5400 albedo effect.)
  • Having a 6 square meter photovoltaic system in operation, working for 6 years. Even if it breaks down after that.
  • Cut your energy bill at home. Cut an 8000 kWhr/year bill by 20%, for 6 years.
  • Drive less. 30,000 kilometers less in your gas guzzling SUV, or 100,000 kilometers less in your subcompact.
  • If you drive 10,000 kilometers a year, replace that SUV with the subcompact; and in 4 years or so you've got that impact.
...
or
  • one less airplane trip (2 tons CO2/person) per year for five years.
 
  • #61
Interesting discussion on solar panels. I would like to know what is required to convert the energy from the panel to 230v at 50hz to enable household appliances to be operated.
Can you store the energy? How is it synchronised with the town mains when you are providing them power? I guess this is way off topic. Is there a thread on solar panels?

Regards Richard
 
  • #62
Richard111 said:
Interesting discussion on solar panels. I would like to know what is required to convert the energy from the panel to 230v at 50hz to enable household appliances to be operated.
A simple box of electronics

Can you store the energy?
Not efficently, some people off grid have banks of batteries but it's large and expensive

How is it synchronised with the town mains when you are providing them power?
A rather more complicated and expensive box of electronics.

This might be interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IELITZ2VSvk
 
  • #63
Richard111 said:
Interesting discussion on solar panels. I would like to know what is required to convert the energy from the panel to 230v at 50hz to enable household appliances to be operated.
Can you store the energy? How is it synchronised with the town mains when you are providing them power? I guess this is way off topic. Is there a thread on solar panels?

Regards Richard

Many areas do or will offer net metering. This allows you to effectively use the grid for your energy storage. When you produce more power than you use, you supply power to the grid and your meter runs backwards. When you need energy back, the meter runs forwards again. Rather than limiting the contributions to the grid and the value of the energy that you produce, as was done in the past, you simply see the net metered value on your electric bill or credit.

Wrt the issue of white roofs vs solar panels, obviously the cost is the definitive factor. Many people simply cannot afford to spend $30K-50K on solar panels. Whitewash is cheap.
 
  • #64
Richard111 said:
Interesting discussion on solar panels. I would like to know what is required to convert the energy from the panel to 230v at 50hz to enable household appliances to be operated.
Google 'inverters'
...How is it synchronised with the town mains when you are providing them power?
As mgb_phys that requires a more sophisticated inverter system, a switch between you and the town mains, and it _must_ be setup by a registered electrician.
 
  • #65
mgb_phys said:
Not efficiently, some people off grid have banks of batteries but it's large and expensive
Battery storage is efficient, the only significant loss is the DC/AC conversion (if needed) and that is small (~10%). It expensive as you say, unless used as emergency/backup power only (lead acid) where the cycle life is small.
 
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  • #66
Thank you mgb_phys, Ivan and mheslep for your response. I had to skip the U-tube tutorial as my "broadband" is too slow. I googled "inverters" and found I do not know enough to define my requirements.

This year my electricity charges have gone up 40% and the prediction is a further 25% rise by about December. As a pensioner this is not sustainable.

During winter I heat my house with LNG and find there is no problem keeping cool in summer as I live in Milford Haven.

The household appliance that works the hardest is the kettle. I find we boil at least four kettle fulls a day. I checked and note that the kettle filled to the max mark holds 1.5 litres of water and takes 3 minutes 20 seconds to boil and draws a steady 10 amps while switched on.

By using timer switches all appliances that use to remain on standby are now completely disconnected from 11pm to 7am. This, among other measures, has reduced my weekly consumption from about 70 units to 60 units. I will need to reduce my consumption by about a further 20% just to keep my monthly payments constant.

So, painting my roof white will bring no benefit whatever, and will cost for the paint, and the payback time of any sort of solar panel system that would ensure I enjoy my tea over just the summer months will be beyond my expected lifetime.

The only cost effective system for me is to install a multifuel stove. This will provide heating and cooking facilities.

We are returning to the conditions I lived under as a child during the war. Even the bath water was heated in large pans on the cast iron stove.

I am not impressed with this brave new world.
 
  • #67
mheslep said:
Battery storage is efficient, the only significant loss is the DC/AC conversion (if needed) and that is small (~10%). It expensive as you say, unless used as emergency/backup power only (lead acid) where the cycle life is small.

Lead-acid batteries are listed as being 75% - 85% efficient.
http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Sealed_Lead_Acid_Battery_Applications

In practice, efficiency is governed in large part by Peukert's Law - high rates of discharge mean less efficiency.
 
  • #68
Why not cover large uninhabited areas of the Earth by aluminium foil? Aluminium foil of thickness 0.01 mm covering 1000 by 1000 km only contains 27 million tonnes of aluminium. The price of the bauxite needed to manufacture the aluminium is only about $80 billion.
 
  • #69
a quick explanation of why white paint works to cool the planet

1 around 50 percent of sunlight is visible light

2 around 50 percent of sunlight is heat (infra red - i will call it heat for the moment)

3 visible light is a frequency of light NOT absorbed by the atmosphere

4 some HEAT (infra red) from the sun IS absorbed by the atmosphere directly (greenhouse gasses which makes the atmosphere warmer).

5 HEAT from the sun also warms the surface of the planet and this HEAT is then radiated back into the atmosphere again being absorbed by greenhouse gasses.

6 visible light is poorly absorbed by the atmosphere, some of it gets reflected back by the atmosphere (white clouds).

7 the visible light that doesn't get reflected back by the atmosphere is either reflected by the surface (eg a snow field) or absorbed by the surface (an asphalt carpark/ road). this absorbed light heats the dark surface. this heat is then radiated into the atmosphere and is absorbed by greenhouses gasses making the atmosphere warmer.

8 by painting your roof white and other surface you reflect around 50 percent of the visible energy from the sun, a significant amount of this is reflected back into space WITHOUT heating the atmosphere.

9 by painting enough roofs you make buildings cooler and cool the atmosphere. air conditioning works easier to cool houses because they are cooler, perhaps you wouldn't even need air conditioning?

if you are thinking of using white paint to cool your roof you will need a special white insulative paint that both reflects the visible frequencies of light and stops infra red frequencies from heating your roof.


white roof keep buildings cooler because less energy is absorbed by the building, with insulation even less energy makes its way into the building. the white roof reflects energy that would have otherwise heated the air above the roof and would have made the neighbourhood temperature hotter.

i remember seeing an article some time ago, an area in spain covered in white roofed greenhouses recorded slightly lower air temperatures than anywhere else in spain. if you still don't think white roofs do much, think about this, imagine if you painted all surfaces black in a city, can you imagine just how hot it would be on the streets - it might not be possible to walk the streets. the poles are not just cooleer because of the sun being at a shallower angle, the white sends a massive chunk of energy away from the area making it much cooler.
 
  • #70
Count Iblis said:
Why not cover large uninhabited areas of the Earth by aluminium foil? Aluminium foil of thickness 0.01 mm covering 1000 by 1000 km only contains 27 million tonnes of aluminium. The price of the bauxite needed to manufacture the aluminium is only about $80 billion.

Sure ! My dream. But then, by folding this Al foil into parabolic troughs and turning it into CSP plants, why not ?
 
  • #71
People who address issues of long-term climate variability by cherry-picking yearly data should be called to task. Many places in the US experienced record heat and drought and others got drowned and buried in cloud-cover for weeks. Invoking short-term variations to "disprove" long-term trends is intellectually suspect.
 
  • #72
turbo-1 said:
Invoking short-term variations to "disprove" long-term trends is intellectually suspect.
And the same is true if you replace "disprove" with "prove".
 
  • #73
Hurkyl said:
And the same is true if you replace "disprove" with "prove".
You're right. Can you see where the climate-change nay-sayers might have a weakness, using logical arguments?
 
  • #74
turbo-1 said:
You're right. Can you see where the climate-change nay-sayers might have a weakness, using logical arguments?
:confused: I don't understand the question -- too vague.



It looks to me like Ivan was saying "Hey look -- record high temperatures. See? Global warming!" to which mhsleep retorted "That's not a valid argument. Look -- record lows too! :-p"

Of course, we have no idea what Ivan and mhsleep actually meant with their two comments -- neither offer any explanation, and Ivan's doesn't obviously relate to anything over the past page or so. (mhsleep's is presumably a direct reply to whatever he thought Ivan meant)

We're supposed to have guidelines against merely posting a link and/or a quote without any further comment...
 
  • #75
HurkylI said:
t looks to me like Ivan was saying "Hey look -- record high temperatures. See? Global warming!" to which mhsleep retorted "That's not a valid argument. Look -- record lows too! :-p"
Yes that is what I meant, and how I meant it.

Hurkyl said:
We're supposed to have guidelines against merely posting a link and/or a quote without any further comment...
Yes you are right of course, deleted post.
 
  • #76
Ivan Seeking said:

Ah, yes, I had seen that elsewhere. It sounds pretty problematic to me. As I understand it, it would increase albedo of *existing cloud cover*, but that's already pretty high, so I don't know how much you can win. On the other hand, cloud cover works both ways (as "greenhouse" and as albedo) so it is not clear who wins (you also reflect back more efficiently IR radiation). Finally, you increase, at least locally, the vapor pressure of water, which is a strong greenhouse gas (although I reckon that this is not a big problem given the short duration of the water cycle).

So to me it is not obvious *what* it could do, and moreover, *what way* it would work (more or less warming) ?
 
  • #77
Skyhunter said:
The biggest carbon offset from painting your roof white is a reduction in energy expended for cooling. A lot of energy is used to heat and cool buildings. Living roofs are even better, they provide insulation, evaporative cooling, particulate scrubbing, and an environment for butterflys and other native fauna.

Yeah, this is a great idea and has a huge range of environmental benifits.

I think it is worth the fire risk and bad karma of not cleaning my gutters, but only for the environmental payoffs of course! :P
 
  • #78
Ivan Seeking said:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6366639.ece

That should read that it would yield the same benefit as removing all of the cars for 11 years...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLlxjYACa5U

If the results would be that significant, why not paint the center and edges of roads white - everything except the tire tracks?

We already have the painting equipment - just need to modify a bit. I'm sure there's some loose change in the stimulus Bill that could be diverted.
 
  • #79
I bought a white metal roof and it helps a lot in summer. It also helps to use a fan to "sample and hold" the cool night air around 4 AM. Add that to digging 10 feet down for a basement and migrating there for the summer and the result is about three days worth of air conditioning for the whole summer in West Virginia.

In winter the trombe wall helps warm the South side. I use about a fourth of the gas that others burn for heat. Electricity is normally 250 KWH/month.
 
  • #80
My car is white, i must say, its the best 'color' ever.
 
  • #81
I guess we will know if this will work when the polar ice caps melt. All that ice has a large albedo.
 
  • #82
bassplayer142 said:
I guess we will know if this will work when the polar ice caps melt. All that ice has a large albedo.

It's difficult to say. The total projected effect (there's not much reason to doubt it) comes down to 1 extra year delay. It comes down to offsetting the effect of the emissions of about 1 year. Even if there's 50% error on it, it will mean that it comes down to offsetting the effect between 6 months and 1 year and a half.
 
  • #83
Has anyone explained why we can't just paint the roads white - except for the tire track lines?
 
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